John Dehlin Responds By Podcast

[mormonstories]

Most of the work that FAIR does takes place in private between individuals. People who write to Ask the Apologist receive personal, one-on-one answers. In five years, I have never seen a member of FAIR respond to such a questioner with anything but Christ-like empathy. Many of us at FAIR have been in the situation of those who are asking us questions. Some of us ended up at FAIR because we asked FAIR questions. I am one of those.

Even those few who write to us who are obvious trolls, we are still required to treat them as genuine questioners.

The rest of the work that FAIR does is to take the answers that are provided through AtA and format them for inclusion in the FAIR Wiki. That is the visible component of FAIR at this time. As I said previously, we have made efforts to remove what we call "snark" from those articles.

So I'm afraid that I find your characterization of FAIR as not understanding what it means to be Christlike to be patronizing and false. You call us hypocrites? You don't have visibility into most of what FAIR does, so how can you stand in judgement of us in this manner?

WW

I don't mean to judge the entire enterprise. I should probably communicate more carefully. And I know that FAIR does a ton of good -- and I tried to say as much in my recent screencast.

I'm clearly angry/hurt at the tactics of Daniel and Lou, and have a hard time separating them and their tactics from FAIR. For me they are tied together very tightly. I'm not sure why that is.

What is the relationship between DP/Lou and FAIR? Are they on the board? Are they advisors? Will you continue to bring him on as a keynoter? Has he renounced his (and Lou's) past methods of attacking individuals (like me)?

Am I wrong to associate FAIR w/ DP and Lou? Does FAIR condemn the attacking of individuals as an apologetic tactic?

[mormonstories]

I believe you. But have you tried to contact them and offer good advice and do some writing yourself for the fair site?

I'd be thrilled to enter into dialogue with Dan Peterson or the FAIR folks. There are also some things I've done behind the scenes to try to help FAIR, even recently, which I'm not privy to discuss here. But I'm totally willing...if ya'll can let me know how to engage.

Edited February 13, 2013 by mormonstories

[DeeAnn]

John,

Providing examples of where FAIR has acted inappropriately would be the biggest help.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Friendly CFR. Have David Koresh's women stated they had strong spiritual feelings from God (akin to Joseph's wives' testimonies)?

Maybe they have. If so, I would be interested in seeing them and comparing them to polygamous wives' written or quoted testimonies.

I too was curious. I did find this CNN article. Doesn't exactly answer the question but provides insight. Search for wives.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/04/14/waco.koresh.believers/index.html

[mormonstories]

John,

Providing examples of where FAIR has acted inappropriately would be the biggest help.

I think I'm trying to say that associating so closely with Daniel Peterson while he supports tactics like commissioning a hit piece on me might be your biggest issue at this point...for the circles I run in, anyway.

[mfbukowski]

Don't know but Isaiah's event with bringing down fire from heaven would cause many today to denounce him as hurtful and unchrist like.

It would be denounced as trickery masking as miracle and he would be denounced as a cult leader I am sure!

[Darren10]

I think I'm trying to say that associating so closely with Daniel Peterson while he supports tactics like commissioning a hit piece on me might be your biggest issue at this point...for the circles I run in, anyway.

[Darren10]

I'd be thrilled to enter into dialogue with Dan Peterson or the FAIR folks. There are also some things I've done behind the scenes to try to help FAIR, even recently, which I'm not privy to discuss here. But I'm totally willing...if ya'll can let me know how to engage.

You can alter your tactics by not denouncing Dan Peterson and FAIR for being un-Christlike to you or anyone else without providing a single specific piece of evidence beyond saying Dan wrote a hit piece on you but luckily your General Authority friend put a stop to it. I mean, why would Dan or anyone else entertain your invite to dialogue when you've libeled them?

Edited February 14, 2013 by Darren10

[Darren10]

But, of course, the bottom line is that it's up to them to decide to dialogue with John Dehlin. Mine was only a suggestion of what John can do from his end.

[ERayR]

Defense is fine. But how the defense from people who claim to be members of the One and Only True Church of Christ should not be a no holds barred or as one proud apologist put it here- a "Dresden" type defense.

Lets think about the defense mounted by King Saul and David. They did not mount a kinder, gentler defense. I think there is a time for diplomacy and there are people that only look at diplomacy as weakness and only attack harder. The trick is discerning which is which.

That said. I have no bones against Dan Peterson nor FARMS as it was. I think it was a sad turn of events and that he was treated poorly. I take no glee in this. Others who associated with FARMS and or FAIR I may be less positive about. There are self anointed apologists’ here who I think do great damage to the Church and a few of them are posting on this thread.

I am glad you have no bones against Dr. Peterson or FARMS because I too think he, Dr. Midgley and others were treated quite poorly by self "anointed"

guardians of the churches good name who think the way you do about Peterson, etal. I think these "self anointed" censors are more dangerous than those they are censoring.

[awyatt]

Is it biased and at times underhanded -- absolutely. I'm not defending any of that. I'm only making the point that just like Richard Bushman does not hesitate to cite Fawn Brodie, I don't hesitate to refer folks to Mormon Think. That doesn't make Bushman or me anti-Mormon....we just feel like even anti-Mormon sources can be valuable at times.

I don't think your comparison really stands up. Richard Bushman does, indeed, cite Fawn Brodie in his papers and books. But he doesn't "refer folks" to Fawn Brodie. Cite MormonThink all you want (heck, FAIR cites them all the time), but referring people there seems injudicious. Folks at RfM refer people there all the time, as well, as a way to (in their words) "introduce doubt" to others around them. That fact, alone, should give anyone pause as to whether MormonThink is worthy of referral.

(I agree with you, though, on one point: Richard's citations and your referrals make neither one of you anti-Mormons.)

-Allen

[halconero]

why me,

In spite of its many, many flaws, I believe that Mormon Think (along with FAIR) is one of the two most comprehensive sites on the Internet attempting to directly address the difficult issues within Mormonism.

Is it biased and at times underhanded -- absolutely. I'm not defending any of that. I'm only making the point that just like Richard Bushman does not hesitate to cite Fawn Brodie, I don't hesitate to refer folks to Mormon Think. That doesn't make Bushman or me anti-Mormon....we just feel like even anti-Mormon sources can be valuable at times.

The one issue with anti-Mormon sources is that, even if there is some valuable information, you have to wade through a whole bunch of the proverbial "philosophies of men" to find the proverbial "scripture" mingled within it....

[ERayR]

FWIW, I totally agree that Mormon Think often hits below the belt. What I don't know if FAIR realizes is that people who claim to be followers of Jesus must hold to a higher standard if they don't want to be viewed as hypocrites.

He who brings a pillow to a fist fight gets badly bruised. Somehow I don't think the admonition to defend the faith meant half way. Is there not an admonition to speak sharply, betimes, and afterward showing forth love. Sometimes you just have to get their attention.

Edited February 13, 2013 by ERayR

[awyatt]

I think I'm trying to say that associating so closely with Daniel Peterson while he supports tactics like commissioning a hit piece on me might be your biggest issue at this point...for the circles I run in, anyway.

You might want to check with your contacts inside MI again. I know from talking to first-hand sources that Dan didn't commission such a thing, and most certainly not a "hit piece." Greg Smith wrote a review of Mormon Stories on his own impetus, without request or commission from Dan.

I know it is popular in the circles you run in to characterize Greg's paper as a "hit piece," even unread, but having read the paper I can assure you it was no such thing. It was a review, and a well-documented review--as one would expect for a scholarly review. Perhaps, some day, the world will be able to see it and judge for themselves.

-Allen

[Calm]

I think I'm trying to say that associating so closely with Daniel Peterson while he supports tactics like commissioning a hit piece on me might be your biggest issue at this point...for the circles I run in, anyway.

So there is nothing else especially significant about FAIR that bothers you besides Dan Peterson and Lou Midgley being associated with it? You have no specific examples of FAIR itself being problematic? If there is another significant or even minor issue, it seems to me you should be able to point to it with an example.

I don't see FAIR dismissing Dan Peterson or Lou Midgley based on unsubstantiated rumours.

Edited February 13, 2013 by calmoriah

[Nemesis]

I don't think that's in dispute. But so have the women involved with David Koresh and others (stated they a strong spiritual feelings from God, etc.)

We don't allow hyperbole such as this in on our board. Please read the board guidelines.

Nemesis

[Darren10]

Darren10 - I think that FAIR would do well to gather their own data. And I'd sincerely be happy to help them. And I am actually totally interested in providing a comfort zone and bridges for those struggling. Also, if I have been uncharitable or unloving, I apologize. That's not my intent.

A lot of what I asked you in my #185 was tongue-in-cheek whith hints of sincerity behind them. My biggest beef with you is that you offer complete sympathy to those who have left the Church and denounce the Church so far as fellowshipping them but when it comes to Dan Peterson you go on the attack. Huh? There's a huge disconnect in my brain when you do that. How is Dan Peterson worse than an LDS lesbian who refuses to live the law of chastity?

[Darren10]

I don't see FAIR dismissing Dan Peterson or Lou Midgley based on unsubstantiated rumours.

The world is doomed if they do.

[juliann]

I'd be thrilled to enter into dialogue with Dan Peterson or the FAIR folks. There are also some things I've done behind the scenes to try to help FAIR, even recently, which I'm not privy to discuss here. But I'm totally willing...if ya'll can let me know how to engage.

Thank you so much for the offer! The biggest help you or anyone can provide would be to point out specific things on the FAIR website that do not meet your standards so those weaknesses can be improved. I think I can speak for FAIR in saying honest and exact feedback about what FAIR actually does is greatly appreciated.

I look forward to your input. Wikiwonka would be a good person to start with and you can PM him on this board.

[BFUBFBEO'Brien]

I think I'm trying to say that associating so closely with Daniel Peterson while he supports tactics like commissioning a hit piece on me might be your biggest issue at this point...for the circles I run in, anyway.

Hi John, and all,

I'm a long-time reader, first-time poster, and I joined FAIR almost exactly two years ago. I know quite a lot about it, and also have some involvement with Interpreter. I joined FAIR, and continue to sink a lot of time into it, because I genuinely want to help people, including now some friends whose family members have gotten caught up in Mormon Stories and checked out.

John, I would be delighted to receive your helpful feedback. I've been following most of what you say in various fora. I also attended a MoSto conference in person and heard you speak and talked to other attendees. I really, really want to understand and help as many people as I can.

But I'm always left scratching my head. The example you've given so far of Dan/Lou commissioning a "hit piece" on you is, as Allen pointed out, a total misunderstanding, as it was neither commissioned nor is it a "hit piece" (I've also read it). Could you please furnish another example? As Juliann asks above, could you tell us where the FAIR site displays unChristlike characteristics? Could you be specific?

FAIR is full of really lovely people who really want to help. It distresses me that I can't even figure out what exactly we're being accused of.

[Calm]

Just in case there is any doubt by anyone reading the thread or Brother Dehlin himself that any time put into looking for specific examples of snark or other problems might be a wasted effort, I would like to point to past threads that have focused on just this (asking for specific examples of problems) that have resulted in changes (hopefully seen as improvements by all those involved) so it should be obvious that such calls are sincere and those of us at FAIR are very grateful to those who point out problems so we can improve the site, even critics who have no intention of helping us.

I say "we" though my side of things is mainly asking for input when I see people who say they have had bad experiences with FAIR material or FAIR itself, I marvel at the investment of time and attention that Wiki Wonka puts into improving the FAIR wiki, even to the point of looking at some extreme critical sites to see where they have found weaknesses.

[Calm]

FAIR is full of really lovely people who really want to help. It distresses me that I can't even figure out what exactly we're being accused of.

Anyone who is involved in the high and fine art of helping people through psychology, sociology and other forms of therapies (and even just applying common sense) quickly learns that offering concrete examples of where someone needs to improve is essential for the process of change to be effective. Vague criticisms, like vague goals, are pretty much useless when attempting to shape behaviour.

So hopefully Brother Dehlin will apply his education and extensive experience with those who have had issues in this area into helping FAIR improve itself in this way, just as he is willing to put time and effort into helping individuals improve themselves. I know that he has a lot of demands on his time, but again hopefully he will set aside some time for this worthy project...and personally I think if one has taken the time to publicly criticized someone or some organization and stated an opinion that they should change, there is an assumed obligation that goes along with taking that stance. I don't mean to come across judgmental here though I suspect it can easily be read that way, just stating how I normally look at things like criticism whether it's from a family member, friend or total stranger.

With all the source of input he has, he could be a tremendous asset.

Edited February 14, 2013 by calmoriah

[Wiki Wonka]

I think I'm trying to say that associating so closely with Daniel Peterson while he supports tactics like commissioning a hit piece on me might be your biggest issue at this point...for the circles I run in, anyway.

1) Dan Peterson did not commission an article to be written about you. He didn't ask for one. He did not seek one out. He simply happened to be the editor of the Review at the time that the article was submitted. That is the truth. You have repeatedly and publicly maligned him on this issue.

2) At the time that you emailed him about it, he hadn't even read it yet.

3) Greg Smith wrote the article on his own initiative. Nobody asked him to write it. He wrote it because he wanted to write it.

4) I've read it - the very first version that was sent to the Mormon Studies Review. It is a review of MormonStories.

5) The article makes no mention of your mission. It never did, in any revision. The conversation you had with Lou Midgley produced a severe misunderstanding regarding what the article was about. I cringed when I listened to the section of your podcast that talked about this, because it was so wrong. How could the situation have been so severely misunderstood?

Lou Midgley often responds to FAIR "Ask the Apologist" requests. He is often thanked by the questioners for his caring responses. I have seen Lou volunteer to personally visit people that are having difficulties. Just two days ago, I was conversing on Facebook with an old friend that I haven't seen for over 20 years. He told me that he had read an article that Lou wrote, and liked it so much that he called Dr. Midgley at home to talk to him about it (his wife was mortified that he would call Dr. Midgley at home). He said that Lou was very gracious and talked with him for 20 minutes. Yes, he is passionate. The world would be a more boring place without him. That is the Lou Midgley that I know.

FAIR will never disassociate itself from Lou Midgley and Dan Peterson.

With regard to FAIR and tone, I have, for several years now, volunteered to fix any issue found in the FAIR Wiki regarding tone. I have made this offer both on this board, and over on MormonDiscussions. And I have made such corrections many times. The offer still stands - If you or anyone else finds something with an objectionable or un-Christlike tone in the FAIR Wiki, I will fix it immediately. If you want to help FAIR, then help us locate and identify un-Christlike tone or phrases in our online works. For that, you would truly have our gratitude.

WW

Edited February 14, 2013 by Wiki Wonka

[Hamba Tuhan]

I think I'm trying to say that associating so closely with Daniel Peterson while he supports tactics like commissioning a hit piece on me might be your biggest issue at this point...for the circles I run in, anyway.

I'm happy to be corrected, but it seems to me that vilifying an organisation not for the content of its messages but rather because it associates with a man whom one personally dislikes at least somewhat resembles a classic argumentum ad hominem.

Edited February 14, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan

[DeeAnn]

I think I'm trying to say that associating so closely with Daniel Peterson while he supports tactics like commissioning a hit piece on me might be your biggest issue at this point...for the circles I run in, anyway.

anything else?