Can You Be Faithful And Own A Business That Serves Alcohol?

[rockpond]

I believe some individual pondering may be warranted to discern what the Lord intended to convey when He said, "not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom." Seems to convey the methodology of the conveyance, not the nature thereof.

One thing is certain, obedience to the Word of Wisdom is the order and will of God.

I'm curious then, given your position on this, what do you make of the fact that Section 89 wasn't really obeyed for quite some time after having been revealed? Just leadership fallibility? Because it seems to me that the Prophet Joseph who received it didn't necessarily view it as a commandment.

[Saints Alive]

rockpond, on 19 April 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

One can hold to the view that homosexuals should have a right to legally recognized marriage and still be faithful.

I say so...So does my bishop and my Stake President.

What's your point?

[KevinG]

Y'all ought to check in with Prophets since 1900 if you think the World of Widsom is not a commandment or that Pot is not covered by the Word of Widsom.

"While the revelation came first as a “greeting; not by commandment or constraint” (D&C 89:2), when members of the Church had had time to be taught the import of the revelation, succeeding Presidents of the Church declared it to be a commandment. And it was accepted by the Church as such.

The Word of Wisdom was “given for a principle with promise” (D&C 89:3). That word principle in the revelation is a very important one. A principle is an enduring truth, a law, a rule you can adopt to guide you in making decisions. Generally principles are not spelled out in detail. That leaves you free to find your way with an enduring truth, a principle, as your anchor.

Members write in asking if this thing or that is against the Word of Wisdom. It’s well known that tea, coffee, liquor, and tobacco are against it. It has not been spelled out in more detail. Rather, we teach the principle together with the promised blessings. There are many habit-forming, addictive things that one can drink or chew or inhale or inject which injure both body and spirit which are not mentioned in the revelation.

Everything harmful is not specifically listed; arsenic, for instance—certainly bad, but not habit-forming! He who must be commanded in all things, the Lord said, “is a slothful and not a wise servant” (D&C 58:26).

- Apostle Boyd K Packer (April 1996 General Conference)

[KevinG]

It is my observation that faithful Saints can own businesses that sell alcohol, coffee and pornographic movies. It helps if they donate enough money to Brigham Young University to build a basketball arena and a school of business.

(the above is sarcasm for the humor impaired)

[Saints Alive]

Y'all ought to check in with Prophets since 1900 if you think the World of Widsom is not a commandment or that Pot is not covered by the Word of Widsom.

"While the revelation came first as a “greeting; not by commandment or constraint” (D&C 89:2), when members of the Church had had time to be taught the import of the revelation, succeeding Presidents of the Church declared it to be a commandment. And it was accepted by the Church as such.

The Word of Wisdom was “given for a principle with promise” (D&C 89:3). That word principle in the revelation is a very important one. A principle is an enduring truth, a law, a rule you can adopt to guide you in making decisions. Generally principles are not spelled out in detail. That leaves you free to find your way with an enduring truth, a principle, as your anchor.

Members write in asking if this thing or that is against the Word of Wisdom. It’s well known that tea, coffee, liquor, and tobacco are against it. It has not been spelled out in more detail. Rather, we teach the principle together with the promised blessings. There are many habit-forming, addictive things that one can drink or chew or inhale or inject which injure both body and spirit which are not mentioned in the revelation.

Everything harmful is not specifically listed; arsenic, for instance—certainly bad, but not habit-forming! He who must be commanded in all things, the Lord said, “is a slothful and not a wise servant” (D&C 58:26).

- Apostle Boyd K Packer (April 1996 General Conference)

You're missing the point, apostles and prophets say a lot of things in conference. Saying something in conference does not make doctrine (as we should all be painfully aware of because of the curse of Cain and Adam-god "doctrine").

The only safe standard, beyond personal revelation, is to add cannon. That shouldn't be a problem since we believe in an open cannon, yet we have had no new doctrine since 1978.

[KevinG]

You're missing the point, apostles and prophets say a lot of things in conference. Saying something in conference does not make doctrine (as we should all be painfully aware of because of the curse of Cain and Adam-god "doctrine").

The only safe standard, beyond personal revelation, is to add cannon. That shouldn't be a problem since we believe in an open cannon, yet we have had no new doctrine since 1978.

Smoking Pot and drinking booze is not a particular item I would pick off the caferteria Mormon menu.

What is your threshold for the number and frequency of prophets and apostles declaring something a commandment before you would consider it a commandment?

http://en.fairmormon.org/Word_of_Wisdom/History_and_implementation

[Saints Alive]

Smoking Pot and drinking booze is not a particular item I would pick off the caferteria Mormon menu.

What is your threshold for the number and frequency of prophets and apostles declaring something a commandment before you would consider it a commandment?

http://en.fairmormon.org/Word_of_Wisdom/History_and_implementation

It's not about frequency, it's about revelation. You can't change cannon without added new cannon. If HF feels so strongly about the WoW being a commandment now, even though it wasn't then, why not added it to the D&C?

[thesometimesaint]

Smoking Pot and drinking booze is not a particular item I would pick off the caferteria Mormon menu.

What is your threshold for the number and frequency of prophets and apostles declaring something a commandment before you would consider it a commandment?

http://en.fairmormon..._implementation

The number of earrings in your ears while it maybe good advice isn't a commandment.

[KevinG]

It's not about frequency, it's about revelation. You can't change cannon without added new cannon. If HF feels so strongly about the WoW being a commandment now, even though it wasn't then, why not added it to the D&C?

I am reminded of the joke that starts with a man was praying to be saved from a flood and ends with the punchline "but I send a boat, a swimmer and a helecopter..."

[KevinG]

The number of earrings in your ears while it maybe good advice isn't a commandment.

Non sequitor. If several prophets and apostles over the century declared that the counsel given by President Hinckley was now to be considered a commendment I would take it with a bit more weight than a suggestion or counsel.

[Mark Beesley]

I'm curious then, given your position on this, what do you make of the fact that Section 89 wasn't really obeyed for quite some time after having been revealed? Just leadership fallibility? Because it seems to me that the Prophet Joseph who received it didn't necessarily view it as a commandment.

Don't know if I really staked out a position on how the verbiage of Section 89 should be understood. I think I said that it is probably a good topic for individual pondering. Beyond that, my position is that whatever the Lord's intent when Section 89 was initially revealed, the Saint now are commanded to obey and have covenanted to do so. I don't think it is a gray area. But I could be mistaken.

[Saints Alive]

. Beyond that, my position is that whatever the Lord's intent when Section 89 was initially revealed, the Saint now are commanded to obey and have covenanted to do so. I don't think it is a gray area. But I could be mistaken.

The only way you can make that argument is if you believe the Saints have Covenanted to obey it in a very generic sense. I.e. we covenant to follow Christ, the leaders are lead by Christ and have said the WoW is now a commandment, therefore we covenant to obey it by virtue of covenanting to obey The Lord. That is a very round about way to covenant to do something. I just don't understand why The Lord could reveal the WoW to JS and not come out latter and reveal that it is now a commandment and that we need to covenant to obey it. It seems The Lord has been remarkably silent since D&C 138.

[Mark Beesley]

The only way you can make that argument is if you believe the Saints have Covenanted to obey it in a very generic sense. I.e. we covenant to follow Christ, the leaders are lead by Christ and have said the WoW is now a commandment, therefore we covenant to obey it by virtue of covenanting to obey The Lord. That is a very round about way to covenant to do something. I just don't understand why The Lord could reveal the WoW to JS and not come out latter and reveal that it is now a commandment and that we need to covenant to obey it. It seems The Lord has been remarkably silent since D&C 138.

Oh, I don't know SA. I think there are lots of ways I can make the argument. But, you have proven to be remarkably resilient against change, so why bother?

[Saints Alive]

Oh, I don't know SA. I think there are lots of ways I can make the argument. But, you have proven to be remarkably resilient against change, so why bother?

no, but if I am going to do something, especially if I am going to covenant to do something, I need to be darn sure that it is from The Lord and not something Church Inc. cooked up in correlation.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I would be comfortable serving beer with a low serving amount per customer... 1 and done.

[Mark Beesley]

Church Inc.

The use of this single term speaks volumes as to where your head is at. It is not surprising that someone who can refer to the Church of Jesus Christ, referred to in the Scriptures as The Body of Christ, in this manner is resistant to recognizing the covenant nature of obedience to the Word of Wisdom. Once you begin to view the Church as nothing more than an earthly institution comparable to a corporation, it is easy to focus on the fallible nature of the leaders of the Church and miss out on the subtle revelation that has governed, still governs, and will continue to govern the Church.

[CV75]

Here's a story on the Sutherland Institute criticizing an LDS restaurant owner in Provo because he chooses to serve alcohol in his restaurant...

http://www.cityweekl...sell-booze.html

I happen to disagree with the Sutherland Institute on this one but they raise interesting points... As a faithful member of the church is it "okay" to:

Own a business that is open on Sunday?

Serve coffee/tea in your business?

Serve alcohol in your business?

Own a gambling establishment?

And, own from my home state (where it is legal), own a business that provides medical marijuana to patients?

Is there a line to be drawn somewhere? Personal revelation for each individual's situation?

I think the question might be, "When you own a busines that [fill in the blank] can others remain faithful?" The only ones you would know about are those you know, and your overall and not specific example will help them stay faithful. Also your words as directed by the Spirit. The line to draw is when you are convinced that those closest to you and/or most important to you cannot remain faithful because they don't understand why you do what you do--I think it is better to find another line of business than to alienate them from the Spirit. So, yes, I'd lean toward personal revelation, including those areas that should be no-brainers.

[Saints Alive]

The use of this single term speaks volumes as to where your head is at. It is not surprising that someone who can refer to the Church of Jesus Christ, referred to in the Scriptures as The Body of Christ, in this manner is resistant to recognizing the covenant nature of obedience to the Word of Wisdom. Once you begin to view the Church as nothing more than an earthly institution comparable to a corporation, it is easy to focus on the fallible nature of the leaders of the Church and miss out on the subtle revelation that has governed, still governs, and will continue to govern the Church.

there is a world of difference between the True Church of Christ and the policies and procedures that have came out of the church office building. I choose to separate the True gospel of Christ from the fluff and filler added over the years.

[Saints Alive]

Once you begin to view the Church as nothing more than an earthly institution comparable to a corporation, it is easy to focus on the fallible nature of the leaders of the Church and miss out on the subtle revelation that has governed, still governs, and will continue to govern the Church.

What happens when you confuse the corporation that represents the church with the true Gospel of Christ? You get fake covenants and unscriptural commandments.

[ERayR]

The use of this single term speaks volumes as to where your head is at. It is not surprising that someone who can refer to the Church of Jesus Christ, referred to in the Scriptures as The Body of Christ, in this manner is resistant to recognizing the covenant nature of obedience to the Word of Wisdom. Once you begin to view the Church as nothing more than an earthly institution comparable to a corporation, it is easy to focus on the fallible nature of the leaders of the Church and miss out on the subtle revelation that has governed, still governs, and will continue to govern the Church.

I recognize the covenant nature of the Word of Wisdom. However it is a good idea to recognize what you are coventing to and what you are not and to recognize you are making those covenants for you personally and it is not for you to enforce them onto others.

[ERayR]

What happens when you confuse the corporation that represents the church with the true Gospel of Christ? You get fake covenants and unscriptural commandments.

And when one begins to be prideful in their thoughts and actions the ice on the pond begins to get quite thin.

[Saints Alive]

And when one begins to be prideful in their thoughts and actions the ice on the pond begins to get quite thin.

Its not a matter of pride, its a matter of principle fundamental to our religion.

[Mark Beesley]

there is a world of difference between the True Church of Christ and the policies and procedures that have came out of the church office building. I choose to separate the True gospel of Christ from the fluff and filler added over the years.

And now continuing revelation has become "fluff and filler . . . "

[Mark Beesley]

I recognize the covenant nature of the Word of Wisdom. However it is a good idea to recognize what you are coventing to and what you are not and to recognize you are making those covenants for you personally and it is not for you to enforce them onto others.

I agree totally. I'm not in a position to enforce anything, only offer my opinions. I hope that is allowed.

[Mark Beesley]

It is sometimes interesting to go back in a topic and review what people have posted. Saints Alive, for whom the Church has become a worldly corporation and continuing revelation has become "fluff and filler" entered this thread with a comment that seemed to question the faithfulness of the Marriott family because of their company's position on gay marriage. I'm not quite sure what to think of that.