Where Does Apologetics Fall Short?????

[DBMormon]

On various discussion boards I have asked what are the main issues that are a barrier to your regaining faith in the LDS church. These would seemingly be issues where doubting members feel apologetics fails to provide a thorough answer. These boards do not allow a back and forth addressing of the issues so I thought I would bring that here.

I will list the issues and what I am hoping for is for those who see apologetics as not having a good answer I would love to know specifically why you see these issues as being a problem with the current answers we have. While deeply familiar with the issues and knowing on a surface level why they are a problem, I struggle to see why in most cases the faithful perspective doesn't fit for many.

the issues named ( I have not named them and so I am limited in being able to say what is meant in each case, which is why I am hoping those here who see these things in the same light may help

1. Attempts to deny evolution by Bruce R. McConkie, Joseph Fielding Smith, etc.

2. Official claim that Adam was literally the first man

3. No death before the fall idea in the BoM (2 Nephi 2:22-23)

4. LDS scriptures appear to support literal global flood interpretation (Moses 8, Ether 13:2).

5. LDS scriptures appear to support literal tower of Babel story (Ether 1:33)

6. LDS scriptures appear to support 6 thousand year old earth (D&C 77:6-7,10)

7. Institute manual defends alleged genocide by Moses

8. Racial priesthood ban + prophets will never lead the Church astray

9. Polygamy + prophets will never lead the Church astray

10. Book of Abraham translation discrepancies

11. Joseph Smith's comments about Moon Quakers

12. Joseph Smith married women still married to other men

13. Joseph Smith was convicted of "money digging"

14. Zelph

15. The Kirtland bank failure

16. The Kinderhook plates

17. The Greek Psalter incident

18. Nancy Rigdon

19. Fanny Alger

20. Account of Joseph Smith bragging about being a "profitable prophet" better than Mohammed

21. John C. Bennett was Assistant President of the Church

22. Joseph Smith and other Church leaders drank wine the night he was killed

23. Brigham Young: "Adam is God"

24. Brigham Young: "Death on the spot"

25. Blood atonement

26. The Mountain Meadows Massacre and aftermath

24. Similarity between temple ordinances and Masonic rites

25. Brigham Young used chewing tobacco

26. Joseph Fielding Smith's claim that men would never go to the Moon

27. Claim that sexual sins are next to murder

28. Spencer W. Kimball's claim that masturbation leads to homosexuality

29. Church leaders duped by Mark Hoffman regarding the Salamander Letter

30. Gordon B. Hinckley interviews make revelation sound the same as average members praying

31. Gordon B. Hinckley: "don't worry about those little flecks of history"

32. Fourteen fundamentals reiterated by 2 different speakers in recent conference

33. Cult-like warning sign: Extremely zealous and unquestioning commitment to leaders

34. Cult-like warning sign: Strong emphasis on us-versus-them mentality and special status of the group

35. Cult-like warning sign: Strong use of peer pressure, guilt, and shame to control behavior

36. Church's direct involvement in Prop. 8

37. Tithing amount is excessive and doesn't add up fairly in different situations

38. Magical thinking about supposed connection between strict obedience and guaranteed blessings

39. It looks like Native Americans principal ancestors came to America from Asia through the Bering Strait 12,000 years ago rather than from Jerusalem about 600 BC

40. Steel, horses, massive battles and civilizations, etc. in BoM don't match archaeological evidence you would expect to see in this case very well.

41. The current WoW interpretation looks like the revelation that never really happened

42. Using feelings as a source of truth/knowledge.

43. too much "humanness" and not enough unquestionable divine guidance.

44 church leaders conflicting statements and policies on SSA/gay marriage

45. Political coercion of members

46. Sexism/ Unhealthy attitude towards sexuality

46. statements on polygamy now and into eternity

47. Shopping malls, financial speculation

48. The only true and living church.

49. Financial transparency.

50. Focus on compliance to laundry list of commandments rather than talk of Christ and development of Christian attributes

51. Suppression and stigmatization of intellectuals in the 80's and 90's

52. Church leaders need never/rarely publically confess or repent of offensive comments or teachings

53. The church being led by revelation yet always being reactive to issues

54. Cultural norms that are treated as doctrine. ex: in countries where drums solely are used for religious practice God says all members everywhere must use the piano or organ for music. An attempt to make the church everywhere fit the American version

55. Reformed Egyptian

As I look over the list I get why these are troubling. A few bother me. But I feel like there are good answers to most. For example : Kinderhook plates. After listening to Don Bradley's presentation, I think it could be argued the Kinderhook plates as evidence of the restoration, not against it.

Why do apologetics fail with these issues?

Don't attack the whole list... just pick one or one of your own and describe why apologetics fails to provide a reasonable explanation where one must perform mental gymnastics to make the apologetic answer work?

[thesometimesaint]

I seriously doubt anyone has been converted by apologetics.

[Ahab]

Apologetics has to do with providing reasons for beliefs, but they don't provide much if any gauge on whether or not those reasons are good, or true. Things can make sense, reasonably, and still not be true. That's why we need to know who to listen to, and why I trust in God for the answers I need.

[The Nehor]

56. If we are the chosen people why is our taste so bad that we actually eat jello with vegetables in it?

I have worked out the rest of yours but this one still baffles me.

Edited February 11, 2013 by The Nehor

[3DOP]

I don't think the apologetics fail. I am not familiar with all of the issues, but I would be surprised if any of them could prove the church to be false.

Wait. #56 IS deeply disturbing.

[cdowis]

It appears that you are unfamiliar with what's been going on in apologetics. Let me guess, you got this list from some antimormon rag.

Apologists, including myself, have participated and dealing with a large number/ the majority of the issues that you have listed, and I don't remember your participation in those discussions. You will note that very few of them are still brought up here for discussion. You can conclude for yourself why the antis have dropped these issues, except to throw out to the uninformed.

Some of your "points" are silly., which again makes me wonder about your source.

Edited February 11, 2013 by cdowis

[Ahab]

56. If we are the chosen people why is our taste so bad that we actually eat jello with vegetables in it?

I have worked out the rest of yours but this one still baffles me.

Because it tastes good, at least to some people.

Orange jello with shredded carrots = Yummo Yummy.

It does sound weird to eat something made out of calves hoofs, or something similar, but it still actually tastes good to some people.

[RobertAC]

Apologetics of any religion fall short. They are a starting point for understanding belief. They are not the final destination.

[The Nehor]

Because it tastes good, at least to some people.

Orange jello with shredded carrots = Yummo Yummy.

To quote the hymn: "The thought makes reason stare."

[Bob Crockett]

I wonder what you're going to get with a laundry list of your objections to the Church. Many of your objections are impossibly vague and subjective.

FAIR's Wiki addresses your more specific complaints; why don't you tell us what you find objectionable about FAIR's answers to your questions?

[cdowis]

FAIR's Wiki addresses your more specific complaints; why don't you tell us what you find objectionable about FAIR's answers to your questions?

Good point. FAIR has created an organized response for these issues.

[3DOP]

I wonder what you're going to get with a laundry list of your objections to the Church. Many of your objections are impossibly vague and subjective.

FAIR's Wiki addresses your more specific complaints; why don't you tell us what you find objectionable about FAIR's answers to your questions?

He did say, "I feel like there are good answers to most." I don't think he was proposing that there are no answers. Perhaps, like me, also a non-LDS, he is perplexed about why your apologetics in these areas work for us, while it appears so many Mormons themselves don't accept the plausibility of solutions and lose faith.

Edited February 11, 2013 by 3DOP

[thesometimesaint]

He did say, "I feel like there are good answers to most." I don't think he was proposing that there are no answers. Perhaps, like me, also a non-LDS, he is perplexed about why your apologetics in these areas work for us, while it appears so many Mormons themselves don't accept the plausibility of solutions and lose faith.

I can't answer for why any ONE individual decides that they no longer can believe. But ultimately we alone are responsible for what we believe.

[DBMormon]

I am not proposing this should be issues for anyone. Rather then read the original post many of you have shot back accusing me of something other then the thread intended.

I have asked ....... duh,..... duh.... duh ....... For those who doubt why do the naswers to these issues not work. Why are these issues bothersome when it seems to me there are good answers for them.

Instead believers chimed in accusing me of throwing these out there to do the opposite of the threads intention...... try again

[Ahab]

I am not proposing this should be issues for anyone. Rather then read the original post many of you have shot back accusing me of something other then the thread intended.

I have asked ....... duh,..... duh.... duh ....... For those who doubt why do the naswers to these issues not work. Why are these issues bothersome when it seems to me there are good answers for them.

Instead believers chimed in accusing me of throwing these out there to do the opposite of the threads intention...... try again

Alright, now you owe me double rep points because you didn't even acknowledge what I said in post 3. Give me on there, and another one here. And please pay more attention when I give you the correct anwwer in the future.

[volgadon]

TSS said it best, I think. The problem isn't with the monolith apologetics, it is with individual arguments and individual responses to those arguments.

Edited February 11, 2013 by volgadon

[Teancum]

I am not clear what DBMormon wants. Do you want to know which items still bug someone like me personally and why the apologist response to said items does not satisfy me?

[Bob Crockett]

He did say, "I feel like there are good answers to most." I don't think he was proposing that there are no answers. Perhaps, like me, also a non-LDS, he is perplexed about why your apologetics in these areas work for us, while it appears so many Mormons themselves don't accept the plausibility of solutions and lose faith.

DB's post is a stalking horse.

Once in my law practice, when one of my clients' offices were shot at by animal rights activities, I took the deposition of a suspect. He said, "well, I'd never do these things, but I know people who would (1) firebomb your offices, (2) shoot at your cars and homes," and so forth and so on. He said this, while I knew he had been convicted years before for firebombing a UCLA office.

I might suggest that DB simply be a little more helpful and tell us which on the list are troubling to him (not troubling in a generic sense) and there are plenty here who can respond.

[robuchan]

Most of these I don't think are that big of a deal. The ones that are, at least to me:

Old Testament type issues: 4/5

B of A: 10

BOM translation sketchiness: 13

BOM content problems: 39/40

[saemo]

The big ones for me on this list are

8. Racial priesthood ban + prophets will never lead the Church astray

9. Polygamy + prophets will never lead the Church astray

Though not because of "prophets will never lead the Church astray".

Never heard of:

17. The Greek Psalter incident

32. Fourteen fundamentals reiterated by 2 different speakers in recent conference

[Kiviuq]

For me, some apologetic tactics fall short because the supposed answers go counter to my many years of actual experience. This is related to another common complaint, that the answers do not represent any official Church position. Perhaps any one problem on the list can be explained away, but taken in aggregate, the whole problem is bigger than the sum of the parts.

Here are some examples from FAIR:

• “While Joseph’s opinions might be interesting, they can be discarded when they conflict with revealed doctrine, scientific facts, or in-depth examination.”
  
• In reference to the First Vision: “Just because this early account mentions only one personage, we should not assume that there was only one personage.”
  
• “…the assumption that every teaching in the Book of Mormon should be perfectly clear is misguided.”
  

Many people simply do not buy-in to this type of “logic.”

[3DOP]

The big ones for me on this list are

8. Racial priesthood ban + prophets will never lead the Church astray

9. Polygamy + prophets will never lead the Church astray

Though not because of "prophets will never lead the Church astray".

Never heard of:

17. The Greek Psalter incident

32. Fourteen fundamentals reiterated by 2 different speakers in recent conference

To "lead the church astray" would probably mean "into apostasy". They tell me all the time they don't believe in infallibility. That has to mean then that "never lead astray" still allows for mistakes that are not fatal to the church's authority.

But wait, before falling back on that, I would argue that the burden of proof is on the person who charges that polygamy or the priesthood ban was an error. They practiced polygamy in the Old Testament. The priesthood ban should not be interpreted as racial bigotry. What is the church's record on slavery and other ethnic issues during its history? For prudential reasons that may some day be revealed, it pleased God to restrict the priesthood for a very short period at the beginning of the Restoration. The Old Testament priesthood was restrictive to one family. The priesthood isn't a right that comes from being a grown up. It is a privilege that God grants to some and it can appear arbitrary. Surely there were people from other tribes well qualified for the "job."

Edited February 11, 2013 by 3DOP

[thesometimesaint]

I sure hope I'm not accountable for every random thought or idea that any leaders of our Church have had over the last 183 years or so.

[CV75]

Why do apologetics fail with these issues?

I don’t think they fall short in and of themselves (except perhaps in apologetic quality). I think when people use the wrong tool for the wrong job, the tool is destined to fall short or fail. I’m certain that LDS apologists will be the first to encourage people not to try to use apologetics as a substitute for the Spirit.

[Ahab]

To "lead the church astray" would probably mean "into apostasy". They tell me all the time they don't believe in infallibility. That has to mean then that "never lead astray" still allows for mistakes that are not fatal to the church's authority.

It actually gets easier than that, if the statement is correct in saying "prophets will never lead the church astray."

If it is true that the Church is God's Church, and the prophets are prophets of God, then it only makes sense that a prophet (of God) will never lead his Church astray. He's a prophet, for Pete's sake. Prophets don't lead people astray from God, period.

Edited February 11, 2013 by Ahab