Poaching And Church Discipline?

[Hamba Tuhan]

doesn't poaching violate we believe in honoring and sustaining the law?

Yes, as does driving 115 km/h in a 110 zone, which is something I do nearly every time I go down to the temple.

As does entering or remaining in a country illegally, which is something Church leaders have specifically instructed us not to consider when it comes to issues of worthiness to hold a temple recommend or a calling.

Not all infractions of the law are equal, and not all of them are criminal. Which is why I asked about the your local context. Where I live, poaching is a criminal act and would be treated that way by Church leaders.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Hamba Tuhan

[Stargazer]

If you, and I am not planning on doing this whatsoever, poach out of season can you or should you get into trouble by the Church? if you were caught of course.

Church discipline would seem to depend upon whether the action is a sin in the eyes of the Lord, not the state. Adultery or fornication are not punishable any longer (for adults), at least in most Western countries, yet both can lead to excommunication. On the other hand, if you get a speeding ticket should you be disfellowshipped, or put on formal or informal probation by your bishop? Not hardly.

Poaching is not a sin, to the best of my knowledge. What is it, anyway? Whatever it was in olden times, In modern times poaching is to kill a game animal without being licensed, or perhaps out of season.

[Stargazer]

Does it make a difference if you poach in season? I know that prisoners are not allowed to take sacrament but I don't know if that is always because of church discipline. I think the answer is: it depends.

Poaching is the illegal taking of animals or plants. If it is in season but you're not licensed, or you've already taken your limit, or some other violation of the game laws where you live, then you're a poacher. So, bluebell, if the limit is five trout, and you've caught seven, you're a poacher. It's quite variable, depending upon circumstances.

As to prisoners not being allowed to partake of the sacrament, I don't believe that this is always strictly true. I have heard of one case where a man was convicted of a sexual offense, but nevertheless the priesthood brought the sacrament to him from time to time in prison -- because the stake presidency determined that he had been unjustly convicted, i.e. he was innocent, and so he was not only not excommunicated, he remained a member in good standing. I believe I heard about this here on this board -- I don't remember who brought it up.

And if there is any doubt about this receiving the sacrament while in jail, I don't suppose any of you here can name for me one of the most prominent inmates of the ironically named Liberty Jail? You think he perhaps might not have been worthy of the sacrament just because of his incarceration?

[bluebell]

Poaching is the illegal taking of animals or plants. If it is in season but you're not licensed, or you've already taken your limit, or some other violation of the game laws where you live, then you're a poacher. So, bluebell, if the limit is five trout, and you've caught seven, you're a poacher. It's quite variable, depending upon circumstances.

Not sure why this is addressed to me?

[Calm]

Probably this comment "I have no idea what level poaching is, so i couldn't even guess" led him to think you were looking for or at least needed some specifics about what poaching was.

[Stargazer]

Not sure why this is addressed to me?

Because you wrote:

Personally, i feel pretty harshly about poachers, unless it's to keep your family alive or something. Many poachers though are out for antlers/horns or just like the thrill of killing and leave the meat to rot either way. That's pretty low-life in my opinion.

I was just suggesting that poaching isn't necessarily as egregious as you were suggesting -- technically one is a poacher if one takes just one more fish than the limit allows, and perhaps you would not feel quite so harshly about that?

The other thing is, leaving the meat to rot is not necessarily against the law, as long as you've got a license. It would depend upon the jurisdiction. I know that in Washington state the game laws prohibit "wasting" of game, but when you look up the definition it doesn't say a word about shooting a deer and taking the antlers only, for example, and leaving the carcass. If you're licensed, and it doesn't say you can't do that, then it might not be kosher in some peoples' opinion to leave the carcass, but it isn't poaching, technically.

For one thing, it keeps the vultures fed. One way to look at it, anyway.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Stargazer

[Storm Rider]

I have always felt that the ideal was that I have the courage to live by God's laws and by the dictates of living a righteous life regardless of what man's law is. We learn, we earn, we demonstrate our integrity when there is a conflict between doing what we know is right and what others say or do and claim that their actions are proper, correct, and right. It matters little what the law of the land is when it comes to poaching or any other behavior; what does your heart tell you? Each time we choose contrary to the influence of the Spirit we become more callous, less capable of hearing the Spirit and open ourselves to spiritual danger unnecessarily.

[treeface]

Poaching is not a sin, to the best of my knowledge. What is it, anyway? Whatever it was in olden times, In modern times poaching is to kill a game animal without being licensed, or perhaps out of season.

You can have a license and it can be hunting season and you're still poaching if you're hunting where you're not supposed to. I used to live on a fairly large piece of forested land, and part of the routine was responding to poachers. So I spent many an hour poacher-hunting, sometimes solo, sometimes with backup, sometimes as backup. Those we caught, we turned over to the sheriff. Some of them had long criminal histories. Poacher hunting was kinda dicey because everyone involved on both sides had loaded guns in their hands. We chose our words and actions carefully.

[bluebell]

Probably this comment "I have no idea what level poaching is, so i couldn't even guess" led him to think you were looking for or at least needed some specifics about what poaching was.

Ha, he misunderstood me then. I know what poaching is, i don't know what it's designated under the law-if it's a misdemeanor or a felony (probably depends on how much poaching has taken place).

[bluebell]

Because you wrote:

I was just suggesting that poaching isn't necessarily as egregious as you were suggesting -- technically one is a poacher if one takes just one more fish than the limit allows, and perhaps you would not feel quite so harshly about that?

Nope, still feel pretty harshly about that. Unless you need the food to keep from starving, it's still demonstrates an egotistical person who has no regard for the health of the resource they are using, or the rights of anyone else.

The other thing is, leaving the meat to rot is not necessarily against the law, as long as you've got a license. It would depend upon the jurisdiction. I know that in Washington state the game laws prohibit "wasting" of game, but when you look up the definition it doesn't say a word about shooting a deer and taking the antlers only, for example, and leaving the carcass. If you're licensed, and it doesn't say you can't do that, then it might not be kosher in some peoples' opinion to leave the carcass, but it isn't poaching, technically.

If someone is mentally capable to the point where they should be allowed to hunt, then they shouldn't need someone to outline what 'wasting game' is. It seems pretty obvious. If that's confusing for them, then they need to back slowly away from the gun and find a new hobby.

All laws i've ever seen (which is certainly not all of them) prohibit the wasting of game. Some meat must be taken (usually from the hindquarters at least). This interpretation has always been taught in hunter's safety classes (something a person has to take in order to get a liscense in most states i believe) so it's seems unlikely that a person could be dumb enough to think it's o.k. to kill an animal for a trophy and leave the body to rot.

For one thing, it keeps the vultures fed. One way to look at it, anyway.

The lame and sick keep the vultures fed. That's what vultures are designed to eat and they don't go hungry. Scavengers never do.

Killing and feeding the most genetically sound and healthy of the herd to vultures on purpose also demonstrates a person's lack of brain cells.

[bluebell]

Poaching is not a sin, to the best of my knowledge. What is it, anyway? Whatever it was in olden times, In modern times poaching is to kill a game animal without being licensed, or perhaps out of season.

Finally stopped being lazy and looked it up. In some states and under certain conditions (such as in Ohio, where if you are convicted of it three times) it's actually a felony. Do you believe it's a sin under those conditions or is it possible to be a felon and serve jail time without sin? (just wondering your opinion on it).

And for anyone in the know, is committing a felony automatically cause for church discipline?

[CV75]

I was taught that during the Millennium, we wouldn't be killing for our food anyway, so there wouldn't be much point to poaching.

Good point--it would be nice if it turns out that way; has my vote! That would leave the killing to animal sacrifices, which would make those for false religions real bad poaching!

[Stargazer]

You can have a license and it can be hunting season and you're still poaching if you're hunting where you're not supposed to.

I do believe I said that somewhere in this thread.

I used to live on a fairly large piece of forested land, and part of the routine was responding to poachers. So I spent many an hour poacher-hunting, sometimes solo, sometimes with backup, sometimes as backup. Those we caught, we turned over to the sheriff. Some of them had long criminal histories. Poacher hunting was kinda dicey because everyone involved on both sides had loaded guns in their hands. We chose our words and actions carefully.

Well, that certainly sounds like fun.

[Stargazer]

Nope, still feel pretty harshly about that. Unless you need the food to keep from starving, it's still demonstrates an egotistical person who has no regard for the health of the resource they are using, or the rights of anyone else.

Oh, agreed.

If someone is mentally capable to the point where they should be allowed to hunt, then they shouldn't need someone to outline what 'wasting game' is. It seems pretty obvious. If that's confusing for them, then they need to back slowly away from the gun and find a new hobby. \

I was simply reflecting on a state hunting law. It is apparently NOT illegal to shoot a deer for its antlers and leave the carcass. I am not saying that this is morally neutral, but it IS legal, apparently. I looked all over the Washington state game regulations booklet and could not find this proscribed.

All laws i've ever seen (which is certainly not all of them) prohibit the wasting of game. Some meat must be taken (usually from the hindquarters at least). This interpretation has always been taught in hunter's safety classes (something a person has to take in order to get a liscense in most states i believe) so it's seems unlikely that a person could be dumb enough to think it's o.k. to kill an animal for a trophy and leave the body to rot.

Taking the trophy antlers and leaving the rest is apparently not illegal, I repeat. If some meat must be taken, e.g. just the hindquarters, this is still wastage, IMHO.

The lame and sick keep the vultures fed. That's what vultures are designed to eat and they don't go hungry. Scavengers never do.

Killing and feeding the most genetically sound and healthy of the herd to vultures on purpose also demonstrates a person's lack of brain cells.

I was being sarcastically ironic, not serious. Although again, the vultures will not object. In fact, they probably won't be the first at the carcass in any case, since they are most likely to respond to the rotten meat smell. Bears and mountain lions will probably be there first.

[Stargazer]

Finally stopped being lazy and looked it up. In some states and under certain conditions (such as in Ohio, where if you are convicted of it three times) it's actually a felony. Do you believe it's a sin under those conditions or is it possible to be a felon and serve jail time without sin? (just wondering your opinion on it).

And for anyone in the know, is committing a felony automatically cause for church discipline?

I don't know if a game violation that is a felony is a cause for Church discipline, or not. I suspect not, but I could be wrong. As I recall from a reading of the Handbook some time in the past, a finding of guilty in a temporal court is not automatic grounds for church discipline.

[Buzzard]

In a previous professional life, I arrested people for a living, though I was not a policeman. One day I asked my bishop if the crimes I was arresting people for-primarily theft, both petty (misdemeanor) and grand (felony), needed to be confessed in all cases to ones bishop. He replied in the affirmative. A few months later, we stopped a young lady of about 14 for taking some small items, can't remember even what after all these years. I saw a "For the Strength of Youth" pamphlet in her purse. When we had a moment with just us two in the room, I informed her that as a member, she needed to resolve this with her bishop. Her eyes got very, very, wide.

FWIW, if petty theft has to be confessed to proper priesthood authority, poaching certainly needs to be. Also, IMHO, while speeding tickets and the like don't need such confession, serious traffic violations such as reckless driving or DUI do need to be.

[DavidB]

The discussion of late caused me to think of JST Gen 9

10 But, the blood of all flesh which I have given you for meat, shall be shed upon the ground, which taketh life thereof, and the blood ye shall not eat.

11 And surely, blood shall not be shed, only for meat, to save your lives; and the blood of every beast will I require at your hands.

If blood shall not be shed, save - for purpose of this discussion - for meat, then it would appear God disapproves of poaching.

[bluebell]

I was simply reflecting on a state hunting law. It is apparently NOT illegal to shoot a deer for its antlers and leave the carcass. I am not saying that this is morally neutral, but it IS legal, apparently. I looked all over the Washington state game regulations booklet and could not find this proscribed.

It does appear to be illegal in Washington state:

77.15.170

(1) A person is guilty of waste of fish and wildlife if:

(a) The person kills, takes, or possesses fish, shellfish, or wildlife having a value of two hundred fifty dollars or more or wildlife classified as big game; and

(b) The person recklessly allows such fish, shellfish, or wildlife to be wasted.

Not that it really matters, but since you were looking for the information, i just thought i'd post it for you. It looks like it's a misdemeanor(sp?)