The Nehor Posted August 4, 2013 Posted August 4, 2013 You just demonstrated a shining example of why so many, many, many people hate Mormons. Friendliness get rewarded with the devils hate.Feeling angsty?
tyler90az Posted August 4, 2013 Posted August 4, 2013 No I am actually feeling happier and freer then anytime as a member of the church the last three years. It really is liberating to have the moral courage to call out the spade that is gay hate and igorance within the church. It is a sad fact that years from now people will look back at this church and group of apostles and leaders as having a tarnished legacy.
bluebell Posted August 4, 2013 Posted August 4, 2013 No I am actually feeling happier and freer then anytime as a member of the church the last three years. It really is liberating to have the moral courage to call out the spade that is gay hate and igorance within the church. It is a sad fact that years from now people will look back at this church and group of apostles and leaders as having a tarnished legacy.If you think that the leadership of this church hates gays then it's a sad fact that you are so confused.
tyler90az Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 If you think that the leadership of this church hates gays then it's a sad fact that you are so confused.Actions speak louder then words. Their legacies have been tarnished, it is too bad. They will be remembered as the group of apostles who fought against prop 8 in California and gays in general(lost both). People don't tend to remember the little good things people do they remember the big bad things. Usually only the Prophet is remembered anyway, the apostles are not remembered at all unless they make a bold move. You look at apostles like scott, holland, ucthdorf and others who have no real chance at being a prophet, they will be forgotten within a couple years of their deaths. Then when the time comes and gay marriage is universally accepted by everyone people will look back at who fought against the civil rights issue of our time. They will then realize it was this group and it will be nothing but a negative legacy. A legacy that their posterity will have to ashmadely defend forever. Like I said, it is too bad, because I genuinly believe some of the apostles would have taken a different route with the gay issue, yet nobody will ever know and they will have that negative legacy forever stuck to them.
bluebell Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 Actions speak louder then words. Their legacies have been tarnished, it is too bad. They will be remembered as the group of apostles who fought against prop 8 in California and gays in general(lost both). People don't tend to remember the little good things people do they remember the big bad things. Usually only the Prophet is remembered anyway, the apostles are not remembered at all unless they make a bold move. You look at apostles like scott, holland, ucthdorf and others who have no real chance at being a prophet, they will be forgotten within a couple years of their deaths. Then when the time comes and gay marriage is universally accepted by everyone people will look back at who fought against the civil rights issue of our time. They will then realize it was this group and it will be nothing but a negative legacy. A legacy that their posterity will have to ashmadely defend forever. Like I said, it is too bad, because I genuinly believe some of the apostles would have taken a different route with the gay issue, yet nobody will ever know and they will have that negative legacy forever stuck to them.No, i don't believe so. Not in the least. Their legacy will stand for eternities, along with those of all good men and women who do their best to follow Christ.
Stargazer Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 No I am actually feeling happier and freer then anytime as a member of the church the last three years. It really is liberating to have the moral courage to call out the spade that is gay hate and igorance within the church. It is a sad fact that years from now people will look back at this church and group of apostles and leaders as having a tarnished legacy.I am not a prognosticator, nor a prophet, so I make no predictions, but I hope that you don't end up regretting the freedom which you say you have obtained.My first marriage was an unqualified disaster. I had plenty of signs that it would be so before I ever said "I do". It was not a temple marriage, because she was not up to it, even if she was a member of the church. But I ignored all the warning signs, including signs of mental and emotional instability, and advice from friends, and I didn't pray about it until things had progressed to the point of no return. Then when I did finally pray about it, I got a peaceful feeling, which I knew was from the Lord. Later I understood that I had put myself into such a position after so many negative indications that the Lord had basically thrown up His hands and said "If you think you're so smart, then go for it." Just like when Joseph gave those 116 pages of manuscript to Martin Harris after the Lord finally gave in to Joseph's repeated requests for permission. Joseph paid the price for his insistence that he knew better, and so did I.But I remember that feeling of peace. These days I would still trust that feeling, but it would have to be accompanied by a lot of solid confirmation.Because sometimes the Lord let's you go to the buffetings of Satan, if you have the determination to ignore Him and go your own way.I don't see the hate for gays you claim to see in the Church, and I certainly don't see any hate in the battle over Prop 8. I do see standing for divine and eternal principles however. There were members who left the Church because of any number of actions that the Church took that they didn't agree with for one reason or another, among them being of course ending of plural marriage and the priesthood ban for blacks. Was the Church wrong for those policy changes? Some would say yes, but they would be wrong. And so are you. In so saying, I have nothing but good will in my heart for you. I am certain you are a good man, one who has unfortunately taken a wrong turning, but good nonetheless.In my opinion you are heading down a road you will regret eventually. I hope it will not be too large a regret.
Stargazer Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 I can't imagine there are many Mormons wanting that story told.I can't imagine this Mormon caring much about whether it gets told or no.
Stargazer Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 I don't think many gay ex Mormons would tell a story that Mormons would be thrilled to watch no matter how truthfully it was being told.And yet there are lots of gay ex-Mormons whose stories no self-respecting LGBT activist would want to see told no matter how truthfully it was being told. Because, to some people, if a story is true it is still not very useful unless the LDS Church gets pilloried in the end.The problem is, like the definition of "is", what is truth? I have had people tell me things that they swore were true that turned out to be completely false. Even if they still believed that what they said was truth, it wasn't. Want a faith-confirming LGBT story? Try this one on for size:http://www.mormonwomen.com/2013/05/09/playing-from-her-heart/
california boy Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 And yet there are lots of gay ex-Mormons whose stories no self-respecting LGBT activist would want to see told no matter how truthfully it was being told. Because, to some people, if a story is true it is still not very useful unless the LDS Church gets pilloried in the end.The problem is, like the definition of "is", what is truth? I have had people tell me things that they swore were true that turned out to be completely false. Even if they still believed that what they said was truth, it wasn't.Want a faith-confirming LGBT story? Try this one on for size:http://www.mormonwom...from-her-heart/A very nice story. I am glad she has found peace in her life. Many people find peace in their lives through the church. It is one of the reasons why I support and encourage my children to be involved in the church. I would encourage anyone that feels the love and support of the church to be drawn into it.But it is not my story. It is not my reality. I am the guy that never found peace in the church. I am the guy that fasted, prayed, went to the temple, got married because I thought it would make me straight or at least soften my attraction to men. For me it was more like I was fighting everything about me to try and do what I thought God wanted me to do.In the end, I left the church. Well actually I waited until my children were no longer living at home before divorcing. The church, of course excommunicated me when I started seeing men. Maybe that is how it had to happen, because I am not sure I would have had the courage to leave the church by myself. It has been about 14 years since I left the church. I still feel connected with the church in a lot of ways. I guess that is one of the reasons why I participate in this discussion board. I also have found a peace in my life that I longed for for so many years. Like this story, I am in a place of unbelievable happiness. I found a boyfriend who I love and share my life with in a way I could never connect before. My gay friends see how happy I am. My Mormon family thinks I should be miserable and have never excepted that I could find happiness outside the church. Hey that is ok. It took me a very long time for me to find this happiness. Why would it be easy for them to understand that? I think if most Mormons were honest about this, they would admit that for the vast majority of gay members, leaving the church brings them a peace that can not be found in the church. Not many gay members have the story to tell that you linked to or the infamous Weed family. There is a reason for that. I am not saying it can't happen, I am saying it is pretty rare that it happens. In any event, I wish anyone the peace with God they are looking for, no matter where they find it.
The Nehor Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 No I am actually feeling happier and freer then anytime as a member of the church the last three years. It really is liberating to have the moral courage to call out the spade that is gay hate and igorance within the church. It is a sad fact that years from now people will look back at this church and group of apostles and leaders as having a tarnished legacy.If it takes great moral courage to take a stand anonymously on the internet then this is the most morally courageous generation in the history of the world.
Stargazer Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 A very nice story. I am glad she has found peace in her life. Many people find peace in their lives through the church. It is one of the reasons why I support and encourage my children to be involved in the church. I would encourage anyone that feels the love and support of the church to be drawn into it.But it is not my story. It is not my reality. I am the guy that never found peace in the church. I am the guy that fasted, prayed, went to the temple, got married because I thought it would make me straight or at least soften my attraction to men. For me it was more like I was fighting everything about me to try and do what I thought God wanted me to do.In the end, I left the church. Well actually I waited until my children were no longer living at home before divorcing. The church, of course excommunicated me when I started seeing men. Maybe that is how it had to happen, because I am not sure I would have had the courage to leave the church by myself. It has been about 14 years since I left the church. I still feel connected with the church in a lot of ways. I guess that is one of the reasons why I participate in this discussion board. I also have found a peace in my life that I longed for for so many years. Like this story, I am in a place of unbelievable happiness. I found a boyfriend who I love and share my life with in a way I could never connect before. My gay friends see how happy I am. My Mormon family thinks I should be miserable and have never excepted that I could find happiness outside the church. Hey that is ok. It took me a very long time for me to find this happiness. Why would it be easy for them to understand that? I think if most Mormons were honest about this, they would admit that for the vast majority of gay members, leaving the church brings them a peace that can not be found in the church. Not many gay members have the story to tell that you linked to or the infamous Weed family. There is a reason for that. I am not saying it can't happen, I am saying it is pretty rare that it happens. In any event, I wish anyone the peace with God they are looking for, no matter where they find it.Absolutely loved your post. I see too much of what seems to me to be the stridently confrontational california boy, and perhaps that has caused me to react to that in ways that you may have found strident as well. If so, then my apology for it.I will not ever accept gay marriage, but I wish lasting peace to you nevertheless.
california boy Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 Absolutely loved your post. I see too much of what seems to me to be the stridently confrontational california boy, and perhaps that has caused me to react to that in ways that you may have found strident as well. If so, then my apology for it.I will not ever accept gay marriage, but I wish lasting peace to you nevertheless.Thanks. Sometimes the image we get of someone on this discussion board is not all that accurate of the actual person. Nice to see another side of you as well.
tyler90az Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 If it takes great moral courage to take a stand anonymously on the internet then this is the most morally courageous generation in the history of the world.It is actually official your TR will be taken if you support gay marriage. Like I said, it is actually the best thing that has happened because now I am freer and happier. Deep down I never really believed anyway, I tried my hardest for my wife. This was going to happen eventually anyway, I just can not believe in this church. My wife is a Sunday Mormon anyway so this really has not bothered our relationship at all. Go to church once awhile, and say prayer does not hurt me at all.In reality most people are only in the church or believe because they want a power grab. They see an opportunity to grab power and they stay in. Like I told you earlier even that is mostly politics. If you are a leader despite what you may think you are not special.
tyler90az Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 I am not a prognosticator, nor a prophet, so I make no predictions, but I hope that you don't end up regretting the freedom which you say you have obtained.My first marriage was an unqualified disaster. I had plenty of signs that it would be so before I ever said "I do". It was not a temple marriage, because she was not up to it, even if she was a member of the church. But I ignored all the warning signs, including signs of mental and emotional instability, and advice from friends, and I didn't pray about it until things had progressed to the point of no return. Then when I did finally pray about it, I got a peaceful feeling, which I knew was from the Lord. Later I understood that I had put myself into such a position after so many negative indications that the Lord had basically thrown up His hands and said "If you think you're so smart, then go for it." Just like when Joseph gave those 116 pages of manuscript to Martin Harris after the Lord finally gave in to Joseph's repeated requests for permission. Joseph paid the price for his insistence that he knew better, and so did I.But I remember that feeling of peace. These days I would still trust that feeling, but it would have to be accompanied by a lot of solid confirmation.Because sometimes the Lord let's you go to the buffetings of Satan, if you have the determination to ignore Him and go your own way.I don't see the hate for gays you claim to see in the Church, and I certainly don't see any hate in the battle over Prop 8. I do see standing for divine and eternal principles however. There were members who left the Church because of any number of actions that the Church took that they didn't agree with for one reason or another, among them being of course ending of plural marriage and the priesthood ban for blacks. Was the Church wrong for those policy changes? Some would say yes, but they would be wrong. And so are you. In so saying, I have nothing but good will in my heart for you. I am certain you are a good man, one who has unfortunately taken a wrong turning, but good nonetheless.In my opinion you are heading down a road you will regret eventually. I hope it will not be too large a regret.Thank you for the concern! I do not believe that I will be buffeted by Satan, that is a fake fear.
bluebell Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 In reality most people are only in the church or believe because they want a power grab. They see an opportunity to grab power and they stay in. Like I told you earlier even that is mostly politics. If you are a leader despite what you may think you are not special.CFR on this.Are you sure you're not becoming the very thing that you don't like about members of the church-their perceived judgmental attitude and self righteousness?Because in the statement above, that's exactly how you are coming across.
tyler90az Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 Compare activity levels with other churches.Look at human nature to have some prestige.Never have I seen so much butt kissing then by members.Not necessarily inrefutable proof but it is what it is. That does not mean I do not like LDS, I do.
The Nehor Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 In reality most people are only in the church or believe because they want a power grab. They see an opportunity to grab power and they stay in. Like I told you earlier even that is mostly politics. If you are a leader despite what you may think you are not special.No, you are wrong. At the risk of sounding repetitious this is a dumb thing to say and you are dumb for having said it.I neither want nor seek power at church. If I had my way I would be Gospel Doctrine teacher for life maybe mixed up with occasionally teaching Gospel Principles. Prominent positions require one to wake up early on Sunday, wear a suit to meetings that happen way too often, and be available all the time. I accept callings like that because it is true. If it wasn't I would have left over callings like that. As it is I just do the best I can. I currently have three callings and none are prominent or largely visible. Do you imagine this means I am seething in rage trying to prove myself through showy oneupmanship so one day I can ascend to the ranks of power and rule my ward with an iron fist?Not everything is about politics. Most things are not. That you imagine that they are is kinda scary. How do you function believing that? Do you play some kind of political game in other areas of your life?
The Nehor Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 Compare activity levels with other churches.Look at human nature to have some prestige.Never have I seen so much butt kissing then by members.Not necessarily inrefutable proof but it is what it is. That does not mean I do not like LDS, I do.I think what you see as butt kissing is compassion and sincere compliments. You may like LDS but you sure are condescending and willing to assume the worst about them.
tyler90az Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 No, you are wrong. At the risk of sounding repetitious this is a dumb thing to say and you are dumb for having said it.I neither want nor seek power at church. If I had my way I would be Gospel Doctrine teacher for life maybe mixed up with occasionally teaching Gospel Principles. Prominent positions require one to wake up early on Sunday, wear a suit to meetings that happen way too often, and be available all the time. I accept callings like that because it is true. If it wasn't I would have left over callings like that. As it is I just do the best I can. I currently have three callings and none are prominent or largely visible. Do you imagine this means I am seething in rage trying to prove myself through showy oneupmanship so one day I can ascend to the ranks of power and rule my ward with an iron fist?Not everything is about politics. Most things are not. That you imagine that they are is kinda scary. How do you function believing that? Do you play some kind of political game in other areas of your life?At the same risk of sounding repititous you are very naive. I can not discuss with a naive person it takes living life and choice to break free.
The Nehor Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 At the same risk of sounding repititous you are very naive. I can not discuss with a naive person it takes living life and choice to break free.How do you define "living life"? Willingness to imagine Machiavellian conspiracies taking place over who is second counselor in the Young Mens Presidency with all fixated on seizing the Bishopric and ruling the ward in their own image?
tyler90az Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 How do you define "living life"? Willingness to imagine Machiavellian conspiracies taking place over who is second counselor in the Young Mens Presidency with all fixated on seizing the Bishopric and ruling the ward in their own image?One of the easiest ways to tell somebody is no ground to stand on in an argument is when they greatly exaggerate what you say.
The Nehor Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 One of the easiest ways to tell somebody is no ground to stand on in an argument is when they greatly exaggerate what you say.I agree I am no ground to stand on. Point conceded.Don't tread on me.
tyler90az Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 I agree I am no ground to stand on. Point conceded.Don't tread on me.You can tell even further when they go after your typos.
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