A Layman'S Understanding Of The Divine Council'S Relevance To Lds Apologetics

[boblloyd91]

So I know that the council of Gods is an important part of the Book of Abraham, as well as part of our understanding of the Godhead. My question is, how solid is the evidence of Israel being Polytheistic? If so how do we know this isn't an example of Israel "going after different gods"? I think this is something I don't understand very well

[cdowis]

The Great Council is not a polytheistic construct.

[boblloyd91]

The Great Council is not a polytheistic construct.

Okay, i guess that's one thing that's good to know that I didn't think about before. The impression that I get from what little I've read is that the evidence is showing more and more that the ancient Israelites were either Polytheistic of Henotheistic. Is this an accurate understanding? Could anyone shed some light on this for me?

[Robert F. Smith]

So I know that the council of Gods is an important part of the Book of Abraham, as well as part of our understanding of the Godhead. My question is, how solid is the evidence of Israel being Polytheistic? If so how do we know this isn't an example of Israel "going after different gods"? I think this is something I don't understand very well

Knowing that there are lots of gods out there (an infinity of them in LDS theology) doesn't mean that one worships them. As Brother Brigham said in April of 1852, in a sermon in Salt Lake City, that, of the various deities which exist, one "is our father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do" (Journal of Discourses, 1:50; cf. Paul in I Cor 8:5-6).

Something similar can be found in Hugh W. Nibley, Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri, 1st ed., 132, where he cites the German version of Eric Hornung's Conceptions of God in Ancient Egypt: The One and the Many, 57-58, quoting Henri Frankfort on the meaning of the name-juggling confusion in ancient Egypt: "'the god' is always 'the god with whom you have to reckon under the circumstances'" (Nibley translation from p. 47 of German edition).

The prophets of ancient Israel spent a good deal of time inveighing against Israelite worship of Canaanite and other gods, but they never suggested that the assembly of the gods of the Council in Heaven presented a problem since it is hierarchically directed.

[cdowis]

John 17:19-23 explains that there is "one God" but there are multiple entities. The followers of Christ share the oneness in the same way as Christ is one with the Father.

Rev 3 [21] To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Edited August 13, 2013 by cdowis

[CV75]

So I know that the council of Gods is an important part of the Book of Abraham, as well as part of our understanding of the Godhead. My question is, how solid is the evidence of Israel being Polytheistic? If so how do we know this isn't an example of Israel "going after different gods"? I think this is something I don't understand very well

I'm not sure what you mean by "polytheistic," but I just happened to read this in this month's BYU magazine:

Jehovah Elohim, “Lord God”

“Lord God” in Hebrew is YHWH Elohim or Jehovah Elohim. The –im at the end of Elohim indicates a plural word (see also the Hebrew cherubim, seraphim, urim, and thummim). Elohim literally means “gods.” Some non-LDS biblical scholars maintain that Jehovah originates from the Hebrew “to be” verb (but a causative form); thus Jehovah Elohim, some scholars assert, may be translated “He will cause to be Elohim,” meaning, “He will cause gods to be.” For Latter-day Saints, this literal translation of “Lord God” is significant because of our doctrine; the translation signifies that the Lord is a creator of gods or the idea that females and males in mortality can become like God in eternity. “Lord God” is found hundreds of times in the Old Testament.

[Kevin Christensen]

So I know that the council of Gods is an important part of the Book of Abraham, as well as part of our understanding of the Godhead. My question is, how solid is the evidence of Israel being Polytheistic? If so how do we know this isn't an example of Israel "going after different gods"? I think this is something I don't understand very well

You could try David Bokovoy here:

http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2010-David-Bokovoy.pdf

Well, William Dever, the worlds most renowned American biblical archaeologist, in a very

exciting book entitled “ Did God have a Wife” gives us this kind of summary of where we are at

from an academic perspective. “A generation ago when I was graduate student, biblical scholars

were nearly unanimous in thinking that monotheism, the belief in a single God, of course, had

been predominant in ancient Israelite religion from the beginning. Abraham and Moses and so

forth, alright “not just as an ideal” states Dever, “but as the reality”.

Today all that has changed, virtually all mainstream scholars and even a few conservatives he

knows, and I have to go so far as to state that in my experience, one would be hard pressed to

find a contemporary biblical scholar who does not recognize this point at least at some level. All

that has changed. Virtually all the scholars acknowledge that true monotheism emerged only in

the period of the exile in Babylon in the 6th century BC.

As the canon of the Hebrew Bible was taking shape, the canon, not the books themselves,

because the books themselves clearly point to this concept of a multiplicity of gods who

governed the affairs of the universe. “I have suggested” states Dever, “along with most scholars,

that the emergence of monotheism of exclusive Yahwehism was largely a response to the tragic

experience of the exile”.

There is much more, so the talk is very much worth reading.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Visiting Lawrence, KS

[cdowis]

I'm not sure what you mean by "polytheistic," but I just happened to read this in this month's BYU magazine:

Jehovah Elohim, “Lord God”

etc

I am aware of this, but not sure of your point. I am using polytheistic in the sense of the OP, and trying to clarify its meaning.

Do you agree with me, disagree, or just trying to impress with something totally irrevelant.

Edited August 13, 2013 by cdowis

[LordUther]

You might want to delve into Nibley's Temple & Cosmos, he goes into the Council in Heaven in various articles in that book.

You can read it free OL here:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=103

[CV75]

I am aware of this, but not sure of your point. I am using polytheistic in the sense of the OP, and trying to clarify its meaning.

Do you agree with me, disagree, or just trying to impress with something totally irrevelant.

I was replying to the OP, post#1, not to your response in post #2. Hopefully that clarification will adress the remainder of your consternation.

[Ahab]

So I know that the council of Gods is an important part of the Book of Abraham, as well as part of our understanding of the Godhead. My question is, how solid is the evidence of Israel being Polytheistic? If so how do we know this isn't an example of Israel "going after different gods"? I think this is something I don't understand very well

When thinking of the term "Gods" or "gods" it might help if you think in terms of persons who are God, instead.

There is only one kind of being which is the most supreme kind of being in all of existence, but that God consists of many persons.

Some are good, like our Father and Jesus Christ, and some others are evil, like Satan and others like him.

[Calm]

some others are evil, like Satan and others like him.

Are you suggesting that Satan is part of the God community?

[Ahab]

Are you suggesting that Satan is part of the God community?

I'm suggesting Satan is the same kind of being as our Father in heaven, the kind of being we usually refer to as God.

The word "God" has multiple meanings, ya know.

Sometimes we use the word "God" to refer to our Father in heaven, and sometimes we use the same word to refer to another person who is the same kind of being he is. Usually another person who is as good as he is, but also to people like us who are not perfected as he is, yet, or ever will be. And yes, Satan is a person who is the same kind of being, or of the same species as our Father in heaven, even though he is evil.

Basic stuff, really. Maybe you just don't normally think about it that way.

[Calm]

I think Satan has forfeited the right to be called such.

[Robert F. Smith]

I think Satan has forfeited the right to be called such.

St. Paul called Satan "the god of this world" (II Cor 4:4; cf. Eph 6:12), a phrase which you should recognize from elsewhere, in an esoteric context.

In order to better understand who he is, you might want to take a look at my “Śaṭan: Notes on the Gods,” 2012 (version 2), online at

http://www.scribd.com/lighthorseharry/d/58985133-Satan-Notes-on-the-Gods .

[Robert F. Smith]

Okay, i guess that's one thing that's good to know that I didn't think about before. The impression that I get from what little I've read is that the evidence is showing more and more that the ancient Israelites were either Polytheistic of Henotheistic. Is this an accurate understanding? Could anyone shed some light on this for me?

or summotheistic?

[Tacenda]

St. Paul called Satan "the god of this world" (II Cor 4:4; cf. Eph 6:12), a phrase which you should recognize from elsewhere, in an esoteric context.

In order to better understand who he is, you might want to take a look at my “Śaṭan: Notes on the Gods,” 2012 (version 2), online at

http://www.scribd.com/lighthorseharry/d/58985133-Satan-Notes-on-the-Gods .

That's why it bothers me that we take Satan's side and agree that Eve did the right thing to have partaken of the fruit. Where the rest of Christianity believes she did the wrong thing in listening to Satan. This is always something I worry over. Like maybe God really doesn't want us believing we can be Gods one day. Because maybe we won't. And maybe since we believe that, we are in cahoots with the devil. This scares me all the time, that no matter how we act on earth, this belief we have, will destroy us.

[Kevin Christensen]

Tacenda,

You might like to read Margaret Barker's On Earth as it is in Heaven.

Now Wisdom in the Old Testament was regarded in two very different ways; the reformers were suspicious of Wisdom but the older religion of Israel seems to have recognised that Wisdom, i.e., the Spirit, transformed human beings and made them like God. Paul said the same thing in Romans 8:14—17: if the Spirit of God dwells in you, you are sons of God. The serpent in Eden was right; knowledge, that is, Wisdom did make human beings god-like. The problem was: was it a good thing for human beings to be god-like, to be sons of God? Those who reformed Israel's religion set themselves against all these ideas, and that is the real root of the difference between Christianity and Judaism. The Christians were not afraid to describe themselves as sons of God.

Barker,

On Earth as It Is in Heaven, 31

Here's another note on the Divine Council, taking cues from research by Kevin Barney.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Considering_Joseph_Smith/Abuse_of_a_Bible_test

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[Tacenda]

Tacenda,

You might like to read Margaret Barker's On Earth as it is in Heaven.

Barker,

On Earth as It Is in Heaven, 31

Here's another note on the Divine Council, taking cues from research by Kevin Barney.

http://en.fairmormon...of_a_Bible_test

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

Thanks Kevin, I was going to delete my post because it may have come across as crass. But glad I heard your input and appreciate that you didn't slam me to the floor for saying it. I could probably deal with the history and other things in the church that I don't like and live happily ever after in it, but that one scenario keeps me in limbo of being in or out.

[theplains]

That's why it bothers me that we take Satan's side and agree that Eve did the right thing to have partaken of the fruit. Where the rest of Christianity believes she did the wrong thing in listening to Satan.

 

Why do you believe God told Adam and Eve not to eat from that tree?

 

Thanks,

Jim