cdowis Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 (edited) I've seen you mention towers as evidence a few times and I'm interested to know the specifics of the mesoamerican towers if you have a link?Do you understand the difference between a temporary platform, and a permanent tower? You really are not familiar with the major religious structures in mesoamerica, including towers where various ceremonies were performed, including sacrifices?I am speaking of a Rameumpton as part of a permanent religious structure. I was assuming that my audience would understand that this was not referring to some temporary wooden platform.Silly me. I guess i will have to devote several hours on details in my posts, rather than making assumptions about the readers of my posts. Edited January 19, 2013 by cdowis
Tacenda Posted January 19, 2013 Author Posted January 19, 2013 (edited) Why do you think it is a coincidence? Have you actually done any research on the history of the Comoros Islands, or are you just speaking off the top of your head.No, I had just recently read about it on Fair, that it is merely coincidence just like the tower in King Benjamin's speech and the towers in the revival camps during JS's day, one of which attracted 10,000 people to it. Though at one time that would have concerned me. Just making a comment to Canard's post and comparing coincidences. Are you suggesting I shouldn't comment until I've got scholar attached to my name? Because if that's the case I'm definitely in the wrong ballgame. Edited January 19, 2013 by Tacenda
cdowis Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 No, I had just recently read about it on Fair, that it is merely coincidenceFAIR articles are just another post without explicitly allowing an opposing comment. The opinions there are no better or worse than those of the people participating here in the forum.
Storm Rider Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 No, I had just recently read about it on Fair, that it is merely coincidence just like the tower in King Benjamin's speech and the towers in the revival camps during JS's day, one of which attracted 10,000 people to it. Though at one time that would have concerned me. Just making a comment to Canard's post and comparing coincidences. Are you suggesting I shouldn't comment until I've got scholar attached to my name? Because if that's the case I'm definitely in the wrong ballgame.Tacenda, I think it might be time to provide our friend, cdowis, some room to be having a bad day. He is humble enough to admit that he is not near the scholar he appears to be defining and he knows better than to make such assumptions about others. We all get up on the wrong side on some days and I find that I have got up on the wrong side more than my share. I think that I might actually be turning into a grouchy, old codger. What is worse is that I don't spend more time trying to be a more positive person. It is as if I find myself sliding into this way of being and not really interested in changing.
Tacenda Posted January 19, 2013 Author Posted January 19, 2013 There is even a simpler reason for higher use of anti-depressants in Utah. Utah is a test market for the marketing of drugs. No company would spend millions of dollars for advertizing if it didn't work.So we Utahns are guinea pigs for these dang drug companies? That's sad if true. Are they thinking people in Utah are so trustworthy we'll believe anything? I've never heard this about Utah but know many women that are drug dependant. Do we need to crack down on this scam by doctors if they are getting a kick back for suggesting to their patients a new drug!?!?
cdowis Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 (edited) This forum is not a place to practice "pop psychology". If someone has offended you, use the "ignore" function to resolve your issues with that individual. Edited January 19, 2013 by cdowis
thesometimesaint Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 (edited) So we Utahns are guinea pigs for these dang drug companies? That's sad if true. Are they thinking people in Utah are so trustworthy we'll believe anything? I've never heard this about Utah but know many women that are drug dependant. Do we need to crack down on this scam by doctors if they are getting a kick back for suggesting to their patients a new drug!?!?The drug companies don't test the drugs on Utah residents, or at least not any more than any other control group.They test how well their advertizing is working. Sorry if I wasn't more clear.Ps. Utah because of its' relatively homogenous population is a good testbed for all types of consumer products. You get them sooner than we do here in California. Edited January 19, 2013 by thesometimesaint
Tacenda Posted January 19, 2013 Author Posted January 19, 2013 (edited) The drug companies don't test the drugs on Utah residents, or at least not any more than any other control group.They test how well their advertizing is working. Sorry if I wasn't more clear.No, it was the reader that got it wrong not the writer! Thanks for elaborating on it more! Edited January 19, 2013 by Tacenda
volgadon Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 No, I had just recently read about it on Fair, that it is merely coincidence just like the tower in King Benjamin's speech and the towers in the revival camps during JS's day, one of which attracted 10,000 people to it. Though at one time that would have concerned me. Just making a comment to Canard's post and comparing coincidences. Are you suggesting I shouldn't comment until I've got scholar attached to my name? Because if that's the case I'm definitely in the wrong ballgame.A tower, even what cdowis is suggesting, would not be a significant parallel of any sort, either ancient or modern. The only alternative before PA systems would have been an amphitheatre.
mfbukowski Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 OK, you don't believe that the Bible teaches that our salvation is dependent on what we do while we're alive. I never said thatI'd be curious for you to show how that is reflected in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. But, to stay on topic, can you show me where in the Book of Mormon it teaches that we have all of eternity to accept Christ - or why a belief in the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon gets one to that position?It's in the D&C and other revelations.There is not much point to this. You don't understand our beliefs 1
rongo Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 Tacenda, I have always thought that parallels such as “Commoros/Moroni” and place names near the northeastern U.S. that are similar to Book of Mormon names are what I would focus on if I were an aggressive anti-Mormon. They pack a punch at first glance and exacerbate feelings of dread in people who already question things.As with all criticism’s against Joseph Smith and the Restoration, though, there is more than at first glance. Here are a few thoughts of mine:1) When were maps showing Commoros/Moroni near Madagascar first available? Were these maps accessible to simple people like Joseph Smith and his type at that time? Is it even possible to connect Joseph Smith through a convoluted “six degrees of separation” to maps with these names?2) What is the history of the name of that island group and the city? Did it have other, earlier names? I know that Commoros and Madagascar had heavy involvement with Arab mariners and traders in the 1300s, so is the name influenced by Arabic? Drawing parallels between Semitic languages (including Arabic, which Lehi and Ishmael have links to) actually plays into Book of Mormon apolgetics’ strength. What if the actual name Commoros/Moroni linguistically supports the Book of Mormon?3) Parallels like this actually abound. There is a place in Mongolia called Morön. Since Moron is a Jaredite name (if you’ve ever had a chance to teach the Book of Ether to teenagers, you can’t avoid “Ha! His name is moron!”), and since the Jaredite migration may have traveled through central Asia (there is a lot of Hugh Nibley stuff on this), what do we make of that? The – i ending on names is Arabic (Nibley again), and Moroni’s name is pretty clearly derived from Jaredite influence (Mormon is too, for that matter).There is always more than meets the eye with place name and name criticisms.Just a couple of thoughts . . .
Tacenda Posted January 19, 2013 Author Posted January 19, 2013 Tacenda, I have always thought that parallels such as “Commoros/Moroni” and place names near the northeastern U.S. that are similar to Book of Mormon names are what I would focus on if I were an aggressive anti-Mormon. They pack a punch at first glance and exacerbate feelings of dread in people who already question things.As with all criticism’s against Joseph Smith and the Restoration, though, there is more than at first glance. Here are a few thoughts of mine:1) When were maps showing Commoros/Moroni near Madagascar first available? Were these maps accessible to simple people like Joseph Smith and his type at that time? Is it even possible to connect Joseph Smith through a convoluted “six degrees of separation” to maps with these names?2) What is the history of the name of that island group and the city? Did it have other, earlier names? I know that Commoros and Madagascar had heavy involvement with Arab mariners and traders in the 1300s, so is the name influenced by Arabic? Drawing parallels between Semitic languages (including Arabic, which Lehi and Ishmael have links to) actually plays into Book of Mormon apolgetics’ strength. What if the actual name Commoros/Moroni linguistically supports the Book of Mormon?3) Parallels like this actually abound. There is a place in Mongolia called Morön. Since Moron is a Jaredite name (if you’ve ever had a chance to teach the Book of Ether to teenagers, you can’t avoid “Ha! His name is moron!”), and since the Jaredite migration may have traveled through central Asia (there is a lot of Hugh Nibley stuff on this), what do we make of that? The – i ending on names is Arabic (Nibley again), and Moroni’s name is pretty clearly derived from Jaredite influence (Mormon is too, for that matter).There is always more than meets the eye with place name and name criticisms.Just a couple of thoughts . . . I agree and have crossed that bridge but thanks for more insights.
canard78 Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 Do you understand the difference between a temporary platform, and a permanent tower? You really are not familiar with the major religious structures in mesoamerica, including towers where various ceremonies were performed, including sacrifices?I am speaking of a Rameumpton as part of a permanent religious structure. I was assuming that my audience would understand that this was not referring to some temporary wooden platform.Silly me. I guess i will have to devote several hours on details in my posts, rather than making assumptions about the readers of my posts.Why so sarcastic? I asked a question about mesoamerican towers and how they were different to other religious elevations.I'm not asking for an essay, just a link. I referenced a parallel between a temporary (?) built-for-purpose tower for King Benjamin and methodist camps. I don't hold that as evidence of the Book of Mormon being a fraud. I hold that up to illustrate that certain human behaviours can be found in many cultures. As such I was I was interested to know more about the mesoamerican towers. Rather than being critical why not just share the source of your information so we can all be aware of it?"...rather than making assumptions about the readers of my posts." Given I'd asked you for more info clearly I didn't already know.
canard78 Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 The drug companies don't test the drugs on Utah residents, or at least not any more than any other control group.They test how well their advertizing is working. Sorry if I wasn't more clear.Ps. Utah because of its' relatively homogenous population is a good testbed for all types of consumer products. You get them sooner than we do here in California.As someone who works in advertising testing it's highly unlikely that this would make any impact on the volume of consumption of the product. Could I get a cfr on this and I'll comment on their methodology and whether it is of significant. Not a cfr out of disbelief but to clarify the impact. More likely they test the advertising in Utah among a sample of survey pannelists. They might have chosen Utah to collect sample because it is known for having a higher proportion of users and therefore easier to find panelists. As mentioned, can I get a reference to the claim and I'll let you know.
canard78 Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 A tower, even what cdowis is suggesting, would not be a significant parallel of any sort, either ancient or modern. The only alternative before PA systems would have been an amphitheatre.Thanks and exactly. I don't the Book of Mormon Rameumpton was used for sacrifices. So we have one group in the BoM using it to repeat a set-prayer and mesoamericans using a tower for sacrifice? Not much of an evidence so far. But I'd be happy to learn more, which is why I'd asked cdowis for a reference.It reminds me of the line from Shrek, "Ogres have layers, onions have layers." They also "both make you cry." But Shrek is clearly not an onion. 1
canard78 Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 Tacenda, I have always thought that parallels such as “Commoros/Moroni” and place names near the northeastern U.S. that are similar to Book of Mormon names are what I would focus on if I were an aggressive anti-Mormon. They pack a punch at first glance and exacerbate feelings of dread in people who already question things.As with all criticism’s against Joseph Smith and the Restoration, though, there is more than at first glance. Here are a few thoughts of mine:1) When were maps showing Commoros/Moroni near Madagascar first available? Were these maps accessible to simple people like Joseph Smith and his type at that time? Is it even possible to connect Joseph Smith through a convoluted “six degrees of separation” to maps with these names?2) What is the history of the name of that island group and the city? Did it have other, earlier names? I know that Commoros and Madagascar had heavy involvement with Arab mariners and traders in the 1300s, so is the name influenced by Arabic? Drawing parallels between Semitic languages (including Arabic, which Lehi and Ishmael have links to) actually plays into Book of Mormon apolgetics’ strength. What if the actual name Commoros/Moroni linguistically supports the Book of Mormon?3) Parallels like this actually abound. There is a place in Mongolia called Morön. Since Moron is a Jaredite name (if you’ve ever had a chance to teach the Book of Ether to teenagers, you can’t avoid “Ha! His name is moron!”), and since the Jaredite migration may have traveled through central Asia (there is a lot of Hugh Nibley stuff on this), what do we make of that? The – i ending on names is Arabic (Nibley again), and Moroni’s name is pretty clearly derived from Jaredite influence (Mormon is too, for that matter).There is always more than meets the eye with place name and name criticisms.Just a couple of thoughts . . . I would agree that the Commoros/Moroni as 'evidence against' is pretty impactful at first site, but weak once it's thought about. I think as Tacenda has already said that it's probably not really evidence either way and is instead is probably an example of a quirky linguistic coincidence.And this epitomises the issue of parallels as evidence either way. Have you come across the Abraham Lincoln vs JFK parallel essay. It basically shows that when you line up multiple facts you'll get parallels, but that they are only impactful if you ignore all the non-parallels.http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln–Kennedy_coincidences_urban_legend
rodheadlee Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 As I've read over the thread "Fairy Tales and the BOM". I see that there are a few that believe in the church no matter if the BOM is historical or not. Is it because they feel the church is the best one to raise a family in, do they feel the LDS people among the best they've met? Do LDS make the best neighbors? Is there a light in their countenance? Do these attributes make you think you would stay LDS no matter what. Even if the church is like any other Christian church? Or would you leave and find another church or become Athiest? My personal opinion is that if the church ever determined that the BOM wasn't historical but wanted to continue to have a Christ centered church, (somewhat like the RLDS aka Community of Christ church did) I believe I would stay LDS!It'll never happen. God, Heavenly Father has witnessed to me the truth of the BoM. Nephi was a real person, he really built a ship and sailed it to the New World. Jesus Christ really did come to the Americas amongst other places. So, I can't answer your question because I would be denying my personal revelations, I would be denying the Holy Spirit. I would be denying the times God took the time and effort to speak to me. Should I put my trust in man or in God? 3
cdowis Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 (edited) del Edited January 19, 2013 by cdowis
rodheadlee Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 (edited) Resorting to Paul is fine for all those who agree with Paul. But as I said, there are billions of other religionists and non-religionists who live good lives: measuring "good" by the very same definitions of behavior (living by "the golden rule" for instance), who are left out of "saving grace" until they join THE religion being asserted to be "God's only true and living church". None of those assertions can be verified by anyone as superior over the rest: no deal breaker is on offer from "God". If you believe in your dogma, so too does the Muslim (and s/he over the breakaway sects of Islam too), the Jew (ditto) and any number of other dogmatic and exclusive "brands" of the "Abrahamic" religions. Right in our midst we have the FLDS sects, which categorically are denied any validity by the mainstream LDS Church; while the numerous sects that fall under "FLDS" disagree with each other too.So pointing out that I have not received "the witness" you have begs the question: is such a witness even valid? If ONE is, then ALL the rest of the world is doomed for not knowing. But if NONE of them are, then "receiving a witness" means no more than a stepping stone along the way for that person. A living faith is a growing one: one that accepts that "God", being Infinite, cannot possibly be contained by a dogma no matter what that dogma is."God" works inside and outside of all religions; that fits the evidence of contemporary and ancient history. Dogmatic fundamentalism separates people: "God" working inside and outside of all religions ultimately unites people. Unity is of "God", disunity breeds ignorance and ultimately wars; often in the name of religion - all the Abrahamic religions take their turn at making religious war and justifying it. As Paul says, God is not a maker of confusion: but if Paul's definition of confusion is everything outside of his primitive Christianity, then Paul is proposing divisive doctrine; and I do not believe that "God" ever promoted anything to separate people, when essentially the only difference in their cultures, societies and civilizations is the manner of their religious practices....CFR Unity is of God.Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send apeace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.foes shall be they of his own bhousehold.37 He that aloveth father or mother bmore than me is not worthy of me: and he that cloveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not bworthy of me. Edited January 19, 2013 by rodheadlee
canard78 Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 delI'm not sure if that was originally a reply to me, but I'd still welcome links to further reading on towers.
Tacenda Posted January 20, 2013 Author Posted January 20, 2013 It'll never happen. God, Heavenly Father has witnessed to me the truth of the BoM. Nephi was a real person, he really built a ship and sailed it to the New World. Jesus Christ really did come to the Americas amongst other places. So, I can't answer your question because I would be denying my personal revelations, I would be denying the Holy Spirit. I would be denying the times God took the time and effort to speak to me. Should I put my trust in man or in God?I'm sure you hear God a little better than most out on the ocean at night. And can imagine how much closer one is when they are faced with mother nature on a daily basis as you and your wife are out at sea.
ERayR Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 I'm sure you hear God a little better than most out on the ocean at night. And can imagine how much closer one is when they are faced with mother nature on a daily basis as you and your wife are out at sea.Not to be argumentative but I can feel quite close by going to my little cubbyhole of and office, shutting the door and meditating.
Garden Girl Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 (edited) Not to be argumentative but I can feel quite close by going to my little cubbyhole of and office, shutting the door and meditating.I know how you feel ERayR... living alone, I can be alone anywhere in my home and I can feel the Spirit and sometimes I'll put on "music to meditate by" and it's wonderful.But... but... I have to tell you... whenever I walk along the shore, particularly on my Gleneden Beach, which hardly ever has more than a handful of people spread out over several miles, I can't not pray... the power of the waves, the cries of the gulls, the sky is vast...uninhibited by cityscapes, the beach stretching out before me. I feel humble and small. The sea is so beautiful that I just feel so close to Heavenly Father that I have to pray... I come home renewed...GG Edited January 20, 2013 by Garden Girl 1
ERayR Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 I know how you feel ERayR... living alone, I can be alone anywhere in my home and I can feel the Spirit and sometimes I'll put on "music to meditate by" and it's wonderful.But... but... I have to tell you... whenever I walk along the shore, particularly on my Gleneden Beach, which hardly ever has more than a handful of people spread out over several miles, I can't not pray... the power of the waves, the cries of the gulls, the sky is vast...uninhibited by cityscapes, the beach stretching out before me. I feel humble and small. The sea is so beautiful that I just feel so close to Heavenly Father that I have to pray... I come home renewed...GGAll my life I have said that I was going to retire to the Oregon coast but alas things didn't work out that way. I really do envy you.
Calm Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 I'm not sure if that was originally a reply to me, but I'd still welcome links to further reading on towers.Since you are likely reading in this thread, canard....Somewhere there is an unanswered post or two of yours to me I didn't get around to answering last night before turning off the iPad and I didn't answer them when I saw them earlier today and now I am once more going to bed and don't want to take the time to look for them, so I will give you my answer to both here that I remember thinking even if I don't remember the posts and you can apply it as you like: "You are likely right.".
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