Prophet From The Seed Of Joseph To Come

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

In 2 Nephi, Lehi begins several dissertations.in 2 Nephi 3, he addresses his last-born in the wilderness; Joseph.

"And now, behold, my son Joseph, after this manner did my father of old [Joseph of Egypt] prophesy. Wherefore, because of

this covenant thou art blessed; for thy seed shall not be destroyed, for they shall hearken unto the words of the book. And

there shall rise up one mighty among them [Lehi's son Joseph's seed; of Manasseh] who shall do much good, both in word

and in deed, being an instrument in the hands of God, with exceeding faith, to work mighty wonders, and do that thing which

is great in the sight of God, unto the bringing to pass much restoration unto the house of Israel, and unto the seed of thy

brethren. And now, blessed art thou, Joseph. Behold, thou art little; wherefore hearken unto the words of thy brother, Nephi,

and it shall be done unto thee even according to the words which I have spoken. Remember the words of thy dying father.

Amen".

This person (Lehi --> Joseph his son --> Joseph in the future) is of the tribe of Manasseh.

Thanks,

Jim

One can be another's seed, or become another's seed. All who accept Christ become the "seed of Abraham, and hires according to the promise". When I was adopted by my step-father, I became his seed, and all who come after me, now numbering 11. Edited April 23, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[CASteinman]

Casman you have no credibility here.

Well, I have at least as much as you do and I can spell other people's names.

You are the one that says the broken off branch are the Gentiles

They are. Just as Joseph Smith was a Gentile -- and of the House of Israel (two ways).

and you are the one that says the 3 men are talking about Samuel the Lamanite with no refs.

It was you who gave no refs. I merely responded to your unsourced assumption -- and incidentally, I notice you never appropriately responded with any sort of cogent reply -- just insults.

Tell me how the Gentiles are the broken off branch and not Joseph?

Joseph is also one.

Edited April 23, 2013 by CASteinman

[Okrahomer]

So who is the seed of Joseph of old? Who is the descendant of Joseph of old? Joseph Smith? Show me where JS himself claims to be from Israel even Ephraim?

I appreciate your conviction on this point, but I cannot agree. For me it is clear that the Prophet (Joseph Smith Jr.) is indeed the "choice Seer" referred to in 2 Nephi; however, your questions above are intriguing with respect to how Joseph Smith Jr. regarded himself. It seems the Prophet would have to have been singularly impressed by the prophetic pronouncements of no less than 2 patriarchal blessings, one from Oliver Cowdery and one from his own father (Joseph Smith Sr.):

Oliver Cowdery http://www.yorgalily...ssing-1835.html:

"9. Thus shall he be honored of the Lord, and thus shall it be recorded of him, that the generation to come may bless his name, in Israel, saying, "The Lord make thee as Joseph the Seer, who was of the house of Ephraim the brother of Manasseh:

10. "The Lord do thee good, and bring peace and blessings among thy house as he brought them upon the house of Joseph the Seer, who was raised up of a choice vine from the stem of Jacob through the root of Joseph, even that Joseph who was separated from his brethren;"

11. For like Joseph of old shall he be; he shall save the just from desolation by the wise counsel of the Almighty;"

Joseph Smith Sr. http://user.xmission...about/patb1.htm:

"I bless thee with the blessings of thy fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and even the blessings of thy father Joseph, the son of Jacob. Behold, he looked after his posterity in the last days, when they should be scattered and driven by the Gentiles, and wept before the Lord: he sought diligently to know from whence the son should come who should bring forth the word of the Lord, by which they might be enlightened, and brought back to the true fold, and his eyes beheld thee, my son: his heart rejoiced and his soul was satisfied, and he said, As my blessings are to extend to the utmost bounds of the everlasting hills, as my father's blessing prevailed above the blessings of his progentor, and as my branches are to run over the wall, and my seed are to inherit the choice land whereon the Zion of God shall stand in the last days, from among my seed, scattered with the Gentiles, shall a choice Seer arise whose bowles shall be as a fountain of truth,...Thus spake my father Joseph. Therefore, my son, I know for a surety that those things will be fulfilled, and I confirm upon thee all these blessings."

Edited April 23, 2013 by Okrahomer

[theplains]

One can be another's seed, or become another's seed. All who accept Christ become the "seed of Abraham, and hires according to the promise". When I was adopted by my step-father, I became his seed, and all who come after me, now numbering 11.

It appears you are interpreting the word "seed" in a symbolic/spiritual way instead of

lineal descent.

In that passage that I quoted, why is the author flipping between the seed of Lehi, the

seed of Nephi, and the seed of Joseph if this is all "symbolic/spiritual"? Why not put it

all under the banner of the seed of Christ or the seed of Abraham?

Thanks,

Jim

[CASteinman]

It appears you are interpreting the word "seed" in a symbolic/spiritual way instead of

lineal descent.

Doesn't really matter does it? Your concern is not centered in "seed".

[brightpath]

Okrahomer, This is what I am talking about regarding JS. He himself never claimed to be an Ephraimite. Nothing came from his own lips regarding being from Israel. Others claimed it for him through blessings. When JS was translating the BofM he never said that he was the prophet in 2 Nephi 3, 3 Nephi 21, and the JST of Gen 50:24-38. Why? Because he knew these scriptures were not referencing him. Especially the JST of Gen 50! Out of all the scriptures in the bible why did God have JS focus on this chapter? Once JS did translate it why did he not say this was him and that he fulfilled this prophecy. This is the key to the whole argument here. Joseph Smith himself never claimed these scriptures were about him! He knew it was prophesying of another to come.

Edited April 24, 2013 by brightpath

[Avatar4321]

Check the title page of the BofM. " To come by way of the Gentile". The BofM was brought forth by Joseph Smith a Gentile adopted into the House of Israel. Joseph Smith was not from the literal seed. Verse 24 of 2 Neph 3 gives us a clue to the entire chapter. In this verse Lehi is reviewing with his son Joseph the prophecy of Joseph in Egypt. The key word is reviewing! it is not a separate prophecy. Lehi is telling his son a mighty one will arise from the seed of Joseph in the last days.

How do you honestly still claim this despite having people point out multiple times with citations that Joseph was an Ephraimite?

Edited April 24, 2013 by Avatar4321

[brightpath]

Casman you amaze me! You cannot have it both ways. You cannot be a Gentile and the literal seed of Israel. The Gentiles are not a broken off branch. The church does not teach this. I think this is your own speculation that is wrong. Explain to me how JS can be an Israelite and a Gentile. Explain to me also the phrase in the title page of the BofM that says the BofM " shall come by way if the Gentile".

[brightpath]

Avatar! You show me and reference where Joseph Smith himself stated from his own mouth that he was an Ephraimite. Check the above post to Okrahomer and explain to me why JS himself never claimed to be the choice Seer when he had plenty of chances to do so.

[brightpath]

PaPa, yes it is true when one is converted they become the seed of Abraham but some are the literal seed and some are through adoption. When you were adopted by your stepdad you became part if his family but not his literal seed. Example; if a white family adopts a Native American child that child becomes part if that family but not the literal seed of that family. The child is Native and the family is white.

[Avatar4321]

Avatar! You show me and reference where Joseph Smith himself stated from his own mouth that he was an Ephraimite. Check the above post to Okrahomer and explain to me why JS himself never claimed to be the choice Seer when he had plenty of chances to do so.

So Joseph never said he was a seer now?

[brightpath]

Avatar, Of course JS was a prophet/seer but not the one in the 3 scriptures I cited. Other people claimed it for him. You find me any quote from his own lips that he said he was the choice seer prophesied in these scriptures. JS had many opportunities to claim he was the choice seer in these scriptures but didn't and why? Because he knew it was not him but another to come. So explain to me Avatar why JS himself didn't come out and say he fulfilled these scriptures when he translated them.

Edited April 24, 2013 by brightpath

[Vance]

Casman you have no credibility here.

WOW!!!! Just WOW!!!!

[Vance]

You cannot be a Gentile and the literal seed of Israel.

Right. Because a word can only have one universal meaning to all possible groups using it. Context and culture can have no possible influence upon its usage or meaning. Got it! Edited to add, Nephi used "Gentile" as a description of any person or group that was apart from the "Jew, because I mean them from whence I came." or in other words, any person or group away from the land of Jerusalem. See 2 Nephi 33:7-10,14. So you are presenting a false dichotomy. Edited April 24, 2013 by Vance

[CASteinman]

Casman you amaze me! You cannot have it both ways. You cannot be a Gentile and the literal seed of Israel. The Gentiles are not a broken off branch. The church does not teach this. I think this is your own speculation that is wrong. Explain to me how JS can be an Israelite and a Gentile. Explain to me also the phrase in the title page of the BofM that says the BofM " shall come by way if the Gentile".

Sometimes I amaze myself too!

I would like a reference that shows that when the Ten Tribes went North -- that at least some of them did not become integrated with and identified as "Gentiles".

I would have to do some research to see whether this is something the Church teaches or not -- but I am pretty sure that Apostles and Prophets have taught it.

[Avatar4321]

Avatar, Of course JS was a prophet/seer but not the one in the 3 scriptures I cited. Other people claimed it for him. You find me any quote from his own lips that he said he was the choice seer prophesied in these scriptures. JS had many opportunities to claim he was the choice seer in these scriptures but didn't and why? Because he knew it was not him but another to come. So explain to me Avatar why JS himself didn't come out and say he fulfilled these scriptures when he translated them.

Because he followed the admonition of Christ:

If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. (John 5:31)

There is a reason God calls witnesses for something

[Avatar4321]

Right. Because a word can only have one universal meaning to all possible groups using it. Context and culture can have no possible influence upon its usage or meaning. Got it! Edited to add, Nephi used "Gentile" as a description of any person or group that was apart from the "Jew, because I mean them from whence I came." or in other words, any person or group away from the land of Jerusalem. See 2 Nephi 33:7-10,14. So you are presenting a false dichotomy.

Excellent point. Considering Jews are from the Tribe of Judah, specifically in Nephis context those that live around Jerusalem where he came from, the scriptures indicate that Nephi included the lost tribes in the term Gentile.

Edited April 24, 2013 by Avatar4321

[CASteinman]

Avatar! You show me and reference where Joseph Smith himself stated from his own mouth that he was an Ephraimite. Check the above post to Okrahomer and explain to me why JS himself never claimed to be the choice Seer when he had plenty of chances to do so.

This is like the people who assert that Jesus didn't clearly claim to be God or the Son of God.

Edited April 24, 2013 by CASteinman

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

It appears you are interpreting the word "seed" in a symbolic/spiritual way instead of

lineal descent.

In that passage that I quoted, why is the author flipping between the seed of Lehi, the

seed of Nephi, and the seed of Joseph if this is all "symbolic/spiritual"? Why not put it

all under the banner of the seed of Christ or the seed of Abraham?

Thanks,

Jim

I just made a statement, not trying to make a doctrine on the issue. But either way the the Prophecy is true. Always thinking what our critics are thinking.

[brightpath]

Right. Because a word can only have one universal meaning to all possible groups using it. Context and culture can have no possible influence upon its usage or meaning. Got it! Edited to add, Nephi used "Gentile" as a description of any person or group that was apart from the "Jew, because I mean them from whence I came." or in other words, any person or group away from the land of Jerusalem. See 2 Nephi 33:7-10,14. So you are presenting a false dichotomy.

Read the title page of the BorM. God through Moroni sets it perfectly. Moroni identifies 3 groups of people on earth. The Lamanites(Joseph), the Jews(Judah), and the Gentiles(the rest of the world). He does not identify the lost 10 tribes in the title page because God has separated them from us so their blood would remain pure and not tainted with Gentile blood. Are you saying God is wrong? Are you saying Moroni is wrong?. The title page also states the BofM shall come by way of the Gentile(Joseph Smith). This proves that the prophets from Joseph Smith on down to Thomas S. Monson are Gentiles that are adopted into the House of Israel. They are not the literal seed. The only people that are the literal seed are Lamanites(Native Americans) and Jews(Judah). So if you are not a Jew or Native you are a Gentile.

8 I have charity for the ^aJew(Judah)—I say Jew, because I mean them(Jews) from whence I came.

Nephi stated this because he came from Jerusalem the land of the tribe of Judah.

Edited April 25, 2013 by brightpath

[brightpath]

I'm still waiting for a quote from Joseph Smith himself stating he fulfilled 2 Nephi 3, 3 Nephi 21, and Gen 50:24-38 JST as the choice seer. Another clue to 2 Nephi 3. The choice seer was compared to Moses and what did Moses do? He delivered Israel out of captivity. Moses was the deliverer! Joseph Smith never did this. Brigham Young fit this description more than JS. The choice seer will deliver Israel unto salvation(2 Nephi 3:15).

Edited April 25, 2013 by brightpath

[CASteinman]

Read the title page of the BorM. God through Moroni sets it perfectly. Moroni identifies 3 groups of people on earth. The Lamanites(Joseph), the Jews(Judah), and the Gentiles(the rest of the world).

Not quite.

The Lamanites(Manassah), the Jews(Judah), and the Gentiles(the rest of the world).

He does not identify the lost 10 tribes in the title page because God has separated them from us so their blood would remain pure and not tainted with Gentile blood.

Speculative imaginary scenario that is not exactly in harmony with the full import of the scriptures and with historical evidence.

Are you saying God is wrong? Are you saying Moroni is wrong?.

Disagreeing with you is not the same thing as saying God is wrong.

The title page also states the BofM shall come by way of the Gentile(Joseph Smith). This proves that the prophets from Joseph Smith on down to Thomas S. Monson are Gentiles that are adopted into the House of Israel.

No, it does not prove that. The Gentiles include remnants of Israel.

They are not the literal seed. The only people that are the literal seed are Lamanites(Native Americans) and Jews(Judah). So if you are not a Jew or Native you are a Gentile.

This is not per the teachings of the Prophets and Apostles. It is your own private doctrine.

Here for example is how Joseph Fielding Smith described it:

"Latter-day Saints pride themselves because they are of Israel; but they are also of the Gentiles. We are the descendants of those members of the house of Israel who were scattered among the Gentiles to be a blessing to the Gentile nations and make them of the blood of Israel through the gospel. The scattering of Israel among the nations was not intended merely as a punishment, but as the leaven which would leaven the Gentile nations and make them of the blood of Abraham, according to the promises given to Abraham. The Book of Mormon came by way of the Prophet Joseph Smith, a descendant of Ephraim, yet it came "by way of the Gentile," and in the time of the Gentiles."

[CASteinman]

I'm still waiting for a quote from Joseph Smith himself stating he fulfilled 2 Nephi 3, 3 Nephi 21, and Gen 50:24-38 JST as the choice seer.

There are a lot of things Joseph Smith never said about himself. Do you realize that by making this a point of evidence you are committing the logical error of argument from silence?

[Avatar4321]

Read the title page of the BorM. God through Moroni sets it perfectly. Moroni identifies 3 groups of people on earth. The Lamanites(Joseph), the Jews(Judah), and the Gentiles(the rest of the world). He does not identify the lost 10 tribes in the title page because God has separated them from us so their blood would remain pure and not tainted with Gentile blood. Are you saying God is wrong? Are you saying Moroni is wrong?. The title page also states the BofM shall come by way of the Gentile(Joseph Smith). This proves that the prophets from Joseph Smith on down to Thomas S. Monson are Gentiles that are adopted into the House of Israel. They are not the literal seed. The only people that are the literal seed are Lamanites(Native Americans) and Jews(Judah). So if you are not a Jew or Native you are a Gentile.

8 I have charity for the ^aJew(Judah)—I say Jew, because I mean them(Jews) from whence I came.

Nephi stated this because he came from Jerusalem the land of the tribe of Judah.

You seem to have this idea that Joseph Smith was not of the Seed of Abraham and likewise that none of us are either. That we are only adopted in. But that's completely contradictory to what the D&C says several times:

Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them. (D&C 132:30)

I don't know how clearer the Lord could be there.

In calling the Saints to form Zion's Camp, the Lord stated this to Joseph and the Saints:

For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.(D&C 103:17)

The revelations are clear. Not to mention those that weren't cannonized. You've seen where the lineage of Joseph has been declared. I know what my lineage declares. Israel was scattered to the four corners of the earth and you think they didn't comingle with the Gentiles? Despite what the scriptures and countless Prophets & Apostles have clearly stated?

If you want to believe that Joseph of old was prophecying of another seer besides Joseph Smith, that's fine. I don't think that's going jeopardize your Eternal salvation. But let's not deny that there are countless members of the House of Israel among us, not through adoption, but who are the Literal seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

[Avatar4321]

Disagreeing with you is not the same thing as saying God is wrong.

Pretty much sums up my position as well.