Mormons And The Cross--A Podcast Interview On My Book

[Bernard Gui]

BTW... in case anyone else (besides Bernard or WhyMe) is interested, the book can be previewed on amazon here:

http://www.amazon.co.../dp/1934901350/

A book review read here:

http://forums.mormon...ersen.aspx#2532

And a facebook page can be found (perhaps even "liked") here:

https://www.facebook...heCross?fref=ts

If I weren't interested, I wouldn't have commented at length here and in another discussion that I started.

The cross is at the core of the LDS religion. That it does not appear on our buildings, clothing, tattooed on our

skin, hanging from our ear lobes, on our cowboy boots, motorcycle helmets, car bumpers, t-shirts, painted

on our fingernails, or emblazoned on our electric guitars says nothing about our devotion to it. I think you

are looking for it in the wrong places.

[Bernard Gui]

To say "I found a cute pair of earrings" is similar to me saying "I found a really cool cross necklace." It is a figure of speech, saying that you like how they look compared to other styles I could have worn. Some cross jewelry is more asthetically pleasing to the eye than other jewelry. Big deal.

Here are some cute cross earrings:

http://www.hierarchy...-Cross-Earrings

And for men, well maybe not cute:

http://www.nulime.com/skull-bones-necklace-cross-jewelry-mens/p904589

They would be quite the conversation starter in sacrament meeting. Even in the celestial room at the temple.

Nothing says "I'm a Christian" like cross bling.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

?

Oh My! Comes to mind...

[Mike Reed]

That it does not appear on our buildings, clothing, tattooed on our

skin, hanging from our ear lobes, on our cowboy boots, motorcycle helmets, car bumpers, t-shirts, painted

on our fingernails, or emblazoned on our electric guitars says nothing about our devotion to it. I think you

are looking for it in the wrong places.

I have looked at precisely the right places. The subject of my thesis is the taboo. In the intro to my book I have made my thesis clear that my study is concerned with the material/visual symbol of the cross. The focus is not visual/material depictions, not literary/verbal symbols, and not literary/verbal descriptions. In the first two of these three contexts there has only been a mild concern for the cross, and the third has had little or no concern. Again... the taboo exists for visual/material symbols. That may be too nuanced for you to grasp, but that's not my problem. This is what the evidence indicates... and I prove it in my book. Take it for what it is worth. Just know that if you think this is a rebuttal to a book you haven't read... well then you are jousting at windmills, my friend.

[Mike Reed]

For what it's worth, FAIR is selling my book too. And at a great price: http://bookstore.fai...id_product=1485

Edited June 5, 2013 by Mike Reed

[Jude2]

LOL! You were tired from the start. I'm not surprised that you'd remain bitter, considering our past engagements such as this: http://www.mormondia...entry1208653119

http://www.mormondia...entry1208653866

Hello Mike, I played hookie from High School with you mom, she lead this little freshmen astray.

Juvenile things like this get you a day of hookie courtesy of the Friendly Mods of MDD.

~Said Mods

I do own a cross and wear it with pride, I got it at the little church near ground zero in New York. It looks like that cross which was left standing after the buildings came down.

That Moroni tree topper is pretty tacky.

[Mike Reed]

Hello Mike, I played hookie from High School with you mom, she lead this little freshmen astray.

I do own a cross and wear it with pride, I got it at the little church near ground zero in New York. It looks like that cross which was left standing after the buildings came down.

That Moroni tree topper is pretty tacky.

My mother?

[Scott Lloyd]

That Moroni tree topper is pretty tacky.

Just wondering: Is it that particular tree topper you object to or the very idea of decorating a Christmas tree with a replica of the Moroni statue?

[Bernard Gui]

For what it's worth, FAIR is selling my book too. And at a great price: http://bookstore.fai...id_product=1485

The holy cross of Jesus rests at the core of our most sacred beliefs, ceremonies, and covenants. The most profound and intimate of all LDS relationships are inextricably bonded to, by, and through the cross and sacred symbols based upon it. Our fundamental doctrines are founded on it. It is adored in our most sacred weekly public ceremony, employed in our eternal marriages, used to authorize the eternal sealing of our children, assures the forgiveness of our sins, expresses our adoration of Jesus Christ, and confirms his role as creator of the world and Savior of all men. It is the most sacred symbol of our religion. To subject this solemn, holy, intimate object to the crass commercial exploitation of Babylon is blasphemy in the extreme. If you are looking for the cross in LDS cultural you must look in the hearts of its adherents, not on their buildings, lawns, jewelry, clothing, bumper stickers, dog collars, gun stocks, stockings, black velvet wall hangings, coffee and beer mugs, pierced noses, bellybutton rings, tattoos, the bling of pop culture, whatever. Wearing the cross does not make one a Christian any more than wearing a baseball cap makes one a major league baseball player. The cross of Jesus is only born within the human heart. If you look there, you will find it. In other words, you are looking for it in all the wrong places. Commercializing the most sacred event in human history is inexcusable. There is no nuance that can massage away this sacrilege. The cross occupies its appropriate place in our worship. Absolutely nothing would be gained by adding material or visual crosses to our worship and attire. Looking around at what has been done to it, I am thankful for prescient leaders who removed this issue from our church. At least in one place in this world, the sacred cross remains in its most sacred location. You will find it firmly ensconced there.

http://slodive.com/i...toos-for-women/

http://www.tattoosti...tattoo-on-back/

Edited June 5, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[Mike Reed]

You are still jousting windmills, Bernard. Read the book.

[Bernard Gui]

You are still jousting windmills, Bernard. Read the book.

Llenosele la fantasia de todo aquello que leia en los libros. The Don did not joust with the

windmills. Read the book. You are simply throwing Sancho Panza up in the air.

Sell your book. I'm sure it means a lot to you.

In the meantime, do something meaningful with the cross..

Edited June 5, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[rpn]

Mormons put temples and Angel Moroni on their tie tacks. How are crosses any different?

[Buckeye]

For what it's worth, FAIR is selling my book too. And at a great price: http://bookstore.fai...id_product=1485

Mike, any chance that a kindle version will come out?

[Mike Reed]

Mike, any chance that a kindle version will come out?

It will depend on sales, I think. When we come close to selling out of the paperbacks, we will likely then decide to do kindle and hardback editions.

[Buckeye]

It will depend on sales, I think. When we come close to selling out of the paperbacks, we will likely then decide to do kindle and hardback editions.

Paperback it is, then!

[Scott Lloyd]

It will depend on sales, I think. When we come close to selling out of the paperbacks, we will likely then decide to do kindle and hardback editions.

I can see holding off on hardback publication, but why does digital publication depend on how well the paperbacks sell? Isn't it just a matter of putting the content online? Wouldn't there be a substantial cost savings in overhead?

[Mike Reed]

I can see holding off on hardback publication, but why does digital publication depend on how well the paperbacks sell? Isn't it just a matter of putting the content online? Wouldn't there be a substantial cost savings in overhead?

We'd have to renegotiate a couple contracts for some of the photos we use... and some of this would cost money.

[teddyaware]

The holy cross of Jesus rests at the core of our most sacred beliefs, ceremonies, and covenants. The most profound and intimate of all LDS relationships are inextricably bonded to, by, and through the cross and sacred symbols based upon it. Our fundamental doctrines are founded on it. It is adored in our most sacred weekly public ceremony, employed in our eternal marriages, used to authorize the eternal sealing of our children, assures the forgiveness of our sins, expresses our adoration of Jesus Christ, and confirms his role as creator of the world and Savior of all men. It is the most sacred symbol of our religion. To subject this solemn, holy, intimate object to the crass commercial exploitation of Babylon is blasphemy in the extreme. If you are looking for the cross in LDS cultural you must look in the hearts of its adherents, not on their buildings, lawns, jewelry, clothing, bumper stickers, dog collars, gun stocks, stockings, black velvet wall hangings, coffee and beer mugs, pierced noses, bellybutton rings, tattoos, the bling of pop culture, whatever. Wearing the cross does not make one a Christian any more than wearing a baseball cap makes one a major league baseball player. The cross of Jesus is only born within the human heart. If you look there, you will find it. In other words, you are looking for it in all the wrong places. Commercializing the most sacred event in human history is inexcusable. There is no nuance that can massage away this sacrilege. The cross occupies its appropriate place in our worship. Absolutely nothing would be gained by adding material or visual crosses to our worship and attire. Looking around at what has been done to it, I am thankful for prescient leaders who removed this issue from our church. At least in one place in this world, the sacred cross remains in its most sacred location. You will find it firmly ensconced there.

http://slodive.com/i...toos-for-women/

http://www.tattoosti...tattoo-on-back/

I agree. I believe it is because of the extremely sacred nature of the crucifixion symbolism tied to the Lord's atonement that outward displays of the cross are not ordinarilly a part of LDS life. Are we not told that what happens within the walls of the temple is most sacred, and that the manner of worship that happens there and the symbols employed there are meant to be kept sacred within the heart, the lone exception being when we are actually worshipping within the temple? Wearing crosses as an adornment would be tantamount to wearing the temple garment out in the open for all the world to see, as if it were just an ordinary piece of street clothing.

Nevertheless, I think many members do not comprehend nor appreciated the great sacredness of the symbols of the Lord's crucifixion in our worship, even though that sacredness is so powerfully and unmistakably demonstrated. So what is the reason for this apparent obliviousness? Likely because in seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not...

Edited June 6, 2013 by teddyaware

[Jude2]

My mother?

Yes a group of us girls left seminary and ended up at her house watching TV for the day. We all felt so bad we confessed the next day. I think that’s the most terrible thing your sweet mom ever did.

[Jude2]

Mormons put temples and Angel Moroni on their tie tacks. How are crosses any different?

I have a problem with the selling of church symbols in general, I’m not sure why I feel this way. I’ve given gifts of tie tacks and necklaces but I’m uncomfortable about it. Putting those doorknobs which say ‘holiness to the Lord’ on my front door seems sort of not right.

[Jude2]

I agree. I believe it is because of the extremely sacred nature of the crucifixion symbolism tied to the Lord's atonement that outward displays of the cross are not ordinarilly a part of LDS life. Are we not told that what happens within the walls of the temple is most sacred, and that the manner of worship that happens there and the symbols employed there are meant to be kept sacred within the heart, the lone exception being when we are actually worshipping within the temple? Wearing crosses as an adornment would be tantamount to wearing the temple garment out in the open for all the world to see, as if it were just an ordinary piece of street clothing.

Nevertheless, I think many members do not comprehend nor appreciated the great sacredness of the symbols of the Lord's crucifixion in our worship, even though that sacredness is so powerfully and unmistakably demonstrated. So what is the reason for this apparent obliviousness? Likely because in seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not...

Ahh, Maybe that's it, maybe that's why I'm uncomfortable.

[Mike Reed]

I have a problem with the selling of church symbols in general, I’m not sure why I feel this way. I’ve given gifts of tie tacks and necklaces but I’m uncomfortable about it. Putting those doorknobs which say ‘holiness to the Lord’ on my front door seems sort of not right.

Small world.

[Scott Lloyd]

I have a problem with the selling of church symbols in general, I’m not sure why I feel this way. I’ve given gifts of tie tacks and necklaces but I’m uncomfortable about it. Putting those doorknobs which say ‘holiness to the Lord’ on my front door seems sort of not right.

ZCMI, when it originated in pioneer days, had the slogan "Holiness to the Lord" with a beehive as its icon. The idea was that all things to the Lord are spiritual, even those we might regard as temporal.

I think it's a fitting sentiment to apply to one's own domicile.

[Scott Lloyd]

We'd have to renegotiate a couple contracts for some of the photos we use... and some of this would cost money.

You could publish it digitally without the photos.

That is often done.

[Mike Reed]

You could publish it digitally without the photos.

That is often done.

yeah... but I have about 50 images in my book, and buyers would likely feel ripped off of I did that. Edited June 10, 2013 by Mike Reed