Can You Be Faithful And Own A Business That Serves Alcohol?

[thesometimesaint]

That's what I meant. Thank you.

Would a business be justified in installing filters on all their internet connections?

[ERayR]

Would a business be justified in installing filters on all their internet connections?

We are supposed to personally adhere to church standard. It is not for us to police the world.

[RobertAC]

One of the principle Buddhist preceps is to avoid taking intoxicating substances. Yet, their are a lot of Chinese, Thai, Cambodian, Vietnamese, etc. Buddhists who operate liquor stores and head shops. There is no general authority in my faith, but the way my local vihara ("church") handles these situations is that a monk will not offer blessings over the business, and further will not go inside the establishment. That way there is no confusion to any observers that the business is religiously sanctioned.

[Saints Alive]

No we don't know that. However, we can all recognize self justification when we see it, As was posted go do what you want but please do not split hairs over wording. He who must be commanded in all things is an unprofitable servant.

Who are you trying to convince? Me or yourself? It seems like you and and a few others on this thread need the WoW to be a commandment. I am fine with it being sent by greeting, and still following it. I am only pointing out that it is not a commandment per scripture and that neither I nor any other Saint is required to covenant to follow it. You should not be commanded in all things indeed! If that is the case then why are you so adamant that the WoW is a commandment, on par with the commandment to love thy brother.

[Stargazer]

I don't know about selling alcohol, but giving it away seems OK. See BoM where the Nephites plied the Lamanites with strong drink.

You know, it might seem to be a bit nitpicky, but I think the Word of Wisdom somewhat postdates the events in the Book of Mormon.

[Stargazer]

Could one still be faithful if one owns a porn site or store? While such businesses are legal are they ethical or moral. ZCMI was once criticized by H. Nibley because it was far from being Zion. I suppose one could justify any action. On this one I am a bit hard core.

In a much older discussion on this board, possibly early last year, I was involved in a thread in which business economics came under discussion briefly, and a poster whose username I do not now recall indicated that he considered a business that made any profit to be exploiting its customers and therefore unethical. No logic would dissuade him from his conviction, which might be seen as leftish. Nibley, as I recall, tended towards the leftish, too, in this fashion, and his disapproval of ZCMI seems consistent with what I know of his orientation. Of course, both are wrong on this point, IMHO.

But I'd prefer not to jack the thread, so perhaps this should be 'nuff said.

[Avatar4321]

Show me where, in the standard works, the WoW is a commandment.

Joseph struggled to get the Saints to accept revelations and commandments not found in the Bible. It seems as though many saints just expanded that to the Standard works and are still ignoring ongoing revelation. Countless aspects of the Temple, for example, are absent in the Standard works due to their sacred nature. I think we are still required to uphold those standards.

The Word of Wisdom was presented to the Saints multiple times in General Conference to make the Word of Wisdom a requirement for the Saints and the Saints agreed to it.

If you don't want to be a latter-day Saint, then you shouldn't feel obligated to follow it. But if you want to be a faithful latter-day saint, then ignoring the wisdom isn't something you should do. Because you wont get into the temple without following it.

[Saints Alive]

Countless aspects of the Temple, for example, are absent in the Standard works due to their sacred nature. I think we are still required to uphold those standards.

some of the details of the temple may not be found in scripture but I promise you all of the covenants we make there are in scripture.

The Word of Wisdom was presented to the Saints multiple times in General Conference to make the Word of Wisdom a requirement for the Saints and the Saints agreed to it.

No it wasn't, and if you read the context that it was presented in, it seems that it was referring to the members present and not binding on the whole church.

If you don't want to be a latter-day Saint, then you shouldn't feel obligated to follow it. But if you want to be a faithful latter-day saint, then ignoring the wisdom isn't something you should do. Because you wont get into the temple without following it.

See post #54, It seems to me that you too need the WoW to be a commandment in order to follow it. I don't...

[blackstrap]

I can see how one would think that there is no specific covenant to obey the WoW . It is, after all , a word of WISDOM. I have not specifically covenanted to wear just one set of earrings , or to not use MJ, or to not yell at my wife ( even though she needs it ) , but it is wise to follow the Lord's suggestions (" whether by My voice or the voice of My servants, it is the same " )I agree that there are much weightier elements of the law as Saints Alive has pointed out and more effort to comply with those elements would be better for all of us.

[Mark Beesley]

Show me where, in the standard works, the WoW is a commandment.

My mistake. What I should have said was that when you were baptized you covenanted to follow Christ. And of course, you originally asked to be shown where you covenanted to keep the Word of Wisdom. I apologize for unintentionally introducing the rather mundane issue of whether the Word of Wisdom is a commandment. For most Saints of the 21st Century that is self-evident. But let's leave that behind, for a moment, and focus on your question, i.e. have you covenanted to obey the Word of Wisdom?

At baptism you enter into a covenant to follow Christ.

And whosoever will hearken unto my words and repenteth and is baptized, the same shall be saved. Search the prophets, for many there be that testify of these things.

3 Nephi 23:5

To hearken means more than just hear. When the Lord uses it, it means to hear and obey.

Does the covenant to hearken unto Christ and obey Him include a covenant to obey the Word of Wisdom? I believe it does.

Calmoriah hit it on the head. The Word of Wisdom is a law that, if obeyed, has a blessing attached. Obedience to the law results in the promised blessing. Disobedience results in the withholding of the blessing. If one is going to follow Christ religiously, it would seem inarguable that one would be doing all in one's power to realize every blessing that Christ is offering. One does not follow Christ by selectively choosing which blessing one wishes to garner and which blessing one wishes to forego. To do so is to be lukewarm in following Christ.

So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Revelation 3:16

That fact that the the preface to the Word of Wisdom says that it was not given by way of commandment is not really dispositive unless one is willing to engage in rhetorical games with the Lord. If you do, you lose. But the Lord is merciful.

Now let us consider briefly the words used to reveal this law. As preface, let us remember that the Lord will, at times, use words that He believes will be the greater motivator. For example, He used to threaten endless torment to those who were disobedient. However, He later revealed that the term endless torment did not have reference to the duration, rather to the nature of the torment. See D&C 19:6-12.

In revealing Section 89, the Lord's very first utterance is: "A Word of Wisdom." There are numerous other ways the Lord could have begun this revelation. But it may very well be a clue to the Saints just how seriously they should consider what follows. Remember how John opens his Gospel. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1.

The term Word has a very specific and pointed reference to the Lord.

"Man shall not live by bread alone, by by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matthew 4:4.

"And these are they by the way side where the word is sown . . ." Mark 4:15.

There are too many example to quote them all. But it is clear that the Word brings life, and obedience to the Word is commanded. Disobedience to the word brings destruction. To paraphrase Christ in Matthew 4, Man shall live by every Word that proceedeth out fo the mouth of God.

The Word of Wisdom is Christ's Wisdom. It is a Word that has proceeded forth from His mouth. We are under covenant, having been baptized in His name, to follow him and obey His Word. The world at large is commanded to live by every Word that the Lord has spoken.

So, yes, you are under covenant to keep the Word of Wisdom, and since you have been given the law, it is a commandment to you as well.

You should tread very, very carefully in suggesting to anyone that they are not commanded to keep the Word of Wisdom. That would seem to be flirting with the edges of open rebellion against God.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Here's a story on the Sutherland Institute criticizing an LDS restaurant owner in Provo because he chooses to serve alcohol in his restaurant...

http://www.cityweekly.net/utah/blog-25-9371-group-questions-faith-of-lds-restaurant-owners-who-sell-booze.html

I happen to disagree with the Sutherland Institute on this one but they raise interesting points... As a faithful member of the church is it "okay" to:

Own a business that is open on Sunday?

Serve coffee/tea in your business?

Serve alcohol in your business?

Own a gambling establishment?

And, own from my home state (where it is legal), own a business that provides medical marijuana to patients?

Is there a line to be drawn somewhere? Personal revelation for each individual's situation?

We are the ones commanded to abstain, is it a sin for a Jew or Muslim to sell ham? I ask because I do not know...

[rockpond]

That fact that the the preface to the Word of Wisdom says that it was not given by way of commandment is not really dispositive unless one is willing to engage in rhetorical games with the Lord. If you do, you lose. But the Lord is merciful.

It's not a rhetorical game. The Lord said it's not a commandment.

I think that maybe you missed SA's point... he hasn't suggested that he doesn't plan to live the WoW. Nor has he suggested that a follower of Christ shouldn't live it. I don't believe he has ever denied the blessings associated with the law.

He's saying that there isn't a specific covenant related to the Word of Wisdom. I believe he's right. He is also saying that it isn't a commandment. The fact that church membership voted to make it binding doesn't convert it to a commandment as if the Lord had given it.

I live the Word of Wisdom, though there are some areas I could improve (not with respect to abstaining from alcohol, coffee, tobacco, etc ...that's easy for me). I plan to always live the Word of Wisdom. I would recommend it to members and non-members alike. I believe the Lord and the blessings he promised.

I also agree with you that a wise follower of Christ would obey the WoW.

But none of that changes the fact that the Lord did not give it as a commandment. And I'm not aware of a specific covenant to live it.

Does it matter that I didn't covenant to live it? I dunno. Maybe not cause I'm gonna do it anyway.

[Mark Beesley]

It's not a rhetorical game. The Lord said it's not a commandment.

I think that maybe you missed SA's point... he hasn't suggested that he doesn't plan to live the WoW. Nor has he suggested that a follower of Christ shouldn't live it. I don't believe he has ever denied the blessings associated with the law.

He's saying that there isn't a specific covenant related to the Word of Wisdom. I believe he's right. He is also saying that it isn't a commandment. The fact that church membership voted to make it binding doesn't convert it to a commandment as if the Lord had given it.

I live the Word of Wisdom, though there are some areas I could improve (not with respect to abstaining from alcohol, coffee, tobacco, etc ...that's easy for me). I plan to always live the Word of Wisdom. I would recommend it to members and non-members alike. I believe the Lord and the blessings he promised.

I also agree with you that a wise follower of Christ would obey the WoW.

But none of that changes the fact that the Lord did not give it as a commandment. And I'm not aware of a specific covenant to live it.

Does it matter that I didn't covenant to live it? I dunno. Maybe not cause I'm gonna do it anyway.

I think my complete analysis was sound and leads to a fair conclusion that the Word of Wisdom is a commandment that we are under covenant to obey.

The verbiage of Section 89:2 is rather interesting. The Lord does not say it is not a commandment. Here's what He says:

To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days

I believe some individual pondering may be warranted to discern what the Lord intended to convey when He said, "not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom." Seems to convey the methodology of the conveyance, not the nature thereof.

One thing is certain, obedience to the Word of Wisdom is the order and will of God.

[Saints Alive]

The verbiage of Section 89:2 is rather interesting. The Lord does not say it is not a commandment. Here's what He says:

I believe some individual pondering may be warranted to discern what the Lord intended to convey when He said, "not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom." Seems to convey the methodology of the conveyance, not the nature thereof.

One thing is certain, obedience to the Word of Wisdom is the order and will of God.

Another Important aspect of the verse is the line that says "for the temporal salvation of the Saints" That leads me to believe that obedience to the word of wisdom has nothing to do with your eternal salvation.

It's not a rhetorical game. The Lord said it's not a commandment.

I think that maybe you missed SA's point... he hasn't suggested that he doesn't plan to live the WoW. Nor has he suggested that a follower of Christ shouldn't live it. I don't believe he has ever denied the blessings associated with the law.

He's saying that there isn't a specific covenant related to the Word of Wisdom. I believe he's right. He is also saying that it isn't a commandment. The fact that church membership voted to make it binding doesn't convert it to a commandment as if the Lord had given it.

I live the Word of Wisdom, though there are some areas I could improve (not with respect to abstaining from alcohol, coffee, tobacco, etc ...that's easy for me). I plan to always live the Word of Wisdom. I would recommend it to members and non-members alike. I believe the Lord and the blessings he promised.

I also agree with you that a wise follower of Christ would obey the WoW.

But none of that changes the fact that the Lord did not give it as a commandment. And I'm not aware of a specific covenant to live it.

Does it matter that I didn't covenant to live it? I dunno. Maybe not cause I'm gonna do it anyway.

THANK YOU Rockpond!!!! finally someone who gets it! I would have given you 100 rep points if I could.

[Mark Beesley]

Another Important aspect of the verse is the line that says "for the temporal salvation of the Saints" That leads me to believe that obedience to the word of wisdom has nothing to do with your eternal salvation.

THANK YOU Rockpond!!!! finally someone who gets it! I would have given you 100 rep points if I could.

I will assume you understand the difference between "getting it" and "agreeing with you." I totally get what you are saying. I simply disagree. So, do I get a rep point for "getting it?"

[Avatar4321]

Feel free to tell the Bishop you dont have to obey the Word of Wisdom at your next Temple Recommend interview. I dont think he's going to accept your argument

[Saints Alive]

Feel free to tell the Bishop you dont have to obey the Word of Wisdom at your next Temple Recommend interview. I dont think he's going to accept your argument

Thats not exactly my position... Not that it is any of your business but, my bishop is fully aware of my position and said he has no problem with it.

[Mark Beesley]

Thats not exactly my position... Not that it is any of your business but, my bishop is fully aware of my position and said he has no problem with it.

I am a little curious. You do not believe that we are under covenant to obey the Word of Wisdom. You do not believe that obedience to the Word of Wisdom is commanded of God. And you do not believe that breaking the Word of Wisdom has anything to do with our eternal salvation. Is that correct?

So, what is your position as to why we should keep the Word of Wisdom?

What is the motivation for someone like me, who really enjoyed using marijuana (a useful herb in my opinion), not to use occasionally?

[Saints Alive]

I am a little curious. You do not believe that we are under covenant to obey the Word of Wisdom. You do not believe that obedience to the Word of Wisdom is commanded of God. And you do not believe that breaking the Word of Wisdom has anything to do with our eternal salvation. Is that correct?

More or less.

So, what is your position as to why we should keep the Word of Wisdom?

Because The Lord said it's a wise thing to do, yet I am an imperfect being so I often fall short of perfect obedience to the WoW. I eat too much meat and eat fruit and vegetables out of season, so I am glad that it is not a commandment.

What is the motivation for someone like me, who really enjoyed using marijuana (a useful herb in my opinion), not to use occasionally?

I'd say the biggest reason would be because of 12th AofF and that currently marijuana usage is a federal crime. As far as the WoW is concerned, that's between you and God.

[Saints Alive]

Feel free to tell the Bishop you dont have to obey the Word of Wisdom at your next Temple Recommend interview. I dont think he's going to accept your argument

I'm not even sure why that would come up at a TR interview. you are NOT asked if you covenant to obey the WoW, you are NOT asked if you believe it is a Commandment, you ARE asked do you keep the WoW. So I don't see what would be wrong with my position.

[Mark Beesley]

More or less.

Because The Lord said it's a wise thing to do, yet I am an imperfect being so I often fall short of perfect obedience to the WoW. I eat too much meat and eat fruit and vegetables out of season, so I am glad that it is not a commandment.

I'd say the biggest reason would be because of 12th AofF and that currently marijuana usage is a federal crime. As far as the WoW is concerned, that's between you and God.

The 12th Article of Faith is not an issue. I have had in the past, and could now (if I so chose) obtain a doctor's recommendation to use marijuana. The Department of Justice has taken a hands off approach to medical marijuana use in states where it is legal. In the next year or two, marijuana will be permitted by federal law in those state which choose to legalize it.

So, that leaves it between me and God (as per your statement, with which I agree), and from what I understand you to be saying God won't punish me for using because I have not broken a covenant or a commandment, with or without a doctor's recommendation. Hmmmm . . . .

Are you comfortable publicizing a stand such as this which might entice weaker persons (like me ) to use marijuana?

On Judgment Day, when we stand before the Lord, if we find out breaking the Word of Wisdom was a violation of both a covenant and a commandment, will you be willing to step in to suffer the punishment reserved for me and anyone else who was swayed by your arguments and are found guilt of breaking the Word of Wisdom?

[Saints Alive]

Are you comfortable publicizing a stand such as this which might entice weaker persons (like me ) to use marijuana?

On Judgment Day, when we stand before the Lord, if we find out breaking the Word of Wisdom was a violation of both a covenant and a commandment, will you be willing to step in to suffer the punishment reserved for me and anyone else who was swayed by your arguments and are found guilt of breaking the Word of Wisdom?

I said its between you and God, so I don't think I will be punished for your transgressions if that is the case. Also, I am not in any leadership position, and certainly am not in a leadership position over you, so I am only entitled to revelation for myself and my family. I would hope that you would seek personal revelation from God and not rely on me or any other man to tell you what to smoke or not smoke.

[Mark Beesley]

I said its between you and God, so I don't think I will be punished for your transgressions if that is the case. Also, I am not in any leadership position, and certainly am not in a leadership position over you, so I am only entitled to revelation for myself and my family. I would hope that you would seek personal revelation from God and not rely on me or any other man to tell you what to smoke or not smoke.

Well, Christ said that people who cause others to stumble will be accountable. He didn't restrict it to leaders. Did God reveal to you that the Word of Wisdom is not the subject of covenant or commandment? And if so, you should gladly agree to defend me at the Bar of God if the need arises. So . . . ?

[Saints Alive]

Since the WoW doesn't directly mention marijuana one way or the other, and I am not advocating that anyone smoke it, I'm not sure that I could do that.

[Rock_N_Roll]

rockpond, on 19 April 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

One can hold to the view that homosexuals should have a right to legally recognized marriage and still be faithful.

If you say so...

I say so...So does my bishop and my Stake President.