Feeling The Honesty About Heber C. Kimball

[Pahoran]

Anti-Mormons frequently rely upon manufactured quotes attributed to early church leaders. A favourite target for this kind of abuse is Heber C. Kimball. Perhaps the best known example is furnished by Ann Eliza Webb Dee Young Denning, who claimed that Kimball said, at the pulpit of the Tabernacle, "I think no more of taking [another] wife than I do of buying a cow." Arthur Conan Doyle, in a footnote(!) to A Study in Scarlet claimed that Kimball (whose name he consistently misspelled as Kemball) had described his wives as "heifers," which is probably just a mangling of the Ann Eliza fabrication.

And now we notice that Maxrep12, who is particularly exercised upon the subject of honesty -- but only when he can accuse some Latter-day Saint somewhere of not using it -- has the following in his sig:

"The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; " - Apostle Heber C. Kimball

Like most uninformed people, he assumes that "Apostle" is a title of address. Which, of course it is not and never has been.

But apart from that: Sorry Maxrep, but I'm not feeling the honesty.

If you check out this link you will discover that your signature line is bogus.

Do you care?

Regards,

Pahoran

[KevinG]

I see that unnamed sources is a tradition that goes back long before our modern political environment.

I wonder what terrible things our future critics will say about our particular Mormon desire for ten cow wives?

[DavidB]

you spelled favorite wrong.

Edited September 10, 2012 by DavidB

[Pahoran]

you spelled favorite wrong.

Not to those who read English.

Regards,

Pahoran

[maxrep12]

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110) - Brigham Young

If the above quote from BY came from a source that did not view the church with an eye of favoritism, you would fight it tooth and nail, despite it having actually occurred. The truth is, the high watermark for absolutely callous and unbelievable statements from church leaders is an "11" on a scale of 1 to 10.

The quote you have a problem with;

"The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us"

is clearly present on wikipedia. It is properly referenced. It is maintained on wikipedia, and it will remain in my signature line. The only consolation I can offer you is a cyber hankie. You're not still sore about the BYU caffeine thread are you? Hah ha!

Edited September 11, 2012 by maxrep12

[Pahoran]

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110) - Brigham Young

This is called the "throw as much mud as possible to see what sticks" approach.

Always beloved of spiteful demagogues.

If the above quote from BY came from a source that did not view the church with an eye of favoritism, you would fight it tooth and nail, despite it having actually occurred.

There is no argument to be made from the unfulfilled condition. The fact, despite your transparent attempt at deflection, is that the Kimball quote in your sig is not authentic and you know it.

The truth is, the high watermark for absolutely callous and unbelievable statements from church leaders is an "11" on a scale of 1 to 10.

The fact that you assert it is evidence that it is not the truth.

The quote you have a problem with;

"The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us"

is clearly present on wikipedia. It is properly referenced.

To Ann Eliza Webb Dee Young Denning's book. There is no primary source for it, because Kimball never said it.

It is maintained on wikipedia, and it will remain in my signature line.

So "honesty" is not something you have any interest in practicing yourself; merely something you wish to preach to others.

Thank you for admitting your brazen hypocrisy.

Regards,

Pahoran

[maxrep12]

I think your frustration level is getting a touch high, no need to be nasty.

Here is an idea, email wikipedia and let them know there has been a misunderstanding on the matter. Also, I hear that anyone can edit wiki. If you can convince them, you have convinced me. I will then remove my existing sig line, and replace it with a quote from BY. I'll even let you approve it before hand.

But maybe don't use, "There is no primary source for it, because Kimball never said it". Thats not going to hold water with anyone.

Edited September 11, 2012 by maxrep12

[Pahoran]

I think your frustration level is getting a touch high, no need to be nasty.

Physician, heal thyself.

If you're going to get on your high, preachy horse about "honesty" then you need to practice a little yourself. It's as simple as that.

Here is an idea, email wikipedia and let them know there has been a misunderstanding on the matter. Also, I hear that anyone can edit wiki. If you can convince them, you have convinced me.

Here is what Wikipedia says:

Ann Eliza Young, a long-time critic of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, alleged that later in a sermon given from the Salt Lake Tabernacle, Kimball declared, "I think no more of taking [another] wife than I do of buying a cow." One LDS scholar has argued that Ann Eliza fabricated the quote, since it cannot be corroborated by any other source, including the extensive (though not comprehensive) record of early Mormon sermons in the Journal of Discourses.

The fact, Max, is that you didn't care about whether there was any truth to the claim or not, did you? You just liked it for its tabloid value, didn't you?

I will then remove my existing sig line, and replace it with a quote from BY. I'll even let you approve it before hand.

Don't implicate me in your bumper-sticker polemics. Since presentism is fundamentally dishonest, we can all understand why it appeals to you.

But maybe don't use, "There is no primary source for it, because Kimball never said it". Thats not going to hold water with anyone.

Tough luck.

Kimball never said it. That's why there is no primary source for it.

And I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn that that's why you prefer that quote to others which, you admit, would be equally polemically useful. Its inauthenticity makes it all the more attractive to you, doesn't it?

Regards,

Pahoran

[maxrep12]

This is called the "throw as much mud as possible to see what sticks" approach.

Always beloved of spiteful demagogues.

Judging by your response, I'd say the mudball caught you square on the eye.

[maxrep12]

From wiki

Shortage of wives caused by plural marriage

Richard Abanes argues that polygamy may have caused a shortage of brides in the early LDS community.^[19] The New York Times reported in 1860 that church leader Heber C. Kimball stated (in an address to departing missionaries):

Brethren, I want you to understand that it is not to be as it has been heretofore. The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; hereafter you have to bring them all here before taking any of them, and let us all have a fair shake.

[20]

Apologists^[who?] dispute the accuracy of the quote^{[citation needed]}, as it cannot be corroborated by a second source such as the extensive (though incomplete) record of discourses in the Journal of Discourses.

Pahoran, please note that there is a "citation needed"(This claim needs references to reliable sources) directly following the statement, "Apologists dispute the accuracy of the quote".

Apologists have not made a valid arguement. Kimball's quote is sourced though.

You do understand, don't you, that not personally liking a source does not negate what the source confirms? Please tell me you get this?

If you really thought your position was solid, you would be working on editing wikipedia. As a consolation gift to yourself, you have been reduced to pounding sand in calling me dishonest.

[Pahoran]

From wiki

Pahoran, please note that there is a "citation needed"(This claim needs references to reliable sources) directly following the statement, "Apologists dispute the accuracy of the quote".

Apologists have not made a valid arguement. Kimball's quote is sourced though.

I note that while you referred vaguely to "Wiki" you didn't provide a link. There are several Wikipedia articles with overlapping content; your quote appears to refer to this one.

Kimball's alleged "quote" is sourced thus: firstly, to Stanley P. Hirshson's biography of Brigham Young, The Lion of the Lord. This is a book that was described by non-Mormon scholar Jan Shipps as "dreadful," and which received an MHA award for being the worst biography ever published.

Hirshson sourced the "quote" from the New York Times of May 15 1860. The quote is introduced thus:

"Some time ago HEBER KIMBALL was lecturing some missionaries who were preparing to start out on foreign missions, in the Tabernacle, and said to them:"

Then comes the salacious passage attributed to Heber C. Kimball, which is followed by the following bit of moralising:

"The old reprobate then had at least a score of women whom he called wives."

No indication is given regarding who claimed to have heard Kimball's statement. The byline on the article is simply "From Our Own Correspondents."

IOW, this is, at best, anonymous gossip.

I wish to draw attention to the fact that the statement was alleged to have been made "some time ago," and that Kimball "then had at least a score of" plural wives. These allusions suggest that a period of years may have passed between the "correspondents" hearing whatever they thought Kimball said and reporting it to the NYT.

A survey of 19th century newspaper reports on Mormons and Mormonism shows that considerable liberties were taken, especially after the exodus to Utah. If the above Kimball "quote" is not an outright fabrication, it may be a garbled memory of the following, which was said in 1855:

Let truth and righteousness be your motto; and do not go into the world for anything else but to preach the Gospel, build up the kingdom of God, and gather the sheep into the fold. You are sent out as shepherds to gather the sheep together; and remember that they are not your sheep: they belong to Him that sends you. Then do not make a choice of any of those sheep; do not make selections before they are brought home and put into the fold. You understand that. Amen.

Some have supposed that the sentence beginning "You are sent out" means the same as the inauthentic "prettiest women" quote. However, Kimball went on to say, in the very same talk:

The principle of plurality of wives never will be done away. Some sisters have had revelations that when this time passes away and they go through the veil every woman will have a husband to herself. I wish more of our young men would take to themselves wives of the daughters of Zion and not wait for us old men to take them all; go-ahead upon the right principle young gentlemen and God bless you forever and ever and make you fruitful, that we may fill the mountains and then the earth with righteous inhabitants. That is my prayer, and that is my blessing upon all the saints and upon your posterity after you, for ever: Amen.

There is no reliable record of Heber C. Kimball saying anything similar to what has been attributed to him. In fact, his confirmed statements actually contradict it.

The "Apologist" argument is entirely valid. The Kimball quote is clearly not authentic; as such, it is unavailable to those who wish to make a good-faith representation of his views on any subject, and especially those who wish to moralise on the subject of "honesty."

You do understand, don't you, that not personally liking a source does not negate what the source confirms? Please tell me you get this?

Certainly I get it. Just as I hope you get the fact that personally liking a source because it appeals to your prejudices does not make it authentic.

If you really thought your position was solid, you would be working on editing wikipedia. As a consolation gift to yourself, you have been reduced to pounding sand in calling me dishonest.

I suggest you take another look at the Wikipedia article upon which you rely.

Regards,

Pahoran