Prophet From The Seed Of Joseph To Come

[brightpath]

CAS, The BofM is the stick of Joseph! The BofM is a record of the Lamanites forefathers. The Lamanites are from the tribe of Joseph through Manasseh. In 3 Nephi 21 Christ refers to the Nephites and Lamanites as the remnant of Jacob to take it a step further. So the title page is correct! There are 3 groups of people in the world.

This is not per the teachings of the Prophets and Apostles. It is your own private doctrine.

Here for example is how Joseph Fielding Smith described it:

"Latter-day Saints pride themselves because they are of Israel; but they are also of the Gentiles. We are the descendants of those members of the house of Israel who were scattered among the Gentiles to be a blessing to the Gentile nations and make them of the blood of Israel through the gospel. The scattering of Israel among the nations was not intended merely as a punishment, but as the leaven which would leaven the Gentile nations and make them of the blood of Abraham, according to the promises given to Abraham. The Book of Mormon came by way of the Prophet Joseph Smith, a descendant of Ephraim, yet it came "by way of the Gentile," and in the time of the Gentiles."

JFS statement is confusing and is not in line with what the title page says. " To come by way of the Gentile " means JS was a Gentile. If JS was an Ephraimite the the title page would have said "To come by way of Ephraim. Does not make sense. Joseph Smith was a Gentile that was adopted into Israel.

So Casman you are a Gentile that is adopted into Israel. You are not the literal seed of Israel. The scattering of Israel was a punishment and mixing with them was part of the punishment.

Please tell me how the Gentiles are a broken off branch? I want to know. This contradicts church doctrine.

Please tell me how you can be both the literal seed of Israel and a Gentile?

[brightpath]

There are a lot of things Joseph Smith never said about himself. Do you realize that by making this a point of evidence you are committing the logical error of argument from silence?

So when JS translated Gen 50:24-38 he wanted to keep this a secret to himself. When he translated 2 Nephi 3 and 3 Nephi 21 he also wanted to keep this a secret.

[brightpath]

Pretty much sums up my position as well.

When you deny what the title page says then you pretty much deny what Moroni and God say because they wrote it, not me.

[CASteinman]

So the title page is correct! There are 3 groups of people in the world.

The title page is correct. Your interpretation is wrong.

JFS statement is confusing

To you. Not to most members. You have allowed your mind to become clouded with strange doctrines.

and is not in line with what the title page says. " To come by way of the Gentile " means JS was a Gentile. If JS was an Ephraimite the the title page would have said "To come by way of Ephraim. Does not make sense. Joseph Smith was a Gentile that was adopted into Israel.

Here is what Brigham Young said:

"The Book of Mormon came to Ephraim, for Joseph Smith was a pure Ephraimite, and the Book of Mormon was revealed to him"

You will note that at this point it is two prophets that you feel are wrong. If you like I will add more to the pile.

So Casman you are a Gentile that is adopted into Israel. You are not the literal seed of Israel. The scattering of Israel was a punishment and mixing with them was part of the punishment.

You said "mixing them"? You are finally admitting that they are mixed into the gentile nations?

[CASteinman]

So when JS translated Gen 50:24-38 he wanted to keep this a secret to himself. When he translated 2 Nephi 3 and 3 Nephi 21 he also wanted to keep this a secret.

Not talking about something is not the same thing as it being secret.

[CASteinman]

When you deny what the title page says then you pretty much deny what Moroni and God say because they wrote it, not me.

The problem is not the title page. Its your interpretation of it.

[CASteinman]

Please tell me how the Gentiles are a broken off branch? I want to know. This contradicts church doctrine.

Actually it doesn't. Its because of the mixing of Israel into the Gentile Nations. Those Broken Branches are Israel dissolved into the Gentile Nations. Which it appears you already accept.

Please tell me how you can be both the literal seed of Israel and a Gentile?

By being descended from one of the Tribes of Israel, having lost your identity as an Israelite and being culturally assimilated into the Gentile Nations.

Gathering these people out of the World is part of the mission of the Church in the Last Days -- the Gathering of Israel from among all nations and the four corners of the world.

[brightpath]

Casman, everything you said is false. Yes there was mixing that took place to an extent with the Jews and Lamanites. But not to the degree you think. The 10 tribes are separated from us to keep their blood pure. You keep on quoting other prophets about JS lineage but you fail to provide quotes from JS himself regarding his lineage. You won't find any either because he knew he was a Gentile adopted into Israel. There are 4 keys to identifying true Israel or the literal seed if Israel.

1) They have their own record.

2) They have or have had their own prophets

3) Christ appeared to them.

4) They have been scattered and smitten and hated by all nations.

Casman what tribe are you from?

[Vance]

Casman, everything you said is false.

Whoa there turbo. Just because you read a scripture and totally misunderstood it and tried to peddle your misinterpretation to us (but we aren't buying it) doesn't mean those that disagree with you are promoting falsehoods. You are free to continue to look forward to another prophet to arise and disregard those that we have now if you like. Just don't get all huffy when we don't follow you. Ok!

[Vance]

Read the title page of the BorM. God through Moroni sets it perfectly.

So are you saying that Nephi got it wrong? Oh, wait, that's right, you think that there is only one possible usage/definition. So, maybe it was Moroni that got it wrong and not Nephi. So, when we read a prophesy recorded by Nephi, should we use Nephi's definition or Moroni's?

Moroni identifies 3 groups of people on earth. The Lamanites(Joseph) (Mannasseh), the Jews(Judah), and the Gentiles(the rest of the world). He does not identify the lost 10 tribes in the title page because God has separated them from us (the rest of the house of Israel) so their blood would remain pure and not tainted with Gentile blood. Are you saying God is wrong?

No, just you.

Are you saying Moroni is wrong?.

No, just you.

8 I have charity for the ^aJew(Judah)—I say Jew, because I mean them(Jews) from whence I came.

Nephi stated this because he came from Jerusalem the land of the tribe of Judah.

Yes, but not all Jews were in the land of Jerusalem, and not all in the land of Jerusalem were of the tribe of Judah. The Nephites came from the land of Jerusalem, yet I know of no instance where Nephi called himself a Jew. So, it seems rather clear that Nephi uses the term "Jew" to refer to the socio-religious culture of the people of the land of Jerusalem rather than to the tribe of Judah, and the term Gentile to refer to all others.

[CASteinman]

The 10 tribes are separated from us to keep their blood pure.

There is no reason to think that they were separated to keep their blood pure. There is plenty of reason to think that this did not happen.

You keep on quoting other prophets about JS lineage but you fail to provide quotes from JS himself regarding his lineage.

Because he never talked about it. You also fail to provide a quote of Joseph Smith calling himself a gentile. That he never talked about these things does not mean he has no lineage. Nor does it mean that what the other prophets said is false.

But why do you insist that if I agree with the other prophets and you disagree -- that means I must be saying false things and you must be saying true things? Is it because you reject other prophets?

You won't find any either because he knew he was a Gentile adopted into Israel.

If he knew this, then why can't you quote him saying so -- to use your standards?

There are 4 keys to identifying true Israel or the literal seed if Israel.

1) They have their own record.

2) They have or have had their own prophets

3) Christ appeared to them.

4) They have been scattered and smitten and hated by all nations.

This is an invalid list of criteria. Nowhere do any prophets or scriptures say that if these things are not present, that the people are not the literal seed of Israel.

[Avatar4321]

When you deny what the title page says then you pretty much deny what Moroni and God say because they wrote it, not me.

Again, I havent denied what the title page says. I've denied your questionable interpretation of it.

According to the Title page, since the 10 tribes were Lamanites or Jews, they must be Gentiles. You are denying that the Tribes are among the Gentiles.

You're also still denying that Joseph Smith was a literal descedent of Abraham despite the scripture in the D&C saying that he was. And what the Lord has revealed to countless others in the Church.

So please stop denying what God has said.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Avatar4321

[Avatar4321]

Casman, everything you said is false. Yes there was mixing that took place to an extent with the Jews and Lamanites. But not to the degree you think. The 10 tribes are separated from us to keep their blood pure. You keep on quoting other prophets about JS lineage but you fail to provide quotes from JS himself regarding his lineage. You won't find any either because he knew he was a Gentile adopted into Israel. There are 4 keys to identifying true Israel or the literal seed if Israel.

1) They have their own record.

2) They have or have had their own prophets

3) Christ appeared to them.

4) They have been scattered and smitten and hated by all nations.

Casman what tribe are you from?

1) Latter-day Saints have their own record

2) Latter-day Saints have their own prophets

3) Christ has appeared to the latter day saints

4) Latter-day Saints have been scattered and smitten in the past

Since Joseph Smith is a latter-day saint, according to your own criteria, which is questionable at best, he must be a literal Israelite.

Though, I am sure Moses and Joshua would be surprised that they weren't leading the Children of Israel since they were all in one body when Moses and Joshua lead them. And they werent scattered, smiten and hated by all nations, instead they kicked all the other nations butts. And they never saw Christ. It must be weird to not have been the Children of Israel until Christ came to their descendents in the meridian of time.

The Jews havent had prophets for millenia. I would hardly deny that they are of the house of Israel. Rather they are merely in a state of Apostasy.

[brightpath]

When was Joseph Smith transformed to a pure Ephraimite? When he was born in 1805 the restored gospel wasn't here on earth. He restored it. So was it when he was baptized? Or was it when he received his patriarchal blessing from his father? You guys claim there was so much mixing going on with Israel throughout the years so how can Joseph Smith be a pure Ephraimite? if he was then that means his parents were, both grandparents were and his lineage remained pure all the way back to Ephraim himself. Does that make logical sense? I think not. Please explain to me how Joseph Smith became a pure Ephraimite when he was born as a Gentile into a Gentile family.

The literal seed of Israel have their own records and visitation of Jesus Christ. The Lamanites(Joseph) have the BofM(stick of Joseph) and Christ appeared to their ancestors in America. The Jews(Judah) have their own record the Bible(stick of Judah) and Jesus ministered among them. The lost 10 tribes have their own records and their own visitation of christ(see 3 Nephi 16) and will come forth in the last days when the New Jerusalem is built( 3 Nephi 21 and DC 132). These are the signs of true Israel. I assume you guys claim to be Ephraim through your patriarchal blessings. If so then where are your records? Where is your record of Jesus Christ appearing unto you?

[CASteinman]

When was Joseph Smith transformed to a pure Ephraimite?

I don't think he was transformed.

You guys claim there was so much mixing going on with Israel throughout the years so how can Joseph Smith be a pure Ephraimite?

I don't know. You would have to ask Brigham Young.

if he was then that means his parents were, both grandparents were and his lineage remained pure all the way back to Ephraim himself.

Maybe. Maybe not. You are assuming the word "pure" means "without mixture". But it might not mean that.

Does that make logical sense? I think not.

Your not thinking so is no bad mark. You have not shown yourself to be brilliant in logic. It is possible that someone could in fact have Ephramite ancestors all the way back. It may not even be particularly unlikely in some cases.

Please explain to me how Joseph Smith became a pure Ephraimite when he was born as a Gentile into a Gentile family.

He did not become it ... he was it. And it is possible because the Ephraimites have become Gentiles.

The literal seed of Israel have their own records and visitation of Jesus Christ.

We have already covered your imaginary scenarios on this.

The lost 10 tribes have their own records and their own visitation of christ(see 3 Nephi 16)

We have yet to see what this means. Your emphatic insistence that it can only be one way is simply not attested to by scripture or history.

Its ok with me if you do not want to believe the Prophets and Apostles but you should not imagine your desire to rebel on these matters is enticing to others.

[brightpath]

Pure means pure Casman without mixture. Look up the definition of pure! You claim he was a pure Ephraimite so this means he cannot have any Gentile blood! You failed to answer my question. When did he become a pure Ephraimite? He was born aGentile into a Gentile family with no restored gospel yet so when did he get transformed? He must of went through a transformation because according to you he went from being a Gentile to a pure Ephraimite. Again did this transformation take place at his patriarchal blessing like all the other church members of this church? Was it at his baptism? Was it when God appeared to him? When?

[CASteinman]

Pure means pure Casman without mixture. Look up the definition of pure!

Speaking of looking things up, you should consider reviewing what "black and white" thinking is a symptom of.

Pure had several definitions. Including: "Free from moral defilement; without spot; not sullied or tarnished; incorrupt; undebased by moral turpitude; holy."

You claim he was a pure Ephraimite

Not me. Brigham Young.

so this means he cannot have any Gentile blood!

This is false. Since Ephraimites became Gentiles.

You failed to answer my question. When did he become a pure Ephraimite?

No I answered that.

according to you he went from being a Gentile to a pure Ephraimite.

That is false. I never claimed such a thing. Never hinted at it. Never thought it. Never implied it. Do not believe it.

[brightpath]

You can twist the word pure anyway you want if it makes you feel better. You cannot answer how he became a pure Ephraimite so you put it off on Brigham Young? How did he know? Or was it one of the many off the wall comments he made along the lines of blood atonement, blacks and the priesthood etc...

[CASteinman]

You can twist the word pure anyway you want if it makes you feel better.

Its not a matter of twisting. You told me to look up the word. I did and gave you a definition you did not like. Even though you don't like it, that does not mean that it is wrong or that it is twisting.

You cannot answer how he became a pure Ephraimite so you put it off on Brigham Young?

Not exactly. Brigham Young is the one who said it and I cannot read his mind. That is a bit different than what you have accused me of.

How did he know?

You would have to ask him.

Or was it one of the many off the wall comments he made along the lines of blood atonement, blacks and the priesthood etc...

You mean when he sometimes spoke the way you are speaking about this doctrine of yours?

[brightpath]

This is false. Since Ephraimites became Gentiles.

So Ephraimites became Gentiles then when they are baptized and receive their patriarchal blessing through the restored gospel they become Ephraimites again! That's quite a transformation Casman. Is that what happened to you?

[CASteinman]

So Ephraimites became Gentiles then when they are baptized and receive their patriarchal blessing through the restored gospel they become Ephraimites again!

They were always Ephraimites also.

For example, you can be American and you can also be Jewish. Weirdly you can even be Atheist and also be Jewish.

Its a big world out there!

Edited April 26, 2013 by CASteinman

[brightpath]

Put it off on Brigham Young again? I wish I could ask him but he is gone. So what is your explanation of this since we cannot ask brother Brigham. Take a stab at it Casman. And there is a big difference when I speak and Brigham Young speaks. BY was prophet of God I am just a lowly member. So what he says goes. This statement by BY was one of the many off the wall comments he made but thank you comparing me to BY.

[brightpath]

They were always Ephraimites also.

Really? You can't have it both ways. It's either one or the other. You must be a flip flopper then. This logic is bizarre to say the least!

For example, you can be American and you can also be Jewish. Weirdly you can even be Atheist and also be

Its a big world out there!

[CASteinman]

Put it off on Brigham Young again?

He IS the one who said it.

So what is your explanation of this since we cannot ask brother Brigham.

I have no explanation for it. It is what it is.

And there is a big difference when I speak and Brigham Young speaks. BY was prophet of God I am just a lowly member. So what he says goes. This statement by BY was one of the many off the wall comments he made but thank you comparing me to BY.

OK... so what he says goes? Goes away? Or Rules?

[brightpath]

He IS the one who said it.

So what he said goes! So i guess you still believe in blood atonement and blacks not receiving the priesthood.

I have no explanation for it. It is what it is

Because there is no explantion for something that is incorrect.

OK... so what he says goes? Goes away? Or Rules?

Just like your doctrine of Israel. It is bizarre to say the least. Church doctrine stated that the broken off branch is Lehi and you say it is the Gentiles. You also said that a Gentile can be an Israelite and an Israelite can be a Gentiles. Bizarre thinking. A Lamanite cannot be a Gentile and a Jew cannot be a Gentile. A Gentile cannot be a Lamanite or a Jew. So how can a Gentile be both like you claim?

Edited April 30, 2013 by brightpath