The Nature Of Heavenly Father.

[JDave]

Some people are comfortable with calling Heavenly Father "God" but for me it lacks respect;

Reminds me of the Jars of Clay lyric:

Seems too easy to call you 'Savior'

Not close enough to call you 'God'

So I sit and think of words I can mention

To show my devotion

[EllenMaksoud]

Reminds me of the Jars of Clay lyric:

Seems too easy to call you 'Savior'

Not close enough to call you 'God'

So I sit and think of words I can mention

To show my devotion

Thank you .

I'm convicted (not an LDS word) of saying, "when I was EV", so I will just say in my "before time" heretofore. Think hard on the lyrics that you provided; they are lovely. The denominations I attended were fond of saying Goooodddd! Then the music was reminiscent of a rock concert. Then they talked about Jesus Christ like he was their good bud, ya know. I was really embarrassed for Heavenly Father and spoke out. Eventually I was thrown out. I had also sinned, but asked for help, not condemnation permanently.

That abruptly changed when I went to Islam because I heard a man on youtube repeating the 99 names of Heavenly Father (Allah; Subhannu Wa Ta Ala)( Glorified and exalted be he) This was almost always used after the name of Ala (Heavenly Father). He saved me from HELL on earth, and I will always be greatful. If you talk to me much you may get tired of my gushing about how he saved me.

I also like The Fray, "How To Save A Life".

Now, as LDS, I have found love in a special way that does not condemn and shows the path to true repentance and restoration. I was completely destroyed; ready for the final step, but Heavenly Father and they insisted that I had worth, and kept on and kept on. The people I go to church with seem sort of incredulous that I am so grateful.

Edited March 7, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[changed]

the 99 names of Heavenly Father

It is interesting to contemplate why we are given so many different names

this is an interesting vid:

I looked up the meaning of a few of the names on here, and it seemed to match up.

[EllenMaksoud]

It is interesting to contemplate why we are given so many different names

this is an interesting vid:

[media=]

I looked up the meaning of a few of the names on here, and it seemed to match up.

These names make my heart go into Atrial Fib, um sort of. Thank You!

[Tacenda]

It is interesting to contemplate why we are given so many different names

this is an interesting vid:

I looked up the meaning of a few of the names on here, and it seemed to match up.

Because the bible is true.

[changed]

I'm studying Hebrew, and "the Bible Code" stuff can get pretty interesting .

The Alpha and the Omega -

the "Aleph" is the Hebrew letter derived from a picture of an Ox head and represents power/strength/leadership - all powerful.

The Omega comes from the symbol of an eye, and represents all-seeing, all-knowing.

etc. etc. I tend not to be a superstitious person, or into anything that, but there does seem to be quite a lot of hidden stuff within some languages.

[JDave]

Think hard on the lyrics that you provided; they are lovely.

They came to mind partly because I have pondered them. I really enjoy the beautiful imagery in many of their songs. Worlds Apart is just amazing.

Edited March 7, 2013 by JDave

[Paloma]

The church literally loved me when no one else did.

Hi Ellen!

I realize that you've found a wonderful and welcoming home in the LDS Church.

While I expect that you've gained a testimony about the "truth" contained within the Church as well as experiencing love and acceptance, I can't help but think about how important it is to feel loved, as you expressed above.

[EllenMaksoud]

Hi Ellen!

I realize that you've found a wonderful and welcoming home in the LDS Church.

While I expect that you've gained a testimony about the "truth" contained within the Church as well as experiencing love and acceptance, I can't help but think about how important it is to feel loved, as you expressed above.

I'd rather not go into the whole thing, but my whole life, I was barely tolerated, never good enough, always wrong and could never do enough for those who were supposed to love me. The church has changed all that, and now I hear I am loved so much, that sometimes, I wish they would stop. Not really. The loving kindness of church members is the single best proof of the veracity of the Mormon claims about the BoM, Joseph Smith and the host of people who have followed.

[Robert F. Smith]

I will try to look it up. Thank You. I'd be happy to share my Mormon Science Fiction, "Battlefield to Crib" with you, but have no idea how. I think I can not share contact details with you, rules being rules.

I will PM you with the email of a Mormon literary genius who loves sci fi, and who will tell you truly whether it has potential for publication --well maybe he will.

[EllenMaksoud]

I will PM you with the email of a Mormon literary genius who loves sci fi, and who will tell you truly whether it has potential for publication --well maybe he will.

Well, thank you. I would appreciate that. I live in terror of editors as they torment me.

[Stargazer]

As to the 99 names of God, this reminds me of a science-fiction short story written by Arthur C. Clarke, "The Nine Billion Names of God". It won the Hugo Award for Best Short Story in 1954. Here is a summary of the plot, which I found in Wikipedia.

This short story tells of a Tibetan lamasery whose monks seek to list all of the Names of God, since they believe the Universe was created in order to note all the names of God and once this naming is completed, God will bring the Universe to an end. Three centuries ago, the monks created an alphabet in which they calculated they could encode all the possible names of God, numbering about 9,000,000,000 ("nine billion") and each having no more than nine characters. Writing the names out by hand, as they had been doing, even after eliminating various nonsense combinations, would take another 15,000 years; the monks wish to use modern technology in order to finish this task more quickly.

They rent a computer capable of printing all the possible permutations, and they hire two Westerners to install and program the machine. The computer operators are skeptical but play along. After three months, as the job nears completion, they fear that the monks will blame the computer, and by extension its operators, when nothing happens. The Westerners delay the operation of the computer so that it will complete its final print run just after their scheduled departure. After their successful departure on ponies, they pause on the mountain path on their way back to the airfield, where a plane is waiting to take them back to civilization. Under a clear night sky they estimate that it must be just about the time that the monks are pasting the final printed names into their holy books. Then they notice that "overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out."

[Stargazer]

I will PM you with the email of a Mormon literary genius who loves sci fi, and who will tell you truly whether it has potential for publication --well maybe he will.

He wouldn't be Benjamin Urrutia would he?

Edited March 10, 2013 by Stargazer

[Garden Girl]

How can he be everwhere at all times if he is stuck in a human body. I think he can dwell in all our bodies and in his own human body if he wanted to. Because as the Bible and BoM say, he is spirit.

Hi Tacenda...

Keep in mind the scriptures telling of Christ's visits to his apostles after... after... his resurection. They were all sitting there in a closed room and suddenly the Savior was standing among them... He invited them to come and feel the wounds in his hands and his feet... even inviting Peter? to thrust his hand into His side where the Roman soldier had stabbed him with his spear... A perfect, exalted body is not... not... a human body obviously as there were several times recorded in scripture where Christ appeared within closed rooms... and then don't forget after all that his ascension... not a human body, nor filled with blood...

GG

[Tacenda]

Hi Tacenda...

Keep in mind the scriptures telling of Christ's visits to his apostles after... after... his resurection. They were all sitting there in a closed room and suddenly the Savior was standing among them... He invited them to come and feel the wounds in his hands and his feet... even inviting Peter? to thrust his hand into His side where the Roman soldier had stabbed him with his spear... A perfect, exalted body is not... not... a human body obviously as there were several times recorded in scripture where Christ appeared within closed rooms... and then don't forget after all that his ascension... not a human body, nor filled with blood...

GG

I totally agree.

[Robert F. Smith]

He wouldn't be Benjamin Urrutia would he?

None other.

[Robert F. Smith]

As to the 99 names of God, this reminds me of a science-fiction short story written by Arthur C. Clarke, "The Nine Billion Names of God". It won the Hugo Award for Best Short Story in 1954. Here is a summary of the plot, which I found in Wikipedia.

One of my all time favorite stories. I read it as a teenager back in the 50s.

I thought of it also not long ago in connection with the expanded, massive, computerized effort of the Church to do temple work for all of humanity that has ever been or will be. Does completion of that project bring us to the end of time?!

[Questing Beast]

If we want to find out the "nature of God" we should be about studying the "world" where we are at this very moment. That is how to discover the nature of "Heavenly Father" too, since we are told (and have no reason/evidence to disbelieve) that nothing that was made was made by any other agency than "the Word", i.e. God as the Son of the Father as Creator of everything, the world and everything that makes it up. That includes all of us. So if we want to discover "the nature of God" we need to learn as much as we can about each other first, and the physical world we inhabit second. There is never any exception to this. We are what we are right now, where we are right now. Anticipating greater learning in "the afterlife" is pointless, imho, because we are not in any sort of "afterlife" right now. To angst over how inadequate this world is, evil even, is also pointless, because the world "is what it is", and we are in it and part of it. For the duration of "NOW", we ought therefore to be learning all that there is to learn about the here and now. Live fully in the moment, focused on how it is part of Existence, Infinite Existence, always trying to understand more about the whole of Existence. Since Existence Is God, everything manifesting in the "world" is "God" manifesting, ergo the "nature of God" is found in everything in part, and leads directly to the Cause of that thing existing in the first place....

[wenglund]

This is one questions I have....why is having a body seen as a limit?

Within LDS theology it's not having a body that is seen as limiting...

So I guess...my question...what is it about Heavenly Father's exalted, perfect body that is more powerful than the God without?

To me, the difference may be manifest, in part, by contrasting the premortal Son with the resurrected Son. Hebrews 2, particularly verse 18, may provide some insights.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[pianoart65]

I was converted to the mormon faith, and eventually baptized approximately 12 yrs ago (age 58) in the Keene NH ward. Although I still find myself reading the Ensign etc... I stopped attending services based solely on one doctrine, that Heavenly Father was once a man like us... Whether or not He has a physical body is not really an issue. Would love to get past my hang up about Heavenly Father being once a man, and that those of us who inherit a certain degree in heaven, will also someday become a god...

[Ahab]

I was converted to the mormon faith, and eventually baptized approximately 12 yrs ago (age 58) in the Keene NH ward. Although I still find myself reading the Ensign etc... I stopped attending services based solely on one doctrine, that Heavenly Father was once a man like us... Whether or not He has a physical body is not really an issue. Would love to get past my hang up about Heavenly Father being once a man, and that those of us who inherit a certain degree in heaven, will also someday become a god...

1) "God" is a word/name/title we use to refer to our kind of being, as well as a reference to our Father in heaven.

2) God (our Father in heaven) is still is a man, in the sense of being a male of our species.

3) It's not so much that we'll become a "god", as if we arne't already the same kind of being as our Father, but that we'll (or we may, potentially) become like our Father in heaven. We're already his children so it's not as if it's beyond what is possible for our kind of being.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Ahab

[Questing Beast]

I was converted to the mormon faith, and eventually baptized approximately 12 yrs ago (age 58) in the Keene NH ward. Although I still find myself reading the Ensign etc... I stopped attending services based solely on one doctrine, that Heavenly Father was once a man like us... Whether or not He has a physical body is not really an issue. Would love to get past my hang up about Heavenly Father being once a man, and that those of us who inherit a certain degree in heaven, will also someday become a god...

Perhaps you can look at God the Father as "God In Total" (i.e. Existence In The First Place) manifesting for our benefit as one of us. The whole biological mandate of "family" could be seen as descending from "God's family", or as it manifests as human. The doctrine doesn't have to go any further than that. Joseph Smith said some things that were mutually exclusive, and one of them was that GtF had a father, yet we are not supposed to concern ourselves with any other gods but our Father. BY even said that GtF is "the only God with which we have to do", words to that effect; admitting that GtF is not the only "god", but the only God for us. Such a question ignores the Cause that is Existence Itself. I worship that Cause, not GtF as given to us by Joseph Smith....

[Stargazer]

I was converted to the mormon faith, and eventually baptized approximately 12 yrs ago (age 58) in the Keene NH ward. Although I still find myself reading the Ensign etc... I stopped attending services based solely on one doctrine, that Heavenly Father was once a man like us... Whether or not He has a physical body is not really an issue. Would love to get past my hang up about Heavenly Father being once a man, and that those of us who inherit a certain degree in heaven, will also someday become a god...

Well, to be hung up on that is similar to be hung up on the notion that we ourselves are possible gods, and there are some folks I am sure who can't swallow that one. Nevertheless, the scripture testify of this, and not just Latter-day scriptures.

We read in Romans 8:16,17:

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

If we are joint-heirs with Christ, then we must inherit what Christ inherits, and Christ is God. Where then is the trick in this, that we can inherit but our Father can not have inherited?

A very good friend of mine, whom I have been trying to entice to participate on this board, wrote me the following, regarding the posting of some of those who have posted here:

...some I find not studying out in their hearts but trying solve gospel questions out in their head. The head and the heart need to work together to understand gospel truths. Truth always comes at a price, but falsehoods usually come at no cost. We have to live worthy of the Holy Ghost and then ask for knowledge which almost always comes through the heart and then the mind.

The thing I shake my head over is this notion of "I believe everything, up until this one thing", and that is the deal-breaker. If the rest of everything is true, then how could that one thing not be true as well? Just because we are uncomfortable with it, or it is just one step too far? Jesus discovered this kind of thinking among his disciples, when, as it is recorded in John 6 he found that many of his disciples seemed to be following him because he had fed them in the wilderness. I suggest you read the entire chapter to get an idea of what was going on, but to cut to the chase, Jesus told them that he was the bread that came down from heaven (referring to the Manna). They stumbled upon this:

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

Jesus then gave them further reason to murmur, saying "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." And they responded:

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

...and they walked away, unable to bear the meat.

66 ¶From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

I would like to gently suggest to you that perhaps if you had applied to the Father for further light and knowledge you might have been confirmed in your faith rather than repelled. The thing to realize is that this Dispensation of the Fullness of times is a time when God said He would restore many teachings which before had been lost. When we find some who get upset that God reveals something that they never heard of, we have found some who do not really believe that God can reveal truth to His prophets. These are they who with 2 Nephi 29:3 cry:

3 ... A aBible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.

And those who reject the mysteries of God, will eventually lose everything, because they cannot abide all the God wants to give them.

[Stone holm]

Some people are comfortable with calling Heavenly Father "God" but for me it lacks respect; I suppose a carry over from the days when everyone said "Allah Subhanna Wa Ta allah". I just want to see how close my theory matches with LDS theology.

So, my roomate, an agnostic, and I were talking tonight about the true nature of Heavenly Father, and we found out that we agree on some points. Now it occurs to me that I could be in trouble.

Going back to the "Big Bang", we both agree that violating the second law of thermodynamics meant something had to be going on. Something "Un-natural", a controlling intelligence that formed about 14 billion years ago. Of course, there is the distinct posibility that this intelligence caused the Big Bang, so NO we don't actually know the age of the universe, but for the sake of discussion.

I have a set of pictures on my computer that I would put here, but I don't know if I would break the rules, and I don't know how. So, of the two pictures, one is of a thin slice of human brain tissue viewed through an electron microscope. It has a red cast to it. It is clear in the photo that there is a network of ganglions attached to neurons. To me, the logic is like an integrated circuit with 7 junction transistors, lots of them.

So, the amazing part is that the other picture was taken with the Hubble Telescope, in the ex-ray wave length and is wide angle. It is said to show the dark matter of the universe. Amazingly to me, this picture and the brain picture look very much alike.

That leads me to wonder if the universe is a thinking, reasoning organisim, and if this is a part of "the mind of Heavenly Father"? I wrote a Science Fiction story using this premise, and would love to share it but have no idea how.

So, then we started talking about Gaia. My understanding is that is the name of the life that lives in the earth according to some belief systems.

So, my thinking is that Heavenly Father can not only be flesh and bone as in the BoM, but an extension of his consiousness can also be the whole universe. My opinion is that this holds up fine with LDS theology, but I am very open to being corrected.

Sorry Ellen, I haven't quite figured out how you just select part of a quote to respond to. I intended only to respond to the reference to Gaia. Gaia is also a scientific postulate of sorts which was formed by two scientists as they were trying to determine indicators of whether a planet could support life as we know it without actually having to visit the planet. The names escape me, I am getting a bit old for this, but I believe one was named Lynn Margulis. In any event, they came up with the Gaia theory which basically postulated that Gaia (meaning the Earth) was in fact a living organism or system -- in the early formulations there was an intimation that she might even be sentient although I believe they backed away from that. This is consistent with Mormon doctrine and in fact there are references which support that idea, however, we do not worship Gaia, nor do we believe that she is a part of God any more than we are a part of God. It does appear, however, that we are eternally connected to Gaia -- at least if we become celestialized, and various GA over the years have said that no Angelic messengers have come to the Earth except those that will be or have been born here, and that if we become Celestial this is where we will stay. I do not know if there is doctrine as to whether humans on other planets who become Celestial will come here or not -- I think not, but that is just me, I don't recall having read anyone in authority directly answering that.

I have heard some environmentalists question whether or not we are parasites to Gaia, and we have, or rather our progenitor, was transported here from elsewhere as were probably some of the building blocks to life here. But I suspect that Gaia probably is a system created by the gods when the Earth was prepared to become what it became. [i am not inviting a discussion of evolution here -- am stating some of this in overly simplistic terms.]

[Calm]

Sorry Ellen, I haven't quite figured out how you just select part of a quote to respond to.

When you reply, you need to go into the quote itself and edit it.