Heresy In Modern Theology?

[EllenMaksoud]

I've been struggling with and have developed quite strongly emotional feelings in regard to one area of theology, and that is with imagining ourselves as "Christian Soldiers". I am not now, never was and never plan to be, in any sense of the word a "Soldier of God". The idea is repulsive to me. In fact I really dislike the idea that a loving Heavenly Father would ever turn one of us over to satan to "sift us", and If I ever became close to being angry with God it would be to protest Luke 22:31 and what happened in the book of Job.  I fully realize that Heavenly Father is the one who can do as he wishes, but I would like to protest full stop.

 

My own view of myself is that we walk meekly and thankfully before God, being ready to give a full account as in 1 Peter 3:15.

 

 

[Freedom]

Being a parent of adult children, it is necessary to turn our children over to Satan to be sifted, as it were. At some point they have to face the consequences of their actions and not be protected by their parents any more. The soldier reference is in the battle against sin, fighting against satan. But if someone willingly joins the other side, they must be left to sufferer the consequences. If we do not face the consequences of our actions we will never know good from evil.

[mfbukowski]

Well, fear not, because I have not seen much of that in Mormon theology.  There is one Protestant hymn which of course has ended up in our hymnals and there is talk especially among the youth about the "armies of Helaman" but it is all strictly figurative, in regard to being courageous in the face of temptation..

 

We are not jihadists 

[Calm]

"Armies of Helaman" is a missionary song in fact:

 

http://www.lds.org/music/library/childrens-songbook/well-bring-the-world-his-truth-army-of-helaman?lang=eng

 

 

Lyrics

1. 1. We have been born, as Nephi of old,
   To goodly parents who love the Lord.
   We have been taught, and we understand,
   That we must do as the Lord commands.
2. 2. We have been saved for these latter days
   To build the kingdom in righteous ways.
   We hear the words our prophet declares:
   "Let each who's worthy go forth and share."
3. 3. We know his plan, and we will prepare,
   Increase our knowledge through study and prayer.
   Daily we'll learn until we are called
   To take the gospel to all the world.
4. Chorus
   We are as the army of Helaman.
   We have been taught in our youth.
   And we will be the Lord's missionaries
   To bring the world his truth.

Edited September 11, 2013 by calmoriah

[EllenMaksoud]

I have an EFI CD that has "Onward Christian Soldiers" on it and plan to erase that song from it.  I have just experienced so much violence that ...

Edited September 11, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[ERayR]

 

"Armies of Helaman" is a missionary song in fact:

 

http://www.lds.org/music/library/childrens-songbook/well-bring-the-world-his-truth-army-of-helaman?lang=eng

 

 

 

Lyrics

1. 1. We have been born, as Nephi of old,
   To goodly parents who love the Lord.
   We have been taught, and we understand,
   That we must do as the Lord commands.
2. 2. We have been saved for these latter days
   To build the kingdom in righteous ways.
   We hear the words our prophet declares:
   "Let each who's worthy go forth and share."
3. 3. We know his plan, and we will prepare,
   Increase our knowledge through study and prayer.
   Daily we'll learn until we are called
   To take the gospel to all the world.
4. Chorus
   We are as the army of Helaman.
   We have been taught in our youth.
   And we will be the Lord's missionaries
   To bring the world his truth.

 

 

And a rousing song it is to encourage our youth to greater resolution to steadfastness in the gospel.

[EllenMaksoud]

Being a parent of adult children, it is necessary to turn our children over to Satan to be sifted, as it were. At some point they have to face the consequences of their actions and not be protected by their parents any more. The soldier reference is in the battle against sin, fighting against satan. But if someone willingly joins the other side, they must be left to sufferer the consequences. If we do not face the consequences of our actions we will never know good from evil.

I never felt less like a soldier than the day I had to throw my 18 year old daughter out.

[The Nehor]

Is it ethical to employ WMDs in the war on sin?

[thesometimesaint]

EllenMaksoud:

 

I too intensely dislike war metaphors when used in a gospel setting. We do have to protect ourselves and loved ones from harm, be it physical, or spiritual. But I take no pleasure doing it.

[The Nehor]

EllenMaksoud:

 

I too intensely dislike war metaphors when used in a gospel setting. We do have to protect ourselves and loved ones from harm, be it physical, or spiritual. But I take no pleasure doing it.

I congratulate you on your successful war against your impulses for war.

[EllenMaksoud]

EllenMaksoud:

 

I too intensely dislike war metaphors when used in a gospel setting. We do have to protect ourselves and loved ones from harm, be it physical, or spiritual. But I take no pleasure doing it.

I have faced violators with my weapon twice and fortunately they heeded the warning of the open barrel, one of them by an immeasurable amount of time.  Now, the biggest conflict is how do folk in that position manage the emotions that follow, almost taking a life. Worse yet, how does one cope with taking multiple lives in the line of duty? Those who have not killed and have not talked to those who have had to do so ... It seems impossible now that I would ever be in an imminent threat situation again.

[williamsmith]

I'm not sure the issue here?

 

The word "soldier" in the religious context is being soldiers in the army of God and of Light.

Even in the War in Heaven it's described in those terms.

Also, the battle against the powers and principalities of darkness in this world is described in those terms.

 

This is all scriptural, so I'm not sure the heresy here?

The only heresy that I can see would be to take it beyond the intent and be like Fanatical Islam, which would indeed be heresy.

 

Remember, even soldiers love, have feelings, family, etc.  A soldier is one who gives his life and lays down his life for those he loves.

There is no greater cause than we lay down our lives, in whatever way that is for another.

So, I think you're simply taking it to literally, it is a metaphor to describe a very true and real thing.

There are sides in the war between good and evil in the world and within ourselves, thus in that sense yes we are soldiers if we stand for something.

[cdowis]

There is one truly warlike hymn -- "Battle Hymn of the Republic".  That was used by the Yankee soldiers as they attacked the Confederate homeland... as they took away our rights .... as they...

Anyway, as a Southerner, I find it very offensive that we glory in the Northern victory ("Glory, glory, hallelujah!").  It's been 150 years and the wounds are still fresh.

Edited September 11, 2013 by cdowis

[The Nehor]

There is one truly warlike hymn -- "Battle Hymn of the Republic".  That was used by the Yankee soldiers as they attacked the Confederate homeland... as they took away our rights .... as they...

Anyway, as a Southerner, I find it very offensive that we glory in the Northern victory ("Glory, glory, hallelujah!").  It's been 150 years and the wounds are still fresh.

I too am still bitter about losing the right to own people. Northern fascists!!!!!!!

[rpn]

Satan only has power over human beings to the extent that human beings give him power.   When the scriptures refer to turning satan loose after the millenium, what they refer to is that Satan will again be able to tempt and disrupt and because some will surrender their agency to him, others who don't will go through tough things too.  (No different to what happens now.

 

I do not think the gospel of jesus christ requires violence, and at least in todays world where government is not theocracy, the gospel is not about justice either.   So I see no problem at all with being troubled by the Onward Christian Soldiers hymn, if one cannot see it as a mere metaphor of doing all within one's power to find and so what is right.

[thesometimesaint]

I have faced violators with my weapon twice and fortunately they heeded the warning of the open barrel, one of them by an immeasurable amount of time.  Now, the biggest conflict is how do folk in that position manage the emotions that follow, almost taking a life. Worse yet, how does one cope with taking multiple lives in the line of duty? Those who have not killed and have not talked to those who have had to do so ... It seems impossible now that I would ever be in an imminent threat situation again.

 

I've looked down the wrong end of more than one barrel. Killing is easy. It's over in a matter of seconds. We never know just how it will efffect us. For me it was a long grieving process. Finally it was just acceptance that I did what had to be done to protect myself and friends. There is no glory in death, or in dealing out death, just absolute necessity when all other options fail.

[pogi]

EllenMaksoud:

 

I too intensely dislike war metaphors when used in a gospel setting. We do have to protect ourselves and loved ones from harm, be it physical, or spiritual. But I take no pleasure doing it.

 

No righteous person takes pleasure in war, but he will also not cower away either.   "We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places (Ephesians 6:12)."

[ERayR]

Is it ethical to employ WMDs in the war on sin?

 

 

Why do you want to destroy Mass.  Leave the Catholics alone.

[thesometimesaint]

No righteous person takes pleasure in war, but he will also not cower away either.   "We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places (Ephesians 6:12)."

 

I'm not a pacifist, but I do need a very good reason to take up arms against a fellow human being. It is oh so eay to claim the moral high ground of our own selfrighteousness. Then sing songs rationizing it. Thereby salving our conscience. Satan truly does rule with blood and horror. "Every step disarms a foeman. Every step we conquering go" (Sing it loud; Hack off the arms of all those in our way. Flash our bloody swords. Make them bleed. Till all are beneath our feet). The glorious horror of it all.

[The Nehor]

I miss the good old days when you could go around screaming, "Die Heretic!"

[smac97]

I've been struggling with and have developed quite strongly emotional feelings in regard to one area of theology, and that is with imagining ourselves as "Christian Soldiers". I am not now, never was and never plan to be, in any sense of the word a "Soldier of God".

Please explain how you define the term "Soldier of God."

The idea is repulsive to me.

Please explain why. The repulsiveness of the concept is not evident to me.

In fact I really dislike the idea that a loving Heavenly Father would ever turn one of us over to satan to "sift us", and If I ever became close to being angry with God it would be to protest Luke 22:31 and what happened in the book of Job.

God sent us all here to be tempted and tested ("sifted") with trials. And we came here by choice.

It appears, then, that you are objecting to one of the core functions of the Plan of Salvation. Facing trials and adversity is what we are supposed to do in this life. Are you suggesting otherwise? Or am I misunderstanding you?

I fully realize that Heavenly Father is the one who can do as he wishes, but I would like to protest full stop.

Joseph Smith taught that to acquire faith unto salvation one needs a correct idea of God’s character, perfections, and attributes. Once we do that, we will have a hard time protesting against God, since God's conduct is always right. We will then need to examine, and correct, whatever misperception we have in our reasoning that has lead us to protest against God.

My own view of myself is that we walk meekly and thankfully before God, being ready to give a full account as in 1 Peter 3:15.

I agree. But you seem to think that this antithetical to being a "Soldier of God." Please first provide your definition of this term, and we can see if that contradiction holds out.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

I have an EFI CD that has "Onward Christian Soldiers" on it and plan to erase that song from it.  I have just experienced so much violence that ...

Do you believe this hymn is a call to literal soldiering? Here are the lyrics:

1. Onward, Christian soldiers!

Marching as to war,

With the cross of Jesus

Going on before.

Christ, the royal Master,

Leads against the foe;

Forward into battle,

See his banners go!

(Chorus)

Onward, Christian soldiers!

Marching as to war,

With the cross of Jesus

Going on before.

2. At the sign of triumph

Satan's host doth flee;

On, then, Christian soldiers,

On to victory.

Hell's foundations quiver

At the shout of praise;

Brothers, lift your voices,

Loud your anthems raise.

 

3. Like a mighty army

Moves the Church of God;

Brothers, we are treading

Where the Saints have trod.

We are not divided;

All one body we:

One in hope and doctrine,

One in charity.

4. Onward, then, ye people;

Join our happy throng.

Blend with ours your voices

In the triumph song:

Glory, laud, and honor

Unto Christ, the King.

This through countless ages

Men and angels sing.

 

Please note the emphasized words above.  They mark the hymn as purely figurative.  May I suggest that you review the text of Ephesians 6, which is Paul's description of the "Armour of God."  He describes implements of war as purely figurative representations of spiritual concepts (loins girt about with truth, breastplate of righteousness, shield of faith, etc.).  In particular, he states in verse 12 that "we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."  It is this context - a metaphorical spiritual "war," that Ephesians 6 is given.  I think we can likewise interpret "Onward Christian Soldiers" in the same way.

 

As a former soldier, I count myself fortunate that I was never called upon to take a life.  But I trained for it, and I was ready to do it.  Even now, I would be willing to do violence to protect my family or other innocents.  I do not think that makes me a bad person.  To the contrary, we are commanded to defend our families "even unto bloodshed" (Alma 43: 47), and we are told that "all men are justified in defending themselves" (D&C 134:11).  In certain circumstances, passivity may be the course God wants us to take (the Anti-Nephi-Lehies, for example, or the constraints placed on Alma in Alma 14).  However, in the main, violence in defense of self or family is justified.  We all of us, at this moment, are free to be on this message board writing our thoughts because - to paraphrase George Orwell - there are rough men stand ready to do violence on our behalf.  That is the state we live in while in this Telestial sphere.  

 

There will be a time when soldiers will not be necessary.  When men like Captain Moroni will be called upon to till the earth rather than shed blood in the defense of others.  I look forward to that day, but I do not fault those men and women who have taken upon themselves the solemn and unpleasant duty of doing violence on our behalf if necessary.  

 

One last thought: Perhaps you could also review Alma chapters 43-44, with a particular emphasis on Alma 44:1.  Captain Moroni took a breather from the work of death to tell the objects of that work that the Nephites "do not desire to be men of blood," and that they "do not desire to slay" the Lamanites.  In my view, this passages describes one of the bravest and clearest acts of pure righteousness in the history of the world.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

Edited September 11, 2013 by smac97

[thesometimesaint]

A famous soldier once said: "War is Hell". Whom resides in Hell? Satan and his angels.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I too am still bitter about losing the right to own people. Northern fascists!!!!!!!

Northern Fascists? I genuinely don't get it.

[The Nehor]

Northern Fascists? I genuinely don't get it.

Just start yelling about how the South will rise again. It will eventually make sense,