Surviving Without A Temple Recommend

[sheilauk]

You see, If a person sins, no matter how deep the sin, and one day the person realized what they have done, and they repent, suffer sorrow and repent what they can, then they have the benefit of the Atonement. You see, it all hinges on the Atonement. Without if religion is a very nasty and unfunny joke. If the sacrifice of Jesus Christ has value, and he said even of the murderer that he would this day be in Paradise with him, then the Atonement must reply to any who are repentant.

From my first contact with the church, they insisted that nothing anyone has done is unforgivable with repentance. I had my doubts about it and challenged them on it. So, for me if this woman can not get the full atonement, then it is all worthless. If it is worthless for her, then the same follows for me, and though you may think otherwise, the atonement has no value for you or anyone else.

I can not understand by what authority men can withhold the full benefit of the FULL Atonement from anyone. Those who do risk hell fire.

As a convert, I was expected to wait at least a year, I then had to take Temple Preparation Classes and then be interviewed by the Bishop and Stake President. I had to make the appointments to be seen by them, and it meant coordinating with their movements. It was not guaranteed that they would give me a temple recommend. They did, however and I then made the date for my first Temple Endowment session. I went through the temple after 18 months in the Church and a six month process. I don't know if that was fast or slow, but it was a process and others after me have done the same, some have taken longer. Sometimes a lot of patience is required by the Church.

Having a temple recommend is not a sure thing or a matter of course. To obtain a temple recommend one has to have an interview with a member of the Bishopric and a member of the Stake presidency and be able to answer a series of questions satisfactorily to show that you are a worthy member or member in good standing. A number of things may therefore mean its refused, for example not being a full tithe payer. It may not necessarily be because of a 'sin'.

As to the above, except for denying the Holy Ghost and possibly murder, nothing is unforgivable, if there is genuine repentence, but there are also consequences for breaking commandments, which can be temporal and/or spiritual. One consequence can be the temporary witholding of Church privileges such as taking the Sacrament or attending the Temple. The Bishop will counsel with the individual and decide. the Bishop has the authority because it is given to him, when he is called, to be a Judge in Israel. Once one has exercised repentence, and done what is necessary/required (eg paid a full tithe) one can regain earthly privileges. Even those excommunicated can be rebaptised if they wish. Why your friend does not have a recommend is not for us to speculate, but I'm sure that the Bishop has explained why to her and will have said what she needs to do to obtain her recommend. Its very unlikely she will never be able to go to the Temple again if she wants to. But this judgement is not the same as the exercise of the Atonement. The Atonement is God's willingness to forgive us, those on Earth cannot withhold it. He will judge us on our actions and thoughts and on the opportunities we had. Why do you conflate the withdrawing of a temple recommend with the withholding of the benefits of the Atonement?

Edited February 19, 2013 by sheilauk

[Stargazer]

You make a mistake. What happened to me was by innocence. Some day you may realize that I do not need the Church, it needs me.

Actually, I believe you were assuming I knew something that I didn't, which is whatever happened to you. Until your PM, I was completely ignorant of it And as to the last sentence, the Church needs all of us.

My post to which you responded here dealt only with a particular church policy; I was simply trying to make clear what that was, for any who might have mistaken notions.

[rpn]

People may also be denied a TR because they do not yet have a testimony of God, or the restoration or cannot live tithing --- it may not be a sin issue. (And the prohibition of a TR if one doesn't have a testimony of tithing is protective --- if you can't live that law, you can't live the new laws you will commit yourself to in the temple. God doesn't want to set you up for failure.)

There is a story in Believing Christ about a biker lady who joined the church and didn't qualify for a recommend until 10 years later. The question was asked at what point did she qualify for the Celestial Kingdom. The answer was the day of her baptism, as she did her personal best and quickly repented during all that time, and THAT alone is what is required to access the power of the atonement and be perfect in Christ.

[Stargazer]

You see, If a person sins, no matter how deep the sin, and one day the person realized what they have done, and they repent, suffer sorrow and repent what they can, then they have the benefit of the Atonement. You see, it all hinges on the Atonement. Without if religion is a very nasty and unfunny joke. If the sacrifice of Jesus Christ has value, and he said even of the murderer that he would this day be in Paradise with him, then the Atonement must reply to any who are repentant.

From my first contact with the church, they insisted that nothing anyone has done is unforgivable with repentance. I had my doubts about it and challenged them on it. So, for me if this woman can not get the full atonement, then it is all worthless. If it is worthless for her, then the same follows for me, and though you may think otherwise, the atonement has no value for you or anyone else.

I can not understand by what authority men can withhold the full benefit of the FULL Atonement from anyone. Those who do risk hell fire.

OK, I think I understand now what the problem is here.

You write that "I had my doubts about it and challenged them on it. So, for me if this woman can not get the full atonement, then it is all worthless. If it is worthless for her, then the same follows for me, and though you may think otherwise, the atonement has no value for you or anyone else."

You are right, there is virtually nothing unforgivable. But you are confusing two different things here. Atonement is not Endowment. Endowment is not atonement.

The Atonement is forgiveness of sins through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The Endowment is an ordinance which confers in potentiality further blessings, which are related to Exaltation. Not all who receive the Atonement will receive Exaltation. Not all who receive the ordinance of the Endowment in this life or the next will actually be Exalted.

Over the course of the last few thousand years, there have been billions of Father's chiidren who have lived and died without benefit of receiving their Endowment in a Temple of the Lord, or, for that matter, having received the ordinance of baptism. But for those of them who repent and accept the Gospel in the Spirit World, nothing shall be withheld from them. I myself have gone through the Temple for a few hundred of such folks (including some of my own ancestors) over the course of the last forty or so years. There are also a goodly number of Latter-day Saints who, by virtue of their countries of residence and the lack of temples in those countries, were likewise unable to receive their Endowments in this life.

On my mission, in one of the cities in which I served, Wuppertal, Germany, there was a very faithful sister who when she was baptized was in such bad health that even that ordinance was almost impossible for her -- they had to have an ambulance take her to the Stake Center where she could be baptized. There was no way that her health permitted her to travel to the nearest temple in Switzerland to attend to her endowment there. She managed to survive in considerable distress into her 90's, hardly ever even able to attend normal church meetings. She passed away a few years after I returned home, but I never forgot her and her indomitable spirit. She understood that after her life was over she would receive all those blessings she had been unable to receive in this life, and she was content with that.

The important thing to realize is simply this: what we lack in this life will be made up for in the life to come. Those things we desire in righteousness, which are indeed righteous, will find perfect fulfillment in us in the end. Our Father in Heaven knows perfectly well that our lives, even for those of us who appear to have everything, are woefully imperfect. But no matter what the limitations were, no matter how much we have been limited by circumstances beyond our control (and even, through repentence, within our control), He will restore to us what we lacked. And more.

I wrote earlier that the policy of the church for those who join the church who had had a sex change operation (and I am talking about a voluntary reassignment from their birth gender, not correction due to congenital defects) may not receive their endowment in this life. In this rather limited circumstance, there are practical considerations at work here. An actual man (XY) who has been reassigned surgically to look like a woman is still, in the eyes of the Lord, a man. Regardless of appearance. Same for the vice-versa. Because of the problem inherent in the gender-specific ordinances in the temple, not to mention the dressing room, it is not possible to carry out the requisite ordinances. This is why there must be a delay, and it is only a delay.

Whether your friend is in that circumstance or not is not known by me (nor do I wish to know), the fact still remains that the Atonement is operative in her case, and forgiveness for all her sins, whatever they are, will not be withheld.

I hope this helps, because you do seem to be in some distress over this. And while your distress may be well-intentioned, I believe that it is based on incorrect information.

And I tend to ramble on and sometimes I fear I may over-explain and thus confuse things even more than they were when I started. A great failing, I am afraid.

[EllenMaksoud]

Actually, I believe you were assuming I knew something that I didn't, which is whatever happened to you. Until your PM, I was completely ignorant of it And as to the last sentence, the Church needs all of us.

My post to which you responded here dealt only with a particular church policy; I was simply trying to make clear what that was, for any who might have mistaken notions.

I am sorry I got emotional with you. Please forgive me. Her situation and mine are completely different.

[telnetd]

I know someone who has been told she will not get a temple recommend. I thought it was a matter of course. I don't know what will happen to her now, She seems broken hearted.

Don't worry about it. The early disciples did not have temple recommends

either.

Gail

[volgadon]

Don't worry about it. The early disciples did not have temple recommends

either.

Gail

Don't worry, the psalmists did.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I know someone who has been told she will not get a temple recommend. I thought it was a matter of course. I don't know what will happen to her now, She seems broken hearted.

Temple recommend's are not a "matter of course". I was in a Testimony Meeting today where many were scolded for not going for Stake Temple day..."you go to work"! "You make time for birthday parties and family reunions". This was the guys testimony which turned into a sermon. One guy showed up for Church in his police uniform, which means he had to work yesterday. Most police offices have you work every few weekends to give others a life. Edited February 25, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[EllenMaksoud]

Temple recommend's are not a "matter of course". I was in a Testimony Meeting today where many were scolded for not going for Stake Temple day..."you go to work"! "You make time for birthday parties and family reunions". This was the guys testimony which turned into a sermon. One guy showed up for Church in his police uniform, which means he had to work yesterday. Most police offices have you work every few weekends to give others to have a life.

I won't ever have the problem.

[Tacenda]

I won't ever have the problem.

deleted Edited February 25, 2013 by Tacenda

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I won't ever have the problem.

Which problem are we speaking of?