Heavenly Mother

[Sky]

Lately I've had my mind on the topic of Heavenly Mother. With so little talk about her, is this a doctrine that we actually accept? Is this idea fundamental to Mormon doctrine, or is it merely a wishful thinking heresy among LDS liberal feminist circles? Has Heavenly Mother become a taboo topic in Mormonism? Why do we talk about her so little? Will we ever know anything more about her, or will we have to wait until we reach the other side of the veil? Is there any official statements about her from the Church?

Assuming that we are on this earth to become like God, and we need to be married in the temple to reach the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom, the logical conclusion is that God has a wife, right? Am I missing something here?

[Nathair/|\]

She's explicitly mentioned in the Proclamation on the Family and in the official

, so I guess that makes it official. I don't know why we don't talk about her more, but but she/they definitely exist.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

*cue inevitable post by that Orbe-Smith character*

There are all sorts of fun speculations out there. Just gotta do a little digging!

[Saints Alive]

I think the reason we talk about her so little is that so little is known, officially known anyway.

[blackstrap]

You can get your own revelation on this topic.( might take a while)

Then keep it to yourself. ( this is the hard part)

[Damien the Leper]

Proverbs 8 is doctrine on her. Heed her message. She isn't a silent subject and she deserves more recognition and reverance than we have given her. Pray to her. Talk to her. She's there.

[Nathair/|\]

Come to think of it, I do have a theory on why we don't talk about her much. Let's just say, "Spoilers."

[pogi]

Proverbs 8 is doctrine on her.

That is a creative interpretation.

[divinenature]

Because The Brethren aren't interested in asking for revelation about her for the world.

They don't care about her.

[Darren10]

She's explicitly mentioned in the Proclamation on the Family and in the official

, so I guess that makes it official. I don't know why we don't talk about her more, but but she/they definitely exist.

In the hymnal, yes, Heavenly Mother is explicitly mentioned. In the Proclamation, no she's not though I stand in full agreement with anyone which points out that it is she referred to as one of our "heavenly parents".

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@Sky;

I find there is no need to know any more about Heavenly Mother other than that she exists and exists as a heavenly parent. We know very little about the eternal nature our Heavenly Father. Other than He being the most high God and above all (1 Nephi 11:6) and that He appears as an exalted man of flesh and bone (D&C 130:22) most of what we learn of the Father is by focusing on the Son. Not on Heavenly Mother, nor on the Holy Ghost (though it is the Holy Ghost which testifies of the Father and of the Son - See first scripture citation). All things will be revealed to man in due time. I find no need to rush things.

[Darren10]

Proverbs 8 is doctrine on her. Heed her message. She isn't a silent subject and she deserves more recognition and reverance than we have given her. Pray to her. Talk to her. She's there.

You could NOT be more wrong, sir.

[Darren10]

Because The Brethren aren't interested in asking for revelation about her for the world.

They don't care about her.

[Darren10]

Valentinus;

I don't know the word in Hebrew for "wisdom", nor if there's a gender specific connection to that word but in Greek it's "sophia" which is definitely feminine". I think that explains the pronoun "she" in Proverbs 8. And Heavenly mother should absolutely NOT be prayed to.

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To all;

In Proverbs 8 we read:

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

Man, talk about a blatant declaration of the pro-mortal existence!!! Are there other interpretations on Proverbs 8?

Edited December 28, 2012 by Darren10

[Darren10]

Valentinus: RE: my #13;

Here's from Jeremy's link:

5- "Wisdom" (hÄkmÄh) in scripture is not necessarily a hypostatic divine figure rather than an abstraction. There is no reason to see biblical Wisdom as necessarily a goddess because the noun is grammatically feminine. Christ in the NT is called the Wisdom of God, using a feminine Greek noun sophia (1 Cor. 1:24), the straightforward equivalent of the Hebrew hÄkmÄh. (Hagia Sophia--Holy Wisdom, the great Byzantine church in Istanbul was dedicated to Christ.)

Yeah, what Hamblin said.

[Darren10]

Jeremy;

From your link you said in response to Bill Hamblim's post:

pointing to sins committed in the name of Asherah is not evidence that Asherah-worship is inherently sinful

Asherah worship is sinful today so why not in ancient times as well? If The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a restoration/restitution of "all things", than I do not recall anything to suggest a worship of a female deity. We know there is a Heavenly Mother and I think that's all we should know. Our faith and worship should emphatically be on woshipping the Father through the Son and guided by the Holy Spirit. While I'm entirely unqualified to answer your researched-based posts, I will say uncategorically that the LDS worhip the Father and the Son and none else. So, again, if the LDS faith is a restoration of all things, including polygamy, why then the lack of worship of Asherah or any female deity if it was part of the worship of God's covenant people of old?

[Darren10]

Bill Hamblin (if you catch this post);

Reading your response to Jeremy's Asherah post, what caught my eye was the following:

2- There was an ongoing sectarian debate within Israelite religion about the legitimacy of this veneration, but throughout most of Israelite history most Israelite kings and people worshipped a mother goddess. Goddess worship was the majority view of most Israelite. position. This worship began at least with Solomon (1 Kgs. 11:1-8, esp. 5), and continued into the exilic period (Jer. 44:17-19).

(Bold mine)

If I'm not mistaken, did you not recently take Margaret Barker to task in misplacing the corruption of temple worship from the First Temple during the time of Jeremiah? That the cleansing of the temple, which included the removal of Wisdom / Asherah from the temple ritual and that Jeremiah was OK with its removal? In other words, that the prophet Jeremiah saw what King Josiah did as a step towards true worship of YHWH? If this was good than I am cofused as to why your post (which I'll quote in its entirety below) seems to avoid outright condemning Asherah worship?

ENTIRE QUOTE:

I think there are some important things to remember.

1- There is simply no doubt that many ancient Israelites worshipped Asherah, or some other form of Mother goddess ("Queen of Heaven") as a consort of YHWH (not as a foreign pagan deity, but as an Israelite goddess). (On the other hand, Asherah was also worshipped by the Canaanites.) This is confirmed by both archaeology, inscriptions, and the Bible itself.

2- There was an ongoing sectarian debate within Israelite religion about the legitimacy of this veneration, but throughout most of Israelite history most Israelite kings and people worshipped a mother goddess. Goddess worship was the majority view of most Israelite. position. This worship began at least with Solomon (1 Kgs. 11:1-8, esp. 5), and continued into the exilic period (Jer. 44:17-19).

3- As far as I can tell, none of the prophets ever approved of goddess worship; the editors of the final version of the Bible clearly were of the YHWH-alone sect of Israelite religion, which became the majority view only after the return from exile. On the other hand, Israelite syncretism continued in various ways into the first century AD. (e.g. Philo's syncretism of YHWH with the philosophical monism of Plato.)

4- There is no compelling reason to equate the Israelite Asherah/Mother with the LDS concept of Mother in Heaven. On the other hand, such an equation is not necessarily impossible either. It should be remembered, in this regard, that it appears that the Israelite cult of Asherah involved cultic prostitution.

5- "Wisdom" (hÄkmÄh) in scripture is not necessarily a hypostatic divine figure rather than an abstraction. There is no reason to see biblical Wisdom as necessarily a goddess because the noun is grammatically feminine. Christ in the NT is called the Wisdom of God, using a feminine Greek noun sophia (1 Cor. 1:24), the straightforward equivalent of the Hebrew hÄkmÄh. (Hagia Sophia--Holy Wisdom, the great Byzantine church in Istanbul was dedicated to Christ.)

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

I find there is no need to know any more about Heavenly Mother other than that she exists and exists as a heavenly parent. We know very little about the eternal nature our Heavenly Father.

While (of course) you have every right not to research in an area that you don't find a need to know more about, some members of the church are very interested in learning more about our Heavenly Parents. I think there's a great deal of justification in scripture for searching out meat after we have been satisfied with milk. ("If any of you lack Wisdom ...")

For instance, D&C 130:19 says that "if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come." We say the Glory of God is Intelligence; 1 Samuel 2:3 says that "the Lord is a God of knowledge," and in Abraham 1:2, we learn that Abraham, "having been [him]self a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge" seeks learning, not just by faith, but also through deeper study of the scriptures.

(The idea that scholarship can be handwaved away is one of the more pernicious memes in our culture; as Brigham Young said: "'Mormonism' embraces all truth that is revealed and that is unrevealed, whether religious, political, scientific, or philosophical. It embraces every true science; all true philosophy. The philosophy of the heavens and the earth of the worlds that are, that were, and that are yet to come into existence, is all the Gospel that we have embraced. Every true philosopher, so far as he understands the principles of truth, has so much of the Gospel, and so far he is a Latter-day Saint, whether he knows it or not." We're supposed to gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, receiving truth from wherever it may come.)

Asherah worship is sinful today

I disagree. What reason is there for it be sinful?

Heavenly mother should absolutely NOT be prayed to.

Why?

(Remember that authoritarian pronouncements without justification render our Priesthood null and void, since it is only through persuasion and pure intelligence that we have any power. As President Brown said: "We have been blessed with much knowledge by revelation from God which, in some part, the world lacks. But there is an incomprehensibility greater part of truth which we must yet discover. Our revealed truth should leave us stricken with the knowledge of how little we really know. It should never lead to an emotional arrogance based upon a false assumption that we somehow have all the answers -- that we in fact have a corner on truth. For we do not.")

It's important to note at the outset that it's quite possible that the Holy Spirit of Wisdom is the same as is found in Luke 7:35, which teaches that "Wisdom [Sophia] is justified of all Her children." As the Gospel of the Hebrews says "Even so did my mother, the Holy Spirit, take me by one of my hairs, and carry me to the great Mount Tabor."

Exodus 28:3 says "thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the Spirit [Ruach/Wind] of Wisdom [Hokmah], that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office."

Proverbs 15:4 links the Spirit with the Tree of Life: "A wholesome tongue is a Tree of Life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the Spirit [Ruach]."

As Proverbs 3:18 says, "She [Lady Wisdom] is a Tree of Life to them that lay hold upon Her: and happy is every one that retaineth Her."

To continue into the New Testament, 1 Corinthians 12:8 says "For to one is given by the Spirit [Pneuma/breath/wind] the Word of Wisdom [sophia]; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit."

And of course in Revelation 12:1 we learn "there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars." (Like W. W. Phelps wrote to William Smith: "O Mormonism! Thy Father is God, thy Mother is the Queen of Heaven, and so thy whole history, from eternity to eternity, is the laws, ordinances and truth of the 'Gods'!")

As Revelation 22:2 says, "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the Tree of Life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded Her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

Since Asherah ["She Who Treads On The Sea", like the Ruach brooding over the Waters in Genesis] was represented by a stylized Tree (the Burning Bush, the seven-branched Menorah which was the only Light in the darkness of the Tabernacle in the Wilderness?) we have an interrelated complex of symbolism, namely:

The Spirit (Breath/Wind/Ruach) of [Lady] Wisdom (Sophia/Hokmah) is a Tree of Life (a grove/Asherah) to those who lay hold upon Her. (And don't forget the common mediterranean Goddess-symbol of the Dove, which alighted on Christ as a token of the Spirit.)

In Matthew 6:9, where Christ teaches His followers how to pray, he directs them towards their "Pater in the Ouranos", their Father in Heaven. In my view, this is simply because he's speaking to men raised in a deeply patriarchal society in which husbands were considered the "head" of their wives. (See some of Paul's more sexist speculations elsewhere, which contradict the Book of Mormon teaching that God "imparteth his word by angels unto men, yea, not only men but women also", not to mention his own teaching in Galatians that "there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.") (As Brigham Young taught, "when God speaks to the people, he does it in a manner to suit their circumstances and capacities.")

The usual objection to praying to our Mother alongside our Father comes from Matthew 19:17, in which Christ asks His follower, who is searching for eternal life: "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God [Theos]: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

From this, are we to assume that only one being should be worshipped/prayed-to? No, because as the Book of Alma teaches, "Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit [of Wisdom], [are] one Eternal God" -- ie, they are One in the way Christ prayed for in John 17:

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one."

Indeed, just a few verses earlier in that very chapter (Matthew 19, that is), Christ teaches that the Gods "which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." (As Brother Widstoe once said, "we must also have a mother who possesses the attributes of Godhood.")

This is not Trinitarianism or Ground-Of-All-Being metaphysics, this is an Infinite At-One-Ment between individuals who become One in purpose. A few verses later (again in chapter 19), we are told to "Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Our faith and worship should emphatically be on woshipping the Father through the Son and guided by the Holy Spirit. While I'm entirely unqualified to answer your researched-based posts, I will say uncategorically that the LDS worhip the Father and the Son and none else.

The too-common Mormon view that we only worship the Father ("patriolatry", if I can borrow a term from the Toscanos without endorsing their more fundamentalist Adam-God leanings) is contradicted in the Book of Mormon itself (3 Nephi 11:17), when the Nephites worship the Christ and are not rebuked:

"Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him."

Christ says that He wants all people to be enthroned alongside Him in the At-One-Ment. This is not a hierarchy (a word found nowhere in the Old or New Testaments), but a family of friends and equals, even if some of them are wiser than others and so elected to teach.

In the heavens are parents single?

No, the thought makes reason stare.

Truth is reason: truth eternal

tells me I've a mother there.

When I leave this frail existence,

When I lay this mortal by,

Father, Mother, may I meet you

in your royal courts on high?

Then, at length, when I’ve completed

All you sent me forth to do,

With your mutual approbation

Let me come and dwell with you.

As Erastus Snow wrote, “’do you mean we should understand that Deity consists of a man and woman?’ Most certainly I do. If I believe anything that God has ever said about himself […] I must believe that deity consists of a man and woman.”

"God" = Elohim, a plurality which created both an archetypal Adam and an archetypal Eve in their literal image. We're supposed to honor our fathers and our mothers.

If The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a restoration/restitution of "all things", than I do not recall anything to suggest a worship of a female deity. We know there is a Heavenly Mother and I think that's all we should know.

Again, it's fine if that's all you think you should know, but others are deeply dissatisfied with the current state of our knowledge, and want to learn more. Let's not forget the ninth Article of Faith, in which we declare that we believe that God "will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom."

We clearly should not use the the hyperbolic formulation of the Restoration of "all things" as if it were meant to close the Heavens again. Joseph Smith taught that it was "apparent that many important points touching the salvation of men, had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled" and that he only "believe[d] the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers [because] ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors."

He translated a book of scripture which teaches in 1 Nephi that "when the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew [...] it contained the fullness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record" but "there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God. And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles."

Furthermore, "many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible [...] Wherefore because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written." (2 Nephi 29:3,10).

To me, this corruption of scripture is very clear in the Deuteronomist editing of the Bible, in which scribes condemn Asherah from the margins of their writings as a foreign contamination of their monotheistic God. While the editors of the Bible spin the story with their marginal interjections claiming that worshipping Asherah is a sin, I think that merely proves the obvious point that the winners of the wars (physical or intellectual) write the histories.

We're supposed to seek out Wisdom from "the best books" because there are wise men we "know not of". If we have to seek out such books and wisdom, that implies that we do not currently possess them, and do not have a monopoly on truth; we cannot be complacent and just assume that we therefore have nothing left to learn. I'm not saying the speculations I've put forth here are capital-T truth, but I do think they're worth at least considering.

Since we are to "gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, [else] we shall not come out true 'Mormons'," then why can't we learn from scholars -- yes, even atheists who, exactly like Joseph Smith, reject the unbiblical bodiless paradox of a God taught to them by very specific philosophies of men, which we already believe to be opposed to the better philosophy of God, who is Himself a perfected Man?

As Brother Rudger Clawson said, “it doesn’t take away from our worship of the Eternal Father, to adore our Eternal Mother […] we honor woman when we acknowledge Godhood in her eternal prototype.”

"Come to me; here's the mysteries man hath not seen, Here's our Father in heaven, and Mother, the Queen."

Edited December 28, 2012 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[CV75]

Lately I've had my mind on the topic of Heavenly Mother. With so little talk about her, is this a doctrine that we actually accept? Is this idea fundamental to Mormon doctrine, or is it merely a wishful thinking heresy among LDS liberal feminist circles? Has Heavenly Mother become a taboo topic in Mormonism? Why do we talk about her so little? Will we ever know anything more about her, or will we have to wait until we reach the other side of the veil? Is there any official statements about her from the Church?

Assuming that we are on this earth to become like God, and we need to be married in the temple to reach the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom, the logical conclusion is that God has a wife, right? Am I missing something here?

I don't think so. In line with 2 Nephi 25:26 (and 29), our primary focus is on Christ. How we behave as husbands and wives, fathers and mothers, children, etc. then reveals the obvious, which is all we need to know about heavenly husbands and wives, fathers and mothers, children, etc.

Edited December 28, 2012 by CV75

[Senator]

I will say uncategorically that the LDS worhip the Father and the Son and none else.

This LDS secretly worships my Heavenly Mother as well.

oh, crap, now it's not a secret

[Saints Alive]

I'd say technically we worship the godhead even though we may not specifically mention the HG in prayers. I believe there was a break away group the included HM in the godhead.

[Deborah]

I have my own theory about heavenly "Mother." Mainly that we don't all have the same heavenly mother. Theory only, nothing doctrinal but it makes sense to me.

[Senator]

I'd say technically we worship the godhead even though we may not specifically mention the HG in prayers. I believe there was a break away group the included HM in the godhead.

The Holy Ghost is mentioned in several of our covnentual prayers.

Edited December 28, 2012 by Senator

[Saints Alive]

I have my own theory about heavenly "Mother." Mainly that we don't all have the same heavenly mother. Theory only, nothing doctrinal but it makes sense to me.

That would explain why little is know, if there are more than one they may all have different personalities, etc.

The Holy Ghost is mentioned in several of our covnentual prayers.

That is tru I was thinking more about our everyday prayers. But good point.

[Sky]

I have my own theory about heavenly "Mother." Mainly that we don't all have the same heavenly mother. Theory only, nothing doctrinal but it makes sense to me.

Care to elaborate on this further? Are you saying that our Heavenly Father has more than one wife? (i.e. celestial polygamy)? As you can imagine, I and many others have a hard time accepting this. But there are men who are sealed to more than one wife, so I guess I could see how this might be possible.

[Tacenda]

That would explain why little is know, if there are more than one they may all have different personalities, etc.

That is tru I was thinking more about our everyday prayers. But good point.

This is where polygamy comes in. God and several wives. Makes perfect sense. This is why polygamy is Celestial marriage, but few will admit it aloud.