Teaser From The Maxwell Institute

[volgadon]

Agreed. I love it. It's a phrase I've been using myself for a while.

In The Earth is the Lord's, his paean to the lost world of Eastern European Jewry, R. Abraham Joshua Heschel wrote that, "they did not know how to take anything for granted. Everything had to have a reason, and they were more interested in reasons than in things." These were people for whom, "the plain meaning of words, the straight line of a general rule seemed too shallow. too thin, too narrow to hold the expanding power of their minds." Heschel further states that, "study was a technique of sublimating feeling into thought, of transposing dreams into syllogisms, of expressing grief in formulating keen theoretical difficulties and joy in finding a solution to a difficult passage in Maimonides. Tension of the soul found an outlet in contriving sagacious, almost insoluble riddles. They invented new logical devices in explaining the word of God, thrilled with yearning after the Holy. To figure out an answer to gnawing doubts was to the supreme pleasure."

This is but one reason why I feel that the scriptures made easier, or Isaiah for airheads approach can rob us of so much.

[emarkp]

Salt Press has done some interesting and valuable things. I was on their advisory board until it was dissolved last night.

Indeed, I found them interesting. So much for "independent and open publishing". Sigh.

[Scott Lloyd]

Agreed. I love it. It's a phrase I've been using myself for a while.

If "made easier" conveys the impression of dumbing down the scriptures, I'm not persuaded that making them seem esoteric and inaccessible is much of an improvement.

[Scott Lloyd]

This is but one reason why I feel that the scriptures made easier, or Isaiah for airheads approach can rob us of so much.

I agree. I see "scriptures made harder" as an overreaction.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Indeed, I found them interesting. So much for "independent and open publishing". Sigh.

One does wonder if there is not a lesson to be learned from the institutional absorption and subsequent dismantling of classic FARMS.

[David T]

Here's Dan's Blog Post on the subject.

This is why getting Dan's thoughts on this are frustrating. Remember the long, drawn out discussion here in regards to non-comparison-comparisons to Stalin? The suggestions that such loaded name-droppings and non-comparison comparisons tend to poison the well in a way that clouds the willingness of many to take serious other related legitimate points?

Note now on the blog the giant illustration of how a class of thinking he associates later in the post with Salt Press led to Nazism. Big giant swastika and everything. Of course, he's not comparing the Maxwell Institute to Nazism or Communism, of course. 'Cause he says that he's not later in the post.

I have to hope this is some sort of meta joke.

Edited April 10, 2013 by David T

[cinepro]

I also thought you made a very good point that the millions donated to FARMS will now not be used for what might have been the donors original intended purpose. Given it's BYU and the church they might feel a little uncomfortable about raising that concern.

While that's a possibility, the MI institute could remind donors that though reasonable efforts will be made to use donations as designated, all donations become the MI's property and will be used at the MI's sole discretion to further their overall mission.

I suspect most donors to the MI are probably already practiced at donating money with the risk that it won't be used exactly as they might prefer, and a simple reminder should help put them at ease.

Edited April 10, 2013 by cinepro

[David T]

While that's a possibility, the MI institute could remind donors that though reasonable efforts will be made to use donations as designated, all donations become the MI's property and will be used at the MI's sole discretion to further their overall mission.

I suspect most donors to the MI are probably already practiced at donating money with the risk that it won't be used exactly as they might prefer, and a simple reminder should help put them at ease.

I see what you did there

[Scott Lloyd]

I see what you did there

Nothing gets by you, does it?

[David T]

Nothing gets by you, does it?

Edited April 10, 2013 by David T

[Scott Lloyd]

On the other hand, some things go right over my head.

[David T]

On the other hand, some things go right over my head.

Ha. It,'s Sherlock Holmes from the series... Sherlock. Good stuff. I recommend it!

[alter idem]

*

Edited April 10, 2013 by alter idem

[wenglund]

I have to hope this is some sort of meta joke.

Given what has happened in the past, I suspect that for some people, it will be whatever they need it to be in their perpetual quest to denigrate Dr. Peterson, and this under the guise of supposedly bring a higher level of civility to table, and in spite of what may authoritatively be stated to the contrary..

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

Ha. It,'s Sherlock Holmes from the series... Sherlock. Good stuff. I recommend it!

It is one of my favorite versions of ACD 's work (next to Basil Rathbone and Nigel Bruce), though the new series, Elementary, is starting grow on me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Daniel Peterson]

Here's Dan's Blog Post on the subject. . . .

Note now on the blog the giant illustration of how a class of thinking he associates later in the post with Salt Press led to Nazism. Big giant swastika and everything. Of course, he's not comparing the Maxwell Institute to Nazism or Communism, of course. 'Cause he says that he's not later in the post.

I have to hope this is some sort of meta joke.

No, it's just another case of your misreading. Only, this time, the misreading is even more excruciatingly bad. Good grief.

The Frankfurt school were opposed to the Nazis. It essentially says this in the very illustration to which you're (more or less) responding.

Sigh.

They were, however, very commonly Marxists, though seldom Communists as such. Which is why I went on to say what I said about Marxism.

Many quite reputable European intellectuals have Marxist backgrounds, for better or (in my opinion) mostly worse, or are Marxists of one rarified sort or another. And much of postmodernism and "critical theory" does indeed have Marxist or quasi-Marxist roots. There's simply no disputing this. Moreover, if I'm really suggesting that the Maxwell Institute is becoming Communist by its acquisition of Salt Press, what does that say about a person -- namely, me -- who served on Salt Press's advisory board for several years? I suppose I could be compared to . . . umm, maybe Stalin?

Good grief, DavidT. Give it a rest. Let's just stipulate that my comments, my personality, my sense of humor, and etc., tend to give you heartburn, and then let's have done with it, okay? Do we really have to rinse this and repeat it every few days?

.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Daniel Peterson

[canard78]

While that's a possibility, the MI institute could remind donors that though reasonable efforts will be made to use donations as designated, all donations become the MI's property and will be used at the MI's sole discretion to further their overall mission.

I suspect most donors to the MI are probably already practiced at donating money with the risk that it won't be used exactly as they might prefer, and a simple reminder should help put them at ease.

Possibly a dumb question, but is that paraphrasing the disclaimer from the tithing slip?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Many quite reputable European intellectuals have Marxist backgrounds, for better or (in my opinion) mostly worse, or are Marxists of one rarified sort or another. And much of postmodernism and "critical theory" does indeed have Marxist or quasi-Marxist roots. There's simply no disputing this. Moreover, if I'm really suggesting that the Maxwell Institute is becoming Communist by its acquisition of Salt Press, what does that say about a person -- namely, me -- who served on Salt Press's advisory board for several years? I suppose I could be compared to . . . umm, maybe Stalin?

.

Marxism and Communism: good. Nazism: bad. After all, the BoM teaches about how good Marxism and Communism is.

[David T]

No, it's just another case of your misreading. Only, this time, the misreading is even more excruciatingly bad. Good grief.

The Frankfurt school were opposed to the Nazis. It essentially says this in the very illustration to which you're (more or less) responding.

Sigh.

I admit I didn't get that from the image. I got the impression of the philosophies being presented were then illustrated as presaging and being fulfilled in the rolling steamroller of Nazi-ism. I'll fully admit my familiarity with the details of the history of philosophy in regards to the development of Nazi-ism is poor. Perhaps a Relief Society President in Parowan would have understood it. I did, think, however, I could follow a simplistic chick-tract style illustration. Guess I'm "excruciatingly bad" at that too.

They were, however, very commonly Marxists, though seldom Communists as such. Which is why I went on to say what I said about Marxism. Many quite reputable European intellectuals have Marxist backgrounds, for better or (in my opinion) mostly worse, or are Marxists of one rarified sort or another. And much of postmodernism and "critical theory" does indeed have Marxist or quasi-Marxist roots. There's simply no disputing this.

I still don't understand the benefit or point of noting that what you see as the New Maxwell Institute and Salt Press' way of thinking reminds you of Marxism.

Moreover, if I'm really suggesting that the Maxwell Institute is becoming Communist by its acquisition of Salt Press, what does that say about a person -- namely, me -- who served on Salt Press's advisory board for several years?

Your post pointed out quite emphatically that you didn't actually do anything on that role, and then went on to say such roles are generally formalities anyway.

Good grief, DavidT. Give it a rest. Let's just stipulate that my comments, my personality, my sense of humor, and etc., tend to give you heartburn, and then let's have done with it, okay? Do we really have to rinse this and repeat it every few days?

Dan, believe it or not, I have a great deal of respect for a great amount of the work you have done with FARMS, etc. I think much of what you have to offer can be very beneficial. I think Interpreter is a great project. I don't know if you remember, but In December, my family happened to be vacationing and happened to attend a ward you too were visiting. I recognized you, approached and introduced myself briefly, and said only that I wanted to say, "Good work on Interpreter. I support it."

I do really feel that loaded rhetoric (coming from both sides) serves to decrease the reach of service and effectiveness, and adds to feelings of schism, and "us v. them" that have been very prevalent lately. This is what "gives me heartburn" as you say. I know there's a fan club of crusaders that love it, and even takes it to extremes you probably do not approve of. And maybe that's just what you want to keep going. I don't know.

But fine. You win. I'll "give it a rest". My apologies.

Edited April 11, 2013 by David T

[volgadon]

I admit I didn't get that from the image. I got the impression of the philosophies being presented were then illustrated as presaging and being fulfilled in the rolling steamroller of Nazi-ism. I'll fully admit my familiarity with the details of the history of philosophy in regards to the development of Nazi-ism is poor. Perhaps a Relief Society President in Parowan would have understood it. I did, think, however, I could follow a simplistic chick-tract style illustration. Guess I'm "excruciatingly bad" at that too.

I still don't understand the benefit or point of noting that what you see as the New Maxwell Institute and Salt Press' way of thinking reminds you of Marxism.

David, I only now took a look at the link. It is kind of hard to talk about modern notions of theory without getting into the assumptions of the Frankfurt School, many of whom, BTW, were Jewish. Walter Benjamin (though more of an outlier than anything) took his own life on the Spanish border when fleeing the Nazi invasion of France.

[Daniel Peterson]

I admit I didn't get that from the image. I got the impression of the philosophies being presented were then illustrated as presaging and being fulfilled in the rolling steamroller of Nazi-ism.

Precisely the opposite, not only of the historical facts, but of the message of the graphic.

I still don't understand the benefit or point of noting that what you see as the New Maxwell Institute and Salt Press' way of thinking reminds you of Marxism.

It's not even remotely a matter of my being "reminded" of Marxism. The simple fact -- uncontested by anybody who knows the history of the movement and the biographies of those involved -- is that much of "critical theory" has its roots in a somewhat eccentric take on Marxism. This just isn't controversial. (I already supplied this link in my blog entry, but here it is again.)

Your post pointed out quite emphatically that you didn't actually do anything on that role, and then went on to say such roles are generally formalities anyway.

But the fact that I lent my name in support of an enterprise that I'm supposedly denouncing as pro-Nazi should have suggested that, just maybe, you weren't accurately tracking the point.

Dan, believe it or not, I have a great deal of respect for a great amount of the work you have done with FARMS, etc. I think much of what you have to offer can be very beneficial. I think Interpreter is a great project. I don't know if you remember, but In December, my family happened to be vacationing and happened to attend a ward you too were visiting. I recognized you, approached and introduced myself briefly, and said only that I wanted to say, "Good work on Interpreter. I support it."

Thank you for that.

I do really feel that loaded rhetoric (coming from both sides) serves to decrease the reach of service and effectiveness, and adds to feelings of schism, and "us v. them" that have been very prevalent lately. This is what "gives me heartburn" as you say. I know there's a fan club of crusaders that love it, and even takes it to extremes you probably do not approve of. And maybe that's just what you want to keep going. I don't know.

And my point in response has been that I haven't engaged in "loaded rhetoric" in either of these cases. The Marxist link with much "critical theory" is undisputed and indisputable, and, in any event, I expressly said that I have not the slightest problem with it. And the Soviet Constitution thing was simply an exceedingly clear illustration.

But fine. You win. I'll "give it a rest". My apologies.

Thank you. I'm tired of discussing what an obnoxious and disingenuous jerk I am. I'm happy to acknowledge it, if need be, and then to simply move on. But I would rather not write about it at all.

[Scott Lloyd]

Possibly a dumb question, but is that paraphrasing the disclaimer from the tithing slip?

Of course.

That's why David T posted "I see what you're doing" followed by the winking icon.

Which left me wondering whether that is to signal his disapproval of the disclaimer on the tithing slip or his approval of the repurposing of Maxwell Institute funds. Perhaps it's both.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[David T]

Of course.

That's why David T posted "I see what you're doing" followed by the winking icon.

Which left me wondering whether that is to signal his disapproval of the disclaimer on the tithing slip or his approval of the repurposing of Maxwell Institute funds. Perhaps it's both.

It really was neither. It was just my amused acknowledgement of Cinepro's allusion.

[Mark Beesley]

But I would rather not write about it at all.

Perhaps you might consider the possibility of restraining your need to comment on things the Mi is doing, for better or worse, and simply move on as well? Kinda like how I ignore certain posters . . . :-)

[Daniel Peterson]

People continually ask my opinion about Maxwell Institute matters. Not surprising, since I was a principal figure in it for about a quarter of a century.

And I think it important that what the Maxwell Institute is doing be clearly known. I also see to it that all of their publications and events are announced both on my personal blog and on the Interpreter blog. So don't imagine, please, that I'm at war with them.