Mormons And The Cross--A Podcast Interview On My Book

[Mike Reed]

I am pleased with how it turned out. Hope you enjoy it.

http://feministmormonhousewivespodcast.org/episode-51-when-sacred-things-become-mormon-taboos-the-cross/

[Bernard Gui]

Lindsey: "So, what your are saying is, if I go to a swap meet and I see a really cute pair of crucifix ear rings, I can wear them without guilt?"

MR: "Go for it...it also might be a conversation starter for you in church..."

Lindsey: "Those out there who still have good will with your wards, you wear those crucifix ear rings!"

MR: "Go for it."

Nothing says "I'm a Christian" better than some crucifix bling!

http://www.fridaypho...stian-bling.jpg

These are pretty cute. They should start some good conversations, especially during the passing of the sacrament:

http://site.hiphopbl...ng-earrings.jpg

And for you cowpersons out there, here's some cuteness for your boots:

http://img0.etsystat...328544_2ju3.jpg

And your jeans:

http://images1.ameri...ay_31123467.jpg

This is adorable:

http://www.artfire.c...ss_a691302a.jpg

Edited April 23, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

a really cute pair of crucifix ear rings

The idea that anyone would link "cute" and "crucifix" (not "cross") together is astounding to me...and honestly very disturbing.

Crosses and crucifixes as fashion statements really miss the whole point, imo...or intentionally ignore it which is much worse.

Edited April 23, 2013 by calmoriah

[Bernard Gui]

The idea that anyone would link "cute" and "crucifix" (not "cross") together is astounding to me...and honestly very disturbing.

Crosses and crucifixes as fashion statements really miss the whole point, imo...or intentionally ignore it which is much worse.

Indeed. I was surprised by Mike Reed's enthusiastic endorsement.

The cross as bling,IMO, is blasphemy. Perhaps we should recognize

the wisdom of our leaders who separated the church from the icon before

it was denigrated..

[Tacenda]

Indeed. I was surprised by Mike Reed's enthusiastic endorsement.

The cross as bling,IMO, is blasphemy. Perhaps we should recognize

the wisdom of our leaders who separated the church from the icon before

it was denigrated..

The cross is a symbol, not a weapon. To some they want that symbol in their lives just as the temple is a symbol. I guess it's wrong for some and not for others? How about the urging of us to have a picture of the temple in our homes? Not the portrait of our Saviour though or a cross. Do you want people to wear a picture of Jesus on their body? Someone would laugh them off as a Jesus lover, "Oh, the shame!". Oh, and it's okay to sell a "CTR" ring at Deseret Book. And idolize the Nephi super hero. But stop the presses when we want to do this with the cross. I've had it with members of my faith, the talks in church, the lack of talks centered on the Saviour. I can't count on one hand a Sacrament Meeting about the Saviour ALONE! It's the Saviour for sure but in a round about way. I think Joseph Smith is looking at our current Sacrament Meetings and wondering what happened. And our shyness with the cross.

[Calm]

The cross is a symbol, not a weapon. To some they want that symbol in their lives just as the temple is a symbol.

He said "the cross as bling"...that is specifically not treating the cross as a symbol of Christ, but as a fashion statement.

I agree with him. And I would criticize anyone who used the temple, the angel Moroni or any other symbol in the LDS faith as a motif because it looked "cute" or "cool" as that divorces it from its spiritual symbolic meaning.

To me, it is the same thing as using God's name as an expletive without actually referencing Christ or the Father.

[Okrahomer]

Indeed. I was surprised by Mike Reed's enthusiastic endorsement.

The cross as bling,IMO, is blasphemy. Perhaps we should recognize

the wisdom of our leaders who separated the church from the icon before

it was denigrated..

Very well said.

[Mike Reed]

The idea that anyone would link "cute" and "crucifix" (not "cross") together is astounding to me...and honestly very disturbing.

Lighten up. The words cross and crucifix are often used interchangeably. I explain this in the last chapter of my book. Lindsey was using the terms interchangeably. I, however, avoid doing so in my book.

[Mike Reed]

He said "the cross as bling"...that is specifically not treating the cross as a symbol of Christ, but as a fashion statement.

I think you've read too much into our words. She said cute, not bling. When I said "go for it" it was in response to the concern of whether she should feel "guilty" for wearing them.

[cinepro]

I agree with him. And I would criticize anyone who used the temple, the angel Moroni or any other symbol in the LDS faith as a motif because it looked "cute" or "cool" as that divorces it from its spiritual symbolic meaning.

?

[Mike Reed]

?

Can you imagine Cal "criticizing" someone for such an ornament? I don't buy it. At least I sure hope Cal would never do such a thing. We have enough intollerent people in the Church as it is.

[Mike Reed]

To say "I found a cute pair of earrings" is similar to me saying "I found a really cool cross necklace." It is a figure of speech, saying that you like how they look compared to other styles I could have worn. Some cross jewelry is more asthetically pleasing to the eye than other jewelry. Big deal.

Edited April 24, 2013 by Mike Reed

[Mike Reed]

Delete

Edited April 24, 2013 by Mike Reed

[Calm]

Can you imagine Cal "criticizing" someone for such an ornament? I don't buy it. At least I sure hope Cal would never do such a thing. We have enough intollerent people in the Church as it is.

I used to have to sell them in the store I worked at. I thought of them as tacky...they look much better in the picture than they do up close as unless things have changed they were made of what looked like cheap lightweight plastic. I have also criticized certain other fashions...like buying something because it was claimed that Joseph Smith owned one just like it. And certain attitudes....like feeling 'safe' to buy anything in the church bookstore because it must have been approved by the Church leadership (which of course was false).

For me what matters is the intent for which one is either selling or using such things. What is appropriate for one person is not for another because of their intent....intent that is based on pride or idol worship (in the sense of substituting a false, inappropriate worship for a pure one) is usually one I don't highly approve of.

Edited April 24, 2013 by calmoriah

[Scott Lloyd]

I used to have to sell them in the store I worked at. I thought of them as tacky...they look much better in the picture than they do up close as unless things have changed they were made of what looked like cheap lightweight plastic. I have also criticized certain other fashions...like buying something because it was claimed that Joseph Smith owned one just like it. And certain attitudes....like feeling 'safe' to buy anything in the church bookstore because it must have been approved by the Church leadership (which of course was false).

For me what matters is the intent for which one is either selling or using such things. What is appropriate for one person is not for another because of their intent....intent that is based on pride or idol worship (in the sense of substituting a false, inappropriate worship for a pure one) is usually one I don't highly approve of.

We have one of the Moroni tree toppers at our house, and we use it every Christmas season.

I like it, because it gives me the option of having an authentic angel represented on our tree rather than the mythical winged variety that has been served up to us since the Middle Ages.

I have to say I do see a difference between a cross and a Moroni statue replica as cultural ornamentation, simply because of their inherent respective symbolism.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[why me]

To say "I found a cute pair of earrings" is similar to me saying "I found a really cool cross necklace." It is a figure of speech, saying that you like how they look compared to other styles I could have worn. Some cross jewelry is more asthetically pleasing to the eye than other jewelry. Big deal.

I need to be honest here. I am tired of your book and of your subject. It has now been going on for years. And to be truthful, I couldn't care less about the topic. But now that I have been hearing about your book and master's thesis for some odd years, my cup is over flowing and I can't take it anymore. I do hope that you will get another interest because you seemed to have exhausted this topic.

[why me]

We have enough intollerent people in the Church as it is.

I don't know about this. What do you mean by intolerant? I don't see many intolerant people at all. In europe they are far and few between. Most european members are very tolerant. So, what exactly is enough?

[Tacenda]

I need to be honest here. I am tired of your book and of your subject. It has now been going on for years. And to be truthful, I couldn't care less about the topic. But now that I have been hearing about your book and master's thesis for some odd years, my cup is over flowing and I can't take it anymore. I do hope that you will get another interest because you seemed to have exhausted this topic.

Why Me what if someone said that to a missionary when they bring up the BoM? Should they say "I am tired of your book and of your subject". Maybe it's a message that Mike feels needs to be said. It might even be coming from God, you never know.

[Calm]

We have one of the Moroni tree toppers at our house, and we use it every Christmas season.

I like it, because it gives me the option of having an authentic angel represented on our tree rather than the mythical winged variety that has been served up to us since the Middle Ages.

I have to say I do see a difference between a cross and a Moroni statue replica as cultural ornamentation, simply because of their inherent respective symbolism.

I am sure it looks better on the tree than it did in the box, plus I think I was there only the first year that they made them and it is possible that they have improved the quality (better paint, not as obvious a mold line, that kind of thing that can make plastic look very cheap).

I have to admit I have an issue with plastic Christmas tree ornaments, probably because the ones I've had end up looking faded, etc. while the glass, metal and ceramic ones I've bought or inherited from my mom are still as good looking as they were when they were first bought.

My deepest darkest secret that I am actually somewhat ashamed of....I really don't like having kids or neighbours' homemade ornaments on my tree...I will put them on, but cringe as I do so and in a few years, they end up staying in the boxes...we need two trees in my house, one for me to decorate and one for the kids to play with.

Edited May 7, 2013 by calmoriah

[Mike Reed]

I need to be honest here. I am tired of your book and of your subject. It has now been going on for years. And to be truthful, I couldn't care less about the topic. But now that I have been hearing about your book and master's thesis for some odd years, my cup is over flowing and I can't take it anymore. I do hope that you will get another interest because you seemed to have exhausted this topic.

LOL! You were tired from the start. I'm not surprised that you'd remain bitter, considering our past engagements such as this: http://www.mormondia...entry1208653119

http://www.mormondia...entry1208653866

Edited May 8, 2013 by Mike Reed

[Scott Lloyd]

I am sure it looks better on the tree than it did in the box, plus I think I was there only the first year that they made them and it is possible that they have improved the quality (better paint, not as obvious a mold line, that kind of thing that can make plastic look very cheap).

I doubt it has improved any since you sold them. At least not when we bought it, which was about a decade ago at an LDS book and gift shop near the Winter Quarters Nebraska Temple when my family and I were there for the dedication. I'm sure you have a keener aesthetic eye than I do.

Thing is, I had long wished for a miniature Moroni statue to place on our Christmas tree for the reason I gave in my previous post. I didn't even know whether such a thing was available. Then I was delighted to see this one at the store in Omaha, so I immediately snapped it up, cheap plastic notwithstanding.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Mike Reed]

BTW... in case anyone else (besides Bernard or WhyMe) is interested, the book can be previewed on amazon here:

http://www.amazon.com/Banishing-Cross-Emergence-Mormon-Taboo/dp/1934901350/

A book review read here:

http://forums.mormonletters.org/yaf_postsm2532_Reed-Banishing-the-Cross-The-Emergence-of-a-Mormon-Taboo-reviewed-by-Boyd-J-Petersen.aspx#2532

And a facebook page can be found (perhaps even "liked") here:

https://www.facebook.com/BanishingTheCross?fref=ts

[why me]

Why Me what if someone said that to a missionary when they bring up the BoM? Should they say "I am tired of your book and of your subject". Maybe it's a message that Mike feels needs to be said. It might even be coming from God, you never know.

Mike has been talking about this for quite some time. It was interesting a few years ago but now....I am losing interest because I have heard it all. The cross is a topic but the book of mormon is a book with many subtopics that one can pick and choose to commment on. If someone picked out one topic from the book of mormon and posted all their posts about his topic for several years, I may become tired of that topic too. Also, I do believe that Mike uses this topic to score points against the church. I felt this when he did the FMH interview.

[why me]

LOL! You were tired from the start. I'm not surprised that you'd remain bitter, considering our past engagements such as this: http://www.mormondia...entry1208653119

http://www.mormondia...entry1208653866

Well, those exchanges occurred four years ago. And that was my point. The topic has gone on and on. My point is very simple about it: Overtime, the church had a rethink about the use of the cross until it was abandoned as a symbol of lds christology. The idea of a living christ at the expense of a dying christ became acceptable. For the lds, christ is a living symbol of what we should try to become. And he is our brother and our heavenly father is a very personal father. Both exist and can help us through life. Thus, for the lds there is no reason for a cross and especially a crucifix with the dying christ on it. This is my explanation for the abandonment of the cross over time.

[Calm]

I'm sure you have a keener aesthetic eye than I do.

My mother is an artist and she always made sure we had quality stuff instead of quantity. She even made us Barbie clothes that were pretty much smaller versions of high end actual clothing that could have been given to her grandkids if she hadn't been silly/gullible enough to pass them on to a family that probably sold them. I didn't like playing with Barbies much so I didn't feel that bad except now I could have passed them on to my grandkids who do love Barbies...they were made that well. We never got to decorate our rooms, they were always perfect creations...and we loved them so it wasn't like she ignored us. Even her meals are works of art (with a taste that matches the presentation).

Her one faux pas was an excess of patriotic feeling where she decorated the Christmas tree in a red, white and blue motif for 1976 (she did it for Christmas 1975). I don't think it made it all the way to July though she was hoping it might. We still laugh about it from time to time....

Thing is, I had long wished for a miniature Moroni statue to place on our Christmas tree for the reason I gave in my previous post. I didn't even know whether such a thing was available. Then I was delighted to see this one at the store in Omaha, so I immediately snapped it up, cheap plastic notwithstanding.

You know what, sometimes it doesn't matter what something actually looks like....it is the image you hold of it in your head and heart that matters. I have a few of those things myself. Edited May 8, 2013 by calmoriah