EllenMaksoud Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 As I've read over the thread "Fairy Tales and the BOM". I see that there are a few that believe in the church no matter if the BOM is historical or not. Is it because they feel the church is the best one to raise a family in, do they feel the LDS people among the best they've met? Do LDS make the best neighbors? Is there a light in their countenance? Do these attributes make you think you would stay LDS no matter what. Even if the church is like any other Christian church? Or would you leave and find another church or become Athiest? My personal opinion is that if the church ever determined that the BOM wasn't historical but wanted to continue to have a Christ centered church, (somewhat like the RLDS aka Community of Christ church did) I believe I would stay LDS!I've never felt myself to be a metaphysical sort at all, but even if the BOM was total bunk, so many things have happened in my life that I know Holy Spirit was guiding me some how. Too many inexplicable things have happened along the way. I'm LDS, Bom or not.
Ahab Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 To be quite honest, I don't think it is possible to 'find that the Bom was not historical'. We just don't know enough about history to accurately say anything of the likes.It actually happened. The people who wrote about what happened may not have used the best words to describe or explain what they saw or experienced that happened, but what they're writing about actually happened and they were real, live witnesses to it. They wrote about what they saw, and heard, and thought, and felt, and their record(s) of history as at least as accurate as any other record(s) of history.
canard78 Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 We do have them. Along with plenty of other colors.http://www.birds-of-....net/ducks.htmlIn that case I'm the Pekin Duck:And not the Domestic Goose (squarer head, longer neck, more orange bill and just downright scary look in his mean eyes):
Garden Girl Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 (edited) I've never felt myself to be a metaphysical sort at all, but even if the BOM was total bunk, so many things have happened in my life that I know Holy Spirit was guiding me some how. Too many inexplicable things have happened along the way. I'm LDS, Bom or not.Hello EllenM...I know exactly what you mean... I too have had many experiences that can't be explained away.When I was a temple worker it was right at the time when gas prices had risen to just over $4.00 in my area. I was making the 160-mile round trip into Portland every week, plus my other regular driving here on the coast. My gas bill was getting so high that I had to do something so I was considering cutting back my temple service, which I did not want to do. So one afternoon I was kneeling and praying fervently for help in knowing what to do to keep my weekly temple service... about a half hour later I got a call from the RS president that the bishop asked her to notify us that he had received donations from an anonymous ward member to help offset the cost of gas for the three of us sisters, all widows, who were serving weekly... each month while the price was so high, we got a gas card that made all the difference. When the price went down, the stipend stopped.I will always remember how I had knelt with a heavy heart and prayed for help... and a half hour later... all was taken care of...Numerous times I've had experiences that have given me knowledge that Heavenly Father is mindful of us... knows us... and that the Spirit guides us when we are in tune with and living the gospel.GG Edited January 18, 2013 by Garden Girl
EllenMaksoud Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 Hello EllenM...I know exactly what you mean... I too have had many experiences that can't be explained away.When I was a temple worker it was right at the time when gas prices had risen to just over $4.00 in my area. I was making the 160-mile round trip into Portland every week, plus my other regular driving here on the coast. My gas bill was getting so high that I had to do something so I was considering cutting back my temple service, which I did not want to do. So one afternoon I was kneeling and praying fervently for help in knowing what to do to keep my weekly temple service... about a half hour later I got a call from the RS president that the bishop asked her to notify us that he had received donations from an anonymous ward member to help offset the cost of gas for the three of us sisters, all widows, who were serving weekly... each month while the price was so high, we got a gas card that made all the difference. When the price went down, the stipend stopped.I will always remember how I had knelt with a heavy heart and prayed for help... and a half hour later... all was taken care of...Numerous times I've had experiences that have given me knowledge that Heavenly Father is mindful of us... knows us...GGI agree. It is all to powerful in a way I can not avoid. To doubt it would make me two stops past barking mad.Something I told the Stake President is that I had believed in the prophet Muhammad PBUH, and the Qur'an, so Prophet Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon were not much of a reach. Once again, I sometimes think that people bring up doubts about our church as a way to avoid the crux of the matter and that is obeying the two commandments of Jesus Christ.
ERayR Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 My attempt to switch from dead pan to sarcasm... Didn't work again.I was implying that if beauty is the objective, does it matter if it is real or not?If it has a spiritual impact, does it it matter if it is real or not?YesI can see that beauty can be reached by a consensus, but then I can show people a vista and know they have seen it, from the same perspective and under the same light that I have.But I can't with spiritual experiences. There's no consensus on spiritual experiences. I don't know whether mine are more intense or substantial than those you have had or less so. I can't take a friend to the same spiritual experience that I have. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your analogy but there's not consensus on spirituality like there is on expected behaviour as a result of spiritual experience.This going to sound like a contradiction... I know I have had experiences that I ascribe to being 'spiritual' in nature. I know I felt what I felt, had the impressions etc. They were real feelings. But I don't have certainty that I interacted with God, only that I had strong feelings in response to religious questions.Build on it. However certain I am that the experiences happened, I choose to give God the credit as the source of the feelings. That's the choice that I think we all make. We can't see or touch God, but we choose to give him credit for the powerful feelings we sometimes have when considering/asking/studying things of a godly nature.What else can one do when there is no other plausible answer. 1
Tacenda Posted January 18, 2013 Author Posted January 18, 2013 (edited) I agree. It is all to powerful in a way I can not avoid. To doubt it would make me two stops past barking mad.Something I told the Stake President is that I had believed in the prophet Muhammad PBUH, and the Qur'an, so Prophet Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon were not much of a reach. Once again, I sometimes think that people bring up doubts about our church as a way to avoid the crux of the matter and that is obeying the two commandments of Jesus Christ.(That's not me, avoiding loving my HF & my neighbor.) You are the perfect person to say this to, because you were EV at one time (I thought you were at one time anyway). For a long time I've worried that believing we could be Gods, is wrong, and not being born again or not believing we are saved by Grace alone and not of our works was going to be a problem, I had been listening to several EV's sermons/anti Mormon stuff. But, I still seem to believe as you do and have had some powerful whisperings that the church is Christ's church, no matter what. But sometimes I'm taking a step ahead and then two steps back. It's been several years of this and it's getting very old and wearing. It's almost a habit to be preoccupied with all things Mormon, and I can't break free. Edited January 18, 2013 by Tacenda
Questing Beast Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 ...The point of my previous post is that there are higher revealations God has in store for men than the ones that come by means of the light of Christ. I testify that one of those higher revelations of truth is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's one true Church. Anyone can know the truthfulness of what I've just testified to, if they follow the way prescribed by the Lord to obtain such.BIC, lived and still live an active, faithful Latter-day Saint lifestyle; spent all of my adult life seeking truth. A concentrated diligence in the study of Church history, specifically Joseph Smith, rendered quite the opposite of what you testify to here. Yet I feel closer to "God" than ever: with my widening "ecumenical" outlook and altered religious world view; altered to include everybody, not just those who opt to become Mormons, either now or in the Millennium, etc. "God" isn't that finite, or boring, to insist upon one way to live. Any righteous life is just as valid as another; and by "righteous" I assert that "never lie to yourself" is the ultimate commandment incumbent upon everyone regardless of any other factors. That mental, spiritual state is not denied anyone. We all learn to not lie to ourselves through experience; some are more adept at personal truth than others, but as long as the desire and intent is there to be honest in all things, all such people are progressing toward "God" and ultimately a reunion as a soul-mate with "God". Why that would require a singular adherence to an earthly dogmatic paradigm makes no sense to me: especially when all the best evidence gained through continued study says that the religion is man-made just like all the rest going back as far as we have any historical evidence to study at all.... 1
teddyaware Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 BIC, lived and still live an active, faithful Latter-day Saint lifestyle; spent all of my adult life seeking truth. A concentrated diligence in the study of Church history, specifically Joseph Smith, rendered quite the opposite of what you testify to here. Yet I feel closer to "God" than ever: with my widening "ecumenical" outlook and altered religious world view; altered to include everybody, not just those who opt to become Mormons, either now or in the Millennium, etc. "God" isn't that finite, or boring, to insist upon one way to live. Any righteous life is just as valid as another; and by "righteous" I assert that "never lie to yourself" is the ultimate commandment incumbent upon everyone regardless of any other factors. That mental, spiritual state is not denied anyone. We all learn to not lie to ourselves through experience; some are more adept at personal truth than others, but as long as the desire and intent is there to be honest in all things, all such people are progressing toward "God" and ultimately a reunion as a soul-mate with "God". Why that would require a singular adherence to an earthly dogmatic paradigm makes no sense to me: especially when all the best evidence gained through continued study says that the religion is man-made just like all the rest going back as far as we have any historical evidence to study at all....Hi Questing,I'm enjoying your thoughtful responses. The only comment I'd like to make in response to your above comments are not my comments at all, but the final words of Nephi, as recorded in the Book of Mormon. All the best to you and yours...10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day. (2 Nephi:31)
Stargazer Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 Trying to imagine how it could be "found" that the Book of Mormon is not historical. Hmmm. Shall I launch into a lecture on how difficult it is to prove a negative?But for the sake of argument, I'll bite.Yes.In the spirit of Questing Beast, I am already convinced that Job was not a real person, yet I believe that it doesn't matter. Because the story of Job was intended to teach some important principles, the histoicity of Job is unimportant.Same for the Book of Mormon. I have a testimony of it, and it is true. I believe it to be historical, in the bargain, but if it were not, this would not invalidate my spiritual witness. It is GOD in whom in trust, ultimately. And those spiritual witnesses came from Him.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 I would stay within the realms of the Restoration- I certainly wouldn't throw out the BofM in favor of a Bible-only religious construct.
Garden Girl Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 (edited) (That's not me, avoiding loving my HF & my neighbor.) You are the perfect person to say this to, because you were EV at one time (I thought you were at one time anyway). For a long time I've worried that believing we could be Gods, is wrong, and not being born again or not believing we are saved by Grace alone and not of our works was going to be a problem, I had been listening to several EV's sermons/anti Mormon stuff. But, I still seem to believe as you do and have had some powerful whisperings that the church is Christ's church, no matter what. But sometimes I'm taking a step ahead and then two steps back. It's been several years of this and it's getting very old and wearing. It's almost a habit to be preoccupied with all things Mormon, and I can't break free.Tacenda lady...So often you seem to be a tad off toward the negative side and what we really teach... I've underlined a couple areas as an example. We are "born again" in the sense that we repent and are baptized into Christ and receive the Holy Ghost through the laying on of hands (water and fire)...Second, we are saved by grace (2nd Nephi 25:23; Moro 10:32-33; Eth 12:27; D&C 17:, but we are judged by our works (Rev 20:12, Mosiah 3:24 etc). In other words, no matter what we do on our own (works), it is Christ's grace that saves us. There are numerous papers, conference talks, etc that address this in detail.GG Edited January 18, 2013 by Garden Girl 2
Sethbag Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 (edited) I'd probably apostatize. Oh, wait...I think there's pretty good reason to believe the Book of Mormon isn't true already, but you wouldn't know it by reading most of the posts from most of the posters in this (or any thread on this board). So what does that tell you?It tells me that either I'm wrong and it really is true (probably what most of you believe), or it tells me that I'm right, but there's something about belief and commitment to beliefs and commitment to a religion which makes it very hard for people to see things about those beliefs or that religion that are pretty obvious to everyone else.To be clear, the Book of Mormon is not only not true, it's obviously not true. The reactions against this statement, and the reasons for those reactions, should tell us a lot about religion and how the religious belief and mindset create thought processes and defenses to shield the believers from statements like this.Btw, if you are TBM and don't believe me, just ask yourself why it is that literally billions of other religious believers out there stick so firmly with religions that are pretty obviously not true to you. Now try to consider that whatever the reasons are, some of them may also be applying to you. The very fact of the billions of believers in not-true religions testifies that this is far harder to do, than it is to say. Edited January 18, 2013 by Sethbag 1
volgadon Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 To be clear, the Book of Mormon is not only not true, it's obviously not true.That is ok. You are obviously wrong here, but your reactions against this statement should tell us a lot about how your mindset create thought processes and so on. 2
Sethbag Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 (edited) That is ok. You are obviously wrong here, but your reactions against this statement should tell us a lot about how your mindset create thought processes and so on.If I'm wrong about the LDS church then this statement of mine does indeed stand as an example of itself. I don't think I'm wrong about the LDS church, but if I am, you're entirely correct.Btw, either way, my point stands. If the LDS church is true, then I'm wrong, and the fact that I can't see that says a lot about how I think and the processes that have lead me to think this way. If I'm right and you're wrong, then it says a lot about you and the things that have lead you to think this way.Far from weakening my point, I think this strengthens it. The point is that it's easy to think one is correct about something, and not be able to see how one is wrong, when in fact one is totally and utterly wrong. It's exceedingly easy. And that goes not doubly, or even triply, but probably a hundredfold for religion. Edited January 18, 2013 by Sethbag 1
canard78 Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 Build on it. What else can one do when there is no other plausible answer.I currently cling to it... I hope to build on it.There is a plausible answer. It's 'all in my head.' Did you believe Harold Camping for a minute when he said (for the third time!) that the world would end on Oct 21 2011? Did you admire the followers who were so convinced that they sold their houses and maxed out credit cards to fund the campaign or did you feel bemusement?If these people are so immediately and plainly wrong, without a moments consideration, how can we stand and say there is no plausible way that we are anything other than right? It's a strong enough feeling and impression that I continue to act on it, but given I dismiss other people's feelings and impressions as uninspired or a mental trick I am cautious to say that it is 'implausible' that mine could be the same. I don't believe they are the say, but it is plausible. By the way, given this is another thread about BoM authenticity, I gave several examples in the fairy tales one of people who claim to have seen Jesus in this life and ways we will see him in the next without believing the BoM to be historically accurate (after you said only people who do believe this will get to see Jesus). Here, here and here.I'm not sure you ever got back to me, I'd be interested to get a reply as I still don't agree with this statement you've said and I don't feel you've provided clear references that it is the case (Ether 3 and Moroni 10 don't say this). The board guidelines are that if you make an assertion you need to provide a reference if asked for it or retract it.You said:To accept the BoM as a guide for life while not accepting its origins is better than rejecting it altogether. However, one can not come face to face with Jesus with those kind of doubts....If you have doubts that the BoM is factual you must of necessity doubt the truth claims of the Church that espouses them. If you doubt those claims you are in effect doubting the words of Christ given through his prophets. If you doubt the words of Christ you can not develop faith enough to stand face to face with Jesus Christ on either side of the veil.
canard78 Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 I'd probably apostatize. Oh, wait...I think there's pretty good reason to believe the Book of Mormon isn't true already, but you wouldn't know it by reading most of the posts from most of the posters in this (or any thread on this board). So what does that tell you?It tells me that either I'm wrong and it really is true (probably what most of you believe), or it tells me that I'm right, but there's something about belief and commitment to beliefs and commitment to a religion which makes it very hard for people to see things about those beliefs or that religion that are pretty obvious to everyone else.To be clear, the Book of Mormon is not only not true, it's obviously not true. The reactions against this statement, and the reasons for those reactions, should tell us a lot about religion and how the religious belief and mindset create thought processes and defenses to shield the believers from statements like this.Btw, if you are TBM and don't believe me, just ask yourself why it is that literally billions of other religious believers out there stick so firmly with religions that are pretty obviously not true to you. Now try to consider that whatever the reasons are, some of them may also be applying to you. The very fact of the billions of believers in not-true religions testifies that this is far harder to do, than it is to say.I think this is the problem that few active LDS will accept. I've already mentioned Twain on this thread, so won't again. I can only conclude at present that it is right and true for me. In Elder Uchtdorf's recent conference talk he said that Jesus Christ's gospel is truth. I'm paraphrasing a little but he said: Eventually, all our doubts will be replaced by certainty because our Heavenly Father is the source of all truth. He knows truth as it was, is and will be. What is his truth? The gospel of Jesus Christ. He is the way, the truth and the life.The gospel of Jesus Christ was distilled into three parables in Matthew 25 (again, I'm repeating myself)... it culminates in him saying that at the end of the world he will gather the nations and divide them into sheep and goats... the qualification for being on the right hand and being granted eternal life? Simple: inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me... simple acts of human kindness, how we treat people will be the condition for receiving eternal life.This simple truth, this 'good news' permeates almost every religion, culture and philosophy. If this is to be the basis for the final judgement, then God has ensured every community has been given at least this one basic, but fundamental, instruction.
Gervin Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 I think this is the problem that few active LDS will accept. I've already mentioned Twain on this thread, so won't again.I can only conclude at present that it is right and true for me. In Elder Uchtdorf's recent conference talk he said that Jesus Christ's gospel is truth. I'm paraphrasing a little but he said: Eventually, all our doubts will be replaced by certainty because our Heavenly Father is the source of all truth. He knows truth as it was, is and will be. What is his truth? The gospel of Jesus Christ. He is the way, the truth and the life.The gospel of Jesus Christ was distilled into three parables in Matthew 25 (again, I'm repeating myself)... it culminates in him saying that at the end of the world he will gather the nations and divide them into sheep and goats... the qualification for being on the right hand and being granted eternal life? Simple: inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me... simple acts of human kindness, how we treat people will be the condition for receiving eternal life.This simple truth, this 'good news' permeates almost every religion, culture and philosophy. If this is to be the basis for the final judgement, then God has ensured every community has been given at least this one basic, but fundamental, instruction.Everything you say, after you state that the book is true to for you, has no dependence on the truthfulness of the book. If the shortest distance between two points is a straight line then the distance between me and Truth does not require a belief that the Book of Mormon is true. Some, who question the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, might even believe that the book is a stumbling block along that straight line.
teddyaware Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 (edited) Everything you say, after you state that the book is true to for you, has no dependence on the truthfulness of the book. If the shortest distance between two points is a straight line then the distance between me and Truth does not require a belief that the Book of Mormon is true. Some, who question the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, might even believe that the book is a stumbling block along that straight line.10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day. (2 Nephi:33) Edited January 18, 2013 by teddyaware 1
Questing Beast Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 Organized, dogmatic religions are helpful to some but not most people (some of the "some" seem to need a hefty dose of "fear the Almighty"). If they were helpful to most people then most people would be actively engaged with dogmatic organized religions: but in fact most people are only "on the records" as members and don't associate in any literal way with the religions of their fathers. Even within vital, growing religions such as Mormonism, the activity rates are usually less than 25%. The LDS definition of "active" is attendance in at least one meeting each quarter of a year (unless the definition has changed, because that is what it was ten years ago, according to our bishop sharing his handbook with us in a bishopric meeting): that's not very "engaged", imho. Anyone who attends "church" only once every three months is not really involved with that religion: their main focus is on other things. So when someone attends church weekly, reads the scriptures as often as they feel interested/needful, and offers service via the church community, etc., and still does not believe in core aspects of the religion, it seems to me that dogma is actually a hindrance to many people, and they only stick with it because of other than personal reasons: to benefit others; to not cause rifts in the family; to offer themselves a venue for socializing; to continue to at least make a token effort to "believe", etc.If we homo sapiens could get beyond our traditions, and individually develop a core metaphysical paradigm, in an effort to be with "God" continually, then I believe that we would find individual religion far more accessible to a soul-mate relationship with "God" than any effort to approach "God" via dogmatic, organized religion (which is man-made)....
canard78 Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 Everything you say, after you state that the book is true to for you, has no dependence on the truthfulness of the book. If the shortest distance between two points is a straight line then the distance between me and Truth does not require a belief that the Book of Mormon is true. Some, who question the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, might even believe that the book is a stumbling block along that straight line.I was talking about 'it' the church.
canard78 Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day. (2 Nephi:33)But Nephi turned out to be wrong. The equation is incorrect. It's not circular.I agree that if you believe in the Book of Mormon you will likely believe in Christ,But it's not true that if you believe in Christ you will believe in the Book of Mormon.There are dozens of examples of people who believe in Christ but reject the words of the Book of Mormon. Just because he was mentioned in the social hall, Shawn McCraney is one example. There are many, many more.
Gervin Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 I was talking about 'it' the church.Ok, but I would say my point still applies.
volgadon Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 Organized, dogmatic religions are helpful to some but not most people (some of the "some" seem to need a hefty dose of "fear the Almighty"). If they were helpful to most people then most people would be actively engaged with dogmatic organized religions: but in fact most people are only "on the records" as members and don't associate in any literal way with the religions of their fathers.Faulty reasoning which doesn't take into account other factors. 1
teddyaware Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 But Nephi turned out to be wrong. The equation is incorrect. It's not circular.I agree that if you believe in the Book of Mormon you will likely believe in Christ,But it's not true that if you believe in Christ you will believe in the Book of Mormon.There are dozens of examples of people who believe in Christ but reject the words of the Book of Mormon. Just because he was mentioned in the social hall, Shawn McCraney is one example. There are many, many more.Is it possible to believe in Christ but, at the same time, not believe some of what he's said?
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