Its Goin' Down

[rpn]

You don't have to accept gay marriage, to accept people in your ward who happen to be together and gay. Sure that isn't okay, but so are a lot of other things people in the congregation are doing. There wouldn't be anyone there if the only time we went to church was when we are sin free.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Oh how I love your posts, Pa Pa.

Thank you and congratulations.

I have learned that the key to a happy marriage...mine has been 38 years, is to learn this simple phrase.

"Yes Dear"

[Damien the Leper]

Valentinus;

I honestly do not think it is necessary or even appropriate here and now to make this thread into a "Bible bash", so, with that said I intend to do this one follow up and leave it be for now. The Bible absolutely makes one's salvation gender based. Adam and Eve were created, as were all living things to multiply. I the beginning, Adam had to listen to Eve and then after the Fall Eve had to listen to Adam who had to listen to the Lord. Man and woman need each other to progress fully in Christ. The nature of man and woman is endowed power of creation. That is God's power, or at least, a portion of it. To deny that power is to deny "becoming God" which, in turn, is to deny "all the Father has" for oneself.

Keep up your prayers and keep open to the Spirit.

Take care and God bless.

Genesis 1 isn't about gender. It was about aloneness. I can see how that is easily misunderstood.

[Damien the Leper]

Thank you and congratulations.

I have learned that the key to a happy marriage...mine has been 38 years, is to learn this simple phrase.

"Yes Dear"

Hmph! If I could get him to follow through on that phrase then he would stop leaving his shoes and socks in the middle of my living room floor when he comes over to hang out.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Hmph! If I could get him to follow through on that phrase then he would stop leaving his shoes and socks in the middle of my living room floor when he comes over to hang out.

"Yes dear, please. Say is sheepishly.

[Darren10]

Genesis 1 isn't about gender. It was about aloneness. I can see how that is easily misunderstood.

My reading is that it's also about "multiplying" on the earth. Also, my previous citation about a man and woman in Christ was from Paul's teachings. Since you reject modern-day revelation,perhaps the traditional view o. Women is more along your thinking. Valerie Hudson has a lot to say about that. She's not "anti" any faith but neither does she hold back on her punches.

http://squaretwo.org/Sq2ArticleHudsonAppeal.html

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I can't express joy over this.

I truly feel sorry for you.

It does engender mixed feelings (no pun intended) but we can be happy he is. I have a Gay child and would only wish for her to know the joy of marriage as God has ordained, but it is not to be.So my second wish is for her to be happy, she loving, respectful, believing and my baby girl.

[Darren10]

but it is not to be.

Huh? Why not? I can understand that your daughter may choose something else but it's just that, a choice. It is not to be only because she chooses it not to be and you her father loves her regardless. That I understand perfectly and I think I'd react the same as you. But to treat her choices as equal to that of aligning those choices with that of God's plan of salvation is a fallacy. Also, as easily as your daughter choosing not to follow God the solution is just as simple: choose to follow God.

Now, "yes, dear"? What's that?

[ERayR]

Okay...since you've kind of open the conversation for it...a little advice: I am certain you understand the consequences of what your actions mean when it comes to LDS belief and policies and you are not doing this on an impulse but because you believe it is the right thing to do so there is no need for a lecture outlining all of that.

As for the rest with your family....

It is going to be tough. It is easier for us as we are 'long distance' and not relatives that have known you all your life and had expectations about you. I can honestly say "I hope you are happy" to everyone because I sincerely hope that people will have lives with as little of unnecessary suffering as possible and it is not my place to make decisions for others. I don't know their experiences or what has led them to where they are so how can I condemn them...and why would I want to? Wishing the best for someone doesn't mean automatic acceptance of every choice they make...I don't even accept all of my own choices as the right ones and I certainly wish only the best for myself, lol.

Try to remember that if there is negative stuff that happens with your close friends and family it is because they love you and want you to have happiness and they don't want you to miss out on any blessings and they may be afraid that you won't be happy or that you might not receive them. Fear makes us do very stupid things even while it makes us pretend we are not doing it out of fear to add layers of protection.

And work at keeping yourself open to the Spirit so that you will know where God wants to lead you because that will be the best road eventually to pure happiness and joy even if at times it feels like a heartache that will never end. And the Spirit will also help you be patient and forgive others who are less than understanding and help yourself be more understanding of others.

You know all this, I am only saying it to remind you to think about it a lot as it should help prepare you for no matter what comes, good or bad.

What cal said. And I do hope you find happiness. This coming from someone who has a couple of non-traditional relationships in his family.

[ERayR]

Sure, they should accept people regardless. They might not accept it in the temple, but the ward building shouldn't be off limits to a gay couple, should it? Now enough about that, I don't want to take away from Val's announcement. But fear I've said too much.

IMNSHO it would be better to find a congregation that embraces SSM rather than to be an irritant to one which does not. The experience is usually much more conducive to reverential worship.

[strappinglad]

Hmph! If I could get him to follow through on that phrase then he would stop leaving his shoes and socks in the middle of my living room floor when he comes over to hang out.

The more things change, the more they stay the same ! ..... It should be noted that in some countries there is now a stern and often deadly backlash to homosexuals and the GLBT agenda.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Huh? Why not? I can understand that your daughter may choose something else but it's just that, a choice. It is not to be only because she chooses it not to be and you her father loves her regardless. That I understand perfectly and I think I'd react the same as you. But to treat her choices as equal to that of aligning those choices with that of God's plan of salvation is a fallacy. Also, as easily as your daughter choosing not to follow God the solution is just as simple: choose to follow God.

Now, "yes, dear"? What's that?

Yes dear was a ole to someone I have known of different sites. Nothing I said means I believe SSM is equal or othe same value as traditional marriage. Just noting that it is not in the cards for my daughter. I would love it is she (my daughter) were in a traditional marriage. But no Gay person should marry the other gender, it would end badly. One of my best friends I have ever had was married to another great friend, together they had five kids. He served in very high callings in Ward and Stake for 25 years. He walked away from it all to be a man. My daughter does not attend Church unless I ask, but she simply says, yes sir. I call upon her to pray many Sundays...as we have dinner with all our kids and grandkids ever week. She seeks blessing from all the time. She does believe in Heavenly Father and loves the Church, help sponsor her little brother on a mission. In addition she can make me laugh more than anyone. She can quote much of my poetry better than I can. Also Val knows my position and understands.

Getting long winded...but I hope this helps clarify my comments.

[Darren10]

Thank you and congratulations.

I have learned that the key to a happy marriage...mine has been 38 years, is to learn this simple phrase.

"Yes Dear"

Papa;

Above is what I had in mind when I said that equating gay marriage to traditional marriage in happiness being a fallacy. I did not have in mind what you said regarding your daughter your equating homosexual relationships with heterosexual relationships. In fact, you did say clearly that your desire was for your daughter to have a good traditional marriage. What confused me was your saying, "it was not meant to be", regarding your daughter having a marital relation with a male. To me that connotated that no matter what, she won't have one. While I do not think that was what you meant to say exactly, I still wanted to outright reject that implication of your statement.

[strappinglad]

I am beginning to consider the idea that gender falls on a bell curve for each . 95 % of humans fall in the ' male' or 'female' center 3 standard deviations but there are outliers for each gender. It is kind of like the bell curve for height. Most men fall within 3 standard deviations of the average. There are ,however, some very short men and some very tall ones. These men may try to compensate by shoe choice or medical procedures but in the end they are what they are. (One should not try to stretch the analogy too far.)

[Calm]

The more things change, the more they stay the same ! ..... It should be noted that in some countries there is now a stern and often deadly backlash to homosexuals and the GLBT agenda.

Because they leave their socks and shoes in the middle of the living room?...

Sorry, it just seemed the natural progression of the discussion.

[Calm]

I am beginning to consider the idea that gender falls on a bell curve for each . 95 % of humans fall in the ' male' or 'female' center 3 standard deviations but there are outliers for each gender. It is kind of like the bell curve for height. Most men fall within 3 standard deviations of the average. There are ,however, some very short men and some very tall ones. These men may try to compensate by shoe choice or medical procedures but in the end they are what they are. (One should not try to stretch the analogy too far.)

I would agree. From what I have read (and don't ask me tonight to do the research, I am worn out from my discussion with jwhitlock elsewhere...my fingers even hurt), there are a number of those who experience attraction to men that have also managed to develop sexual attraction to at least one woman. If so, if someone can create a loving and mutually supportive relationship and be faithful to the individual, even if he or she is attracted to others outside the marriage (whether or the same gender or different one), the marriage can work and last eternally in my belief. I have heard from those I trust that there are many in the church in this situation that have made it work...now perhaps their attraction wasn't so extreme, perhaps there was no 'natural' sense of revulsion where it might exist for another which would be a very hard obstacle to overcome, rather it was more creating caring where indifference existed before. I am not saying that such is for everyone. I am just saying that one shouldn't approach people's lives with such an absolute as if one has homosexual feelings or identifies oneself as gay, one should never marry the opposite gender....just as one should never suggest that everyone with homosexual feelings should marry the opposite gender because that will fix them.

[Storm Rider]

Huh? Why not? I can understand that your daughter may choose something else but it's just that, a choice. It is not to be only because she chooses it not to be and you her father loves her regardless. That I understand perfectly and I think I'd react the same as you. But to treat her choices as equal to that of aligning those choices with that of God's plan of salvation is a fallacy. Also, as easily as your daughter choosing not to follow God the solution is just as simple: choose to follow God.

Now, "yes, dear"? What's that?

Darren, some people are capable of abiding in Christ to a point and then choose not to go further. It is not an all or nothing proposition. Their eternal welfare may be limited, but that is the consequences of all sin. This challenge of SSA is one of the more complex issues for humanity. Some cannot accept living a chaste life for what they see of their present and future lives. If they choose to commit to another person I can be grateful they have not chosen to live a life of continuous 15 minute relationships.

It would be difficult for any gay couple to find comfort in an LDS congregation; too much that we teach would conflict with their chosen path. However, the door is open to all who seek to enter.

[Darren10]

Darren, some people are capable of abiding in Christ to a point and then choose not to go further. It is not an all or nothing proposition. Their eternal welfare may be limited, but that is the consequences of all sin. This challenge of SSA is one of the more complex issues for humanity. Some cannot accept living a chaste life for what they see of their present and future lives. If they choose to commit to another person I can be grateful they have not chosen to live a life of continuous 15 minute relationships.

It would be difficult for any gay couple to find comfort in an LDS congregation; too much that we teach would conflict with their chosen path. However, the door is open to all who seek to enter.

I would agree that a committed relationship is better than quick relationship but is't that simply choosing the lesser of two evils? My expression of "good luck with that" to Valentinus is quite genuine but I cannot offer hi. A congradulations or to prop his homosexual relationship up as something equivalent to that of a heterosexual relationship. Nor do I see this as something along the line of, "we all have sin and must repent". Of course that is true and I've offered no negative judgement against Valentinus for his choice to act on homosexual impulses but I have offered him theological reasons to consider what he is doing. Homosexual relationships guarantees no exaltation. Valentinus will never be sealed to his gay partner. Not in this life, nor in the next. That will make exaltation an impossibility. The act o the matter is that one can have ,any sins, and do, and still be sealed to their spouse for time and eternity. I do not view satan as getting people to go to hell. In fact, that's an extremely difficult task for him to do. So I view satan as a being who does what is easy: get humans to loose their exaltation. Acceptance of homosexual marriage is a huge win to that end, is it not?

I would like to make clear to you and all that of course homosexuals are welcome to attend LDS wards. What should not happen, however, is for homosexuality to be accepted as a normal practice, nor as "just another sin". It's inherently wrong as it will lead God's children away from their Father and it is something very hard to alter and change. Not impossible, but very difficult.

[Storm Rider]

I would agree that a committed relationship is better than quick relationship but is't that simply choosing the lesser of two evils? My expression of "good luck with that" to Valentinus is quite genuine but I cannot offer hi. A congradulations or to prop his homosexual relationship up as something equivalent to that of a heterosexual relationship. Nor do I see this as something along the line of, "we all have sin and must repent". Of course that is true and I've offered no negative judgement against Valentinus for his choice to act on homosexual impulses but I have offered him theological reasons to consider what he is doing. Homosexual relationships guarantees no exaltation. Valentinus will never be sealed to his gay partner. Not in this life, nor in the next. That will make exaltation an impossibility. The act o the matter is that one can have ,any sins, and do, and still be sealed to their spouse for time and eternity. I do not view satan as getting people to go to hell. In fact, that's an extremely difficult task for him to do. So I view satan as a being who does what is easy: get humans to loose their exaltation. Acceptance of homosexual marriage is a huge win to that end, is it not?

I would like to make clear to you and all that of course homosexuals are welcome to attend LDS wards. What should not happen, however, is for homosexuality to be accepted as a normal practice, nor as "just another sin". It's inherently wrong as it will lead God's children away from their Father and it is something very hard to alter and change. Not impossible, but very difficult.

We are not in disagreement, but there may be just a difference in emphasis. I accept that some choose to forfeit exaltation for what they perceive as happiness today. Though I think their choice will yield heartache, I think I understand the motivation for their choice.

[Darren10]

We are not in disagreement, but there may be just a difference in emphasis. I accept that some choose to forfeit exaltation for what they perceive as happiness today. Though I think their choice will yield heartache, I think I understand the motivation for their choice.

Agreed. In the end, I cannot offer the same type of congratulations to a homosexual couple as that to a heterosexual couple.

[Damien the Leper]

My reading is that it's also about "multiplying" on the earth. Also, my previous citation about a man and woman in Christ was from Paul's teachings. Since you reject modern-day revelation,perhaps the traditional view o. Women is more along your thinking. Valerie Hudson has a lot to say about that. She's not "anti" any faith but neither does she hold back on her punches.

http://squaretwo.org/Sq2ArticleHudsonAppeal.html

Not at all. Paul's sarcasm in the Corinthian letters is evident of how he feels about those who denigrate women to stigmatized gender roles. he letter to Timothy is evidence that Paul did not have the misogynist opinion.

Hudson's opinions are of no concern to me.

[Damien the Leper]

Huh? Why not? I can understand that your daughter may choose something else but it's just that, a choice. It is not to be only because she chooses it not to be and you her father loves her regardless. That I understand perfectly and I think I'd react the same as you. But to treat her choices as equal to that of aligning those choices with that of God's plan of salvation is a fallacy. Also, as easily as your daughter choosing not to follow God the solution is just as simple: choose to follow God.

Now, "yes, dear"? What's that?

If you are asserting that sexuorientation is a choice then there are bigger issues to deal with. If you're asserting that engaging in a loving and meaningful relationship is a choice...well duh.

[Questing Beast]

I am beginning to consider the idea that gender falls on a bell curve for each . 95 % of humans fall in the ' male' or 'female' center 3 standard deviations but there are outliers for each gender. It is kind of like the bell curve for height. Most men fall within 3 standard deviations of the average. There are ,however, some very short men and some very tall ones. These men may try to compensate by shoe choice or medical procedures but in the end they are what they are. (One should not try to stretch the analogy too far.)

A "bell curve" does not take into account what is considered rare but normal, versus what is not normal and even aberrant in nature. The brain is a stew pot of chemical reactions, and biology speaks with a loud voice. To assume that the hereafter is going to mirror those imperfections we term "abnormal" or "unnatural" is surely a fallacy....

[Damien the Leper]

Papa;

Above is what I had in mind when I said that equating gay marriage to traditional marriage in happiness being a fallacy. I did not have in mind what you said regarding your daughter your equating homosexual relationships with heterosexual relationships. In fact, you did say clearly that your desire was for your daughter to have a good traditional marriage. What confused me was your saying, "it was not meant to be", regarding your daughter having a marital relation with a male. To me that connotated that no matter what, she won't have one. While I do not think that was what you meant to say exactly, I still wanted to outright reject that implication of your statement.

You've obviously never been in a homosexual relationship therefore you cannot determine the strength of happiness in a gay relationship based on a conservative religious opinion. That is just silly and presumptuous. My other half doesn't just make me happy. He brings joy. Because Jesus is the center of our relationship, that joy is magnified beyond even my own comprehension.

[Questing Beast]

You've obviously never been in a homosexual relationship therefore you cannot determine the strength of happiness in a gay relationship based on a conservative religious opinion. That is just silly and presumptuous. My other half doesn't just make me happy. He brings joy. Because Jesus is the center of our relationship, that joy is magnified beyond even my own comprehension.

Well, you could mistaken, just as we all are capable of being mistaken, being misled by our biology speaking. Excitement is a very distracting, disarming, distorting state of being. I don't like or welcome being in a state of "beyond even my own comprehension". "Incomprehensible" needs to be followed up by comprehension, clarity, soberness, steadfastness, endurance, and then total commitment with eyes wide open, etc. The first flush of romantic love is just that and nothing more. Real life sets in quickly, stresses come, romantic feelings fade to at best a "come and go" level. Something beyond physical love is at the core of any lasting relationship, especially "marriage". So "gay" or "straight" really is no distinction in any of this, it is human to human biology. And then you can ignore or respect religious sentiments, or make up your own.

I ascribe to the best evidence explanation, "gay" is well under one percent of the male adult population. "Bi" is several times more common, which implies a choice in the matter: if any male has ever felt sexual attraction toward even ONE female, he is not "gay" at all, he has a choice. And females are several times more "bi" than males are, they have even more choice in whether to respond to a lesbian offer or refuse and hold out for the man to come into their life. My daughter is like that, but currently chooses to go lesbian. I cannot accept her choice as equal to disciplining herself, being patient, and holding out for the man to come into her life.

Edit to add: the "explanation" I distracted myself from elucidating is: the evidence indicates that GLBT mentality is largely choice, overlaid by cultural confusion. Those very few who are biologically incapable of ever feeling any sexual attraction toward the opposite gender are unfortunates whose biology is messed up, i.e. part of this imperfect world, and will not be that way in the afterlife. There will be no "gays" or lesbians "married" for eternity or anything like it, not in "Mormon heaven" anyway. I won't put it past "God" to allow other kinds of "heaven" for all kinds of people, but "Mormon heaven" cannot include them, they'll have their own place, if they get a place at all together, and whatever "joy" it may bring....

Edited August 9, 2013 by Questing Beast