Violating D&C 89

[EllenMaksoud]

Some of us were conditioned to be what others want us to be, and to finally stand our ground and become what Heavenly Father wants us to be is so difficult and unclear at times. To what extent do you go to in order to accommodate your non LDS friends? Would you drink coffee to be like one of them? Would you go dancing in far too little clothing? Would you wear the clothing of another culture to make them comfortable?

I have seen other LDS women swimming in things I could not.

How far to we take free agency?

[cinepro]

I generally believe more in free agency for myself than others.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

The opposite could be asked also...

How much would you be willing to chage who you are at the core to satisfy LDS cultural traditions, that really have little to do with the Gospel?

[thesometimesaint]

I give more Agency to others than myself. I also think that social customs need not interfere with Gospel standards. So if I were to visit Russia I wouldn't drink the Vodka, but may well try on traditional clothing, and try to dance traditional dances. Probably without much success.

[EllenMaksoud]

I generally believe more in free agency for myself than others.

Chortle, chortle.

[cinepro]

But to your primary concern, I think Thomas Jefferson said it best:

"In matters of style, swim with the current. In matters of principle, stand like a rock."

[EllenMaksoud]

The opposite could be asked also...

How much would you be willing to change who you are at the core to satisfy LDS cultural traditions, that really have little to do with the Gospel?

I was under great pressure to change who I was. Imagine telling the Stake President that you believed in Joseph Smith, the BOM, and all the standard documents. That, and I still believed in the Prophet Muhammad PBUH, and the Qur'an, simply feeling that Islam was the intermediate step between Jesus Christ and Martin Luther, and finally on to Joseph Smith. Outside, I am quintessential Mormon woman. Inside I am still Hijabi.

People all the time get culture mixed up with doctrine.

[EllenMaksoud]

But to your primary concern, I think Thomas Jefferson said it best:

"In matters of style, swim with the current. In matters of principle, stand like a rock."

Shukran Jazillian.

[Stone holm]

I really have not found that external social pressure that strong with regards to any religious issue with the possible exception of Sabbath keeping to ever be much of a problem. Most people don't care if you dont drink coffee, don't drink booze and don't smoke. That impulse is normally self-generated -- unless maybe you are a teenager or college student. We seem to care more whether people are complying with our standards, rather than whether we are complying with more restrictive standards. For me, however, the Sabbath has been a source of family contention as other family members tend to want to schedule things on the Sabbath, that we feel constrained not to do, which often draws the remark, "Well for a family oriented Church, the Church certainly discourages family interaction." Which normally sends my wife off into the stratosphere somewhere, and I take the brunt of it when she lands.

[thesometimesaint]

I really have not found that external social pressure that strong with regards to any religious issue with the possible exception of Sabbath keeping to ever be much of a problem. Most people don't care if you dont drink coffee, don't drink booze and don't smoke. That impulse is normally self-generated -- unless maybe you are a teenager or college student. We seem to care more whether people are complying with our standards, rather than whether we are complying with more restrictive standards. For me, however, the Sabbath has been a source of family contention as other family members tend to want to schedule things on the Sabbath, that we feel constrained not to do, which often draws the remark, "Well for a family oriented Church, the Church certainly discourages family interaction." Which normally sends my wife off into the stratosphere somewhere, and I take the brunt of it when she lands.

No one can make you feel guilty without your permission.

[theplains]

How far to we take free agency?

You should not use your liberty to eat or drink anything that would cause a weaker brother or

sister to stumble. This was explained by Paul in Romans chapter 14.

Thanks,

Jim

[EllenMaksoud]

No one can make you feel guilty without your permission.

I found very early in life that crazy, forceful people can make you feel anything they wish. It is by the power of the gospel that such things are made right, if not in this life, then the next.

[EllenMaksoud]

You should not use your liberty to eat or drink anything that would cause a weaker brother or

sister to stumble. This was explained by Paul in Romans chapter 14.

Thanks,

Jim

As I have thought about the issues, Apple juice can be substituted for coffee.

[Stone holm]

No one can make you feel guilty without your permission.

Oh, I have developed a pretty good immunity to guilt trips. My wife exploding in frustration, best to just duck and seek cover. I did love the part in the life of Pi , where he talks about his multi theism multiplying the number of entities to generate guilt.

[mfbukowski]

A guy walks into a bar and orders three beers.

The bartender brings him three glassesof beer, and watches him for a moment.

First the guy takes a sip from glass one, then a sip from glass two, then one from glass 3 and keeps repeating the process.

The bartender tells him " This is draft beer- it would be fresher if you ordered one at a time, drank that glass and then ordered another"

Guy answers,

"No, you don't understand- I used to go drinking with my 2 brothers every night, and we would order three beers and sit and talk. But they moved across country and I can't do that anymore, so I order three beers. This one is for Bill, this one is for Bob, and that one over there is for me!"

Bartender doesn't say anything- after all, the customer is always right!

The guy keeps coming in every night and doing the same thing.

Then one night, he comes in and orders two beers instead of three.

The Bartender goes up to him and says - "Oh- I'm so so sorry- did something happen to one of your brothers?"

Guy looks at him and says,

"No- they're just fine, but thanks for asking! I just became a Mormon and I can't drink anymore!"

[Stone holm]

A guy walks into a bar and orders three beers.

The bartender brings him three glassesof beer, and watches him for a moment.

First the guy takes a sip from glass one, then a sip from glass two, then one from glass 3 and keeps repeating the process.

The bartender tells him " This is draft beer- it would be fresher if you ordered one at a time, drank that glass and then ordered another"

Guy answers,

"No, you don't understand- I used to go drinking with my 2 brothers every night, and we would order three beers and sit and talk. But they moved across country and I can't do that anymore, so I order three beers. This one is for Bill, this one is for Bob, and that one over there is for me!"

Bartender doesn't say anything- after all, the customer is always right!

The guy keeps coming in every night and doing the same thing.

Then one night, he comes in and orders two beers instead of three.

The Bartender goes up to him and says - "Oh- I'm so so sorry- did something happen to one of your brothers?"

Guy looks at him and says,

"No- they're just fine, but thanks for asking! I just became a Mormon and I can't drink anymore!"

Lol...I have to figure out how to work that into my next HP group session.

[Duncan]

the only time I would ever attempt to drink coffee is if Jerry Seinfeld invited me to participate in his thing about 'Comedians in cars" drinking coffee, but seeing as how I am not a comedian and I don't know Jerry Seinfeld personally it wouldn't likely happen

[ERayR]

Some of us were conditioned to be what others want us to be, and to finally stand our ground and become what Heavenly Father wants us to be is so difficult and unclear at times. To what extent do you go to in order to accommodate your non LDS friends? Would you drink coffee to be like one of them? Would you go dancing in far too little clothing? Would you wear the clothing of another culture to make them comfortable?

I have seen other LDS women swimming in things I could not.

How far to we take free agency?

I have become comfortable enough with who I am that I would not and do not compromise my principles to be accepted or liked. I think it is a mistake to do so. If you do you end up with no principles and no friends.

[ERayR]

The opposite could be asked also...

How much would you be willing to chage who you are at the core to satisfy LDS cultural traditions, that really have little to do with the Gospel?

See above # 18.

[Questing Beast]

Some of us were conditioned to be what others want us to be, and to finally stand our ground and become what Heavenly Father wants us to be is so difficult and unclear at times. To what extent do you go to in order to accommodate your non LDS friends? Would you drink coffee to be like one of them? Would you go dancing in far too little clothing? Would you wear the clothing of another culture to make them comfortable?

I have seen other LDS women swimming in things I could not.

How far to we take free agency?

I don't see swimming attire mentioned in Section 89, so you are extending the intent behind it to other facets of living. That's okay, actually.

All "commandments" are "more like guidelines, really". That is imho, of course. To the extent that our "guidelines" do not betray inner feelings of right and wrong, we are justified in what we do and don't do. In other words, personal "guidelines" should conform (in fact will conform) to our innermost feelings. We cannot live a lie. Try for a long time, yes, but ultimately not live counter to what we genuinely feel. Those who genuinely remain unconvinced about the guidelines regarding health will partake and imbibe to the degree of their unbelief and desire to partake and imbibe. So too with "modesty" or other standards of comportment. I have seen tattoos in the temple, and body piercings (even though the jewelry is removed), and weird (that is to say extreme) hair, etc. You know that the individual is not convinced about the rigidity of the "guidelines". That's okay, as long as the individual is being true to their inner light. And I say that "God's" message to everyone is the same on a singular level: do no harm to any. That is simple enough to write. But the living of it is as difficult to do well as it is to know how the pieces in chess move and yet the ability to play well is very, very, very challenging (and also rewarding, when you can win)....

Edited May 4, 2013 by Questing Beast

[DH]

Some of us were conditioned to be what others want us to be, and to finally stand our ground and become what Heavenly Father wants us to be is so difficult and unclear at times. To what extent do you go to in order to accommodate your non LDS friends? Would you drink coffee to be like one of them? Would you go dancing in far too little clothing? Would you wear the clothing of another culture to make them comfortable?

I have seen other LDS women swimming in things I could not.

How far to we take free agency?

Maybe I'm too much of an individualist, but if people insist on my being exactly like them in order to be friends, then I don't really want to be friends with them. (Of course, we usually have at least some things in common, but not because that's forced.) So if someone said I had to smoke in order for them to accept me, I'd say "adios!" I have non-LDS friends, and they do drink coffee, tea, and alochol, but they do not pressure me to. They accept me the way I am, and I accept them.

As you can tell, I'm big on free agency. But it goes both ways -- you can exercise free agency to conform with the herd, or you can use it to be yourself and stick to your principles.

Peace.

[EllenMaksoud]

I don't see swimming attire mentioned in Section 89, so you are extending the intent behind it to other facets of living. That's okay, actually.

All "commandments" are "more like guidelines, really". That is imho, of course. To the extent that our "guidelines" do not betray inner feelings of right and wrong, we are justified in what we do and don't do. In other words, personal "guidelines" should conform (in fact will conform) to our innermost feelings. We cannot live a lie. Try for a long time, yes, but ultimately not live counter to what we genuinely feel. Those who genuinely remain unconvinced about the guidelines regarding health will partake and imbibe to the degree of their unbelief and desire to partake and imbibe. So too with "modesty" or other standards of comportment. I have seen tattoos in the temple, and body piercings (even though the jewelry is removed), and weird (that is to say extreme) hair, etc. You know that the individual is not convinced about the rigidity of the "guidelines". That's okay, as long as the individual is being true to their inner light. And I say that "God's" message to everyone is the same on a singular level: do no harm to any. That is simple enough to write. But the living of it is as difficult to do well as it is to know how the pieces in chess move and yet the ability to play well is very, very, very challenging (and also rewarding, when you can win)....

It is difficult to reconcile belief systems.

[thesometimesaint]

You should not use your liberty to eat or drink anything that would cause a weaker brother or

sister to stumble. This was explained by Paul in Romans chapter 14.

Thanks,

Jim

Don't take that to far.

[Stone holm]

Maybe I'm too much of an individualist, but if people insist on my being exactly like them in order to be friends, then I don't really want to be friends with them. (Of course, we usually have at least some things in common, but not because that's forced.) So if someone said I had to smoke in order for them to accept me, I'd say "adios!" I have non-LDS friends, and they do drink coffee, tea, and alochol, but they do not pressure me to. They accept me the way I am, and I accept them.

As you can tell, I'm big on free agency. But it goes both ways -- you can exercise free agency to conform with the herd, or you can use it to be yourself and stick to your principles.

Peace.

Gave you a bump on that, I agree exactly with your sentiments.

[Stargazer]

A guy walks into a bar and orders three beers.

The bartender brings him three glassesof beer, and watches him for a moment.

First the guy takes a sip from glass one, then a sip from glass two, then one from glass 3 and keeps repeating the process.

The bartender tells him " This is draft beer- it would be fresher if you ordered one at a time, drank that glass and then ordered another"

Guy answers,

"No, you don't understand- I used to go drinking with my 2 brothers every night, and we would order three beers and sit and talk. But they moved across country and I can't do that anymore, so I order three beers. This one is for Bill, this one is for Bob, and that one over there is for me!"

Bartender doesn't say anything- after all, the customer is always right!

The guy keeps coming in every night and doing the same thing.

Then one night, he comes in and orders two beers instead of three.

The Bartender goes up to him and says - "Oh- I'm so so sorry- did something happen to one of your brothers?"

Guy looks at him and says,

"No- they're just fine, but thanks for asking! I just became a Mormon and I can't drink anymore!"

I've heard that joke before, but not in context of becoming a Mormon (just quitting drinking), but it is definitely better in your version. I'm going to tell my wife the joke and see if she laughs.