Prophet From The Seed Of Joseph To Come

[telnetd]

When he translated the BofM and got to 2 Nephi 3 and 3 Nephi 20 and 21 he again never claimed this was talking about himself. He had four opportunities to do so and he never did! Why? Because he knew these scriptures were not talking about him

Aparently this never reached the ranks of the authors who print the Book of Mormon

and create the website. See http://classic.scrip...s.org/en/2_ne/3.

The introductory notes say "Joseph in Egypt saw the Nephites in vision—He prophesied

of Joseph Smith, the latter-day seer". In verse 24, point a (the word "one") links to the

Topical Guide for Joseph Smith. I suspect the CES manual on the Book of Mormon may

teach the same.

Gail

[MormonMason]

I just read something interesting the other day in an old Church periodical that discussed a man who was known from the plains to the Rocky Mountains for his working of miracles among the native tribes. His name? Ephraim Hanks. Might as well claim it is him in verse 24 as anyone else.

But, give a man a verse and he thinks he can take a chapter. Problem is, the Book of Mormon describes in terms that are unmistakable--except for those with gospel hobbies--a person which only Joseph Smith fulfilled. It discusses the coming forth and writing of the Book of Mormon in the rest of the verses in that chapter, and we know that Joseph Smith was the man who brought it forth and caused it to be written. Case closed.

[telnetd]

Then the Book of Mormon would have used "from among them" if claiming genealogical derivation therefrom.

Joseph Smith was of the seed of Joseph in Egypt, however.

Hi,

You missed the point of Jim's post in #11. In verses 23/24, Lehi is speaking to his son

Joseph. He is not speaking about the Joseph of Egypt. "Wherefore, because of this

covenant thou [i.e.Lehi's son] art blessed; for thy seed [Lehi's son's seed] shall not be

destroyed, for they shall hearken unto the words of the book. And there shall rise up

one mighty among them [among Lehi's descendants], Verse 25 reconfirms that these

words pertain to the son Joseph [of Lehi], not the Joseph of Jacob.

I think a previous poster provided a wiki document where the "one mighty" is Edward

Partridge. http://en.wikipedia....ghty_and_Strong

Gail

[MormonMason]

Hi,

You missed the point of Jim's post in #11. In verses 23/24, Lehi is speaking to his son

Joseph. He is not speaking about the Joseph of Egypt. "Wherefore, because of this

covenant thou [i.e.Lehi's son] art blessed; for thy seed [Lehi's son's seed] shall not be

destroyed, for they shall hearken unto the words of the book. And there shall rise up

one mighty among them [among Lehi's descendants], Verse 25 reconfirms that these

words pertain to the son Joseph [of Lehi], not the Joseph of Jacob.

I think a previous poster provided a wiki document where the "one mighty" is Edward

Partridge. http://en.wikipedia....ghty_and_Strong

Gail

The one mighty and strong in the Doctrine and Covenants was Edward Partridge. But, he was not the one discussed in the Book of Mormon.

But, as to the verse in question in the Book of Mormon, if Lehi was teaching using a style of interpretation in discussion of a prophecy (later to become known as Pesher), that verse may well have been a quote from Joseph in Egypt, even if it was not stated to be such. The surrounding context makes it quite clear that the rest of the text was speaking of someone not of the Lamanites but also descended from Joseph in Egypt. Not everything that was prophesied by Joseph has been written in our current Bibles or even in the JST.

I have come to the conclusion that the words quoted may well have been those of Joseph of Egypt but their position in the text of verse 24 is the cause of some confusion. Notice also the provisional nature of the statement of verse 25. Did Joseph do as instructed? Did Lehi's Joseph's line remain faithful or did they go the way of most of the Nephites? Consider also the statement of verse 24 compared with verse 15. Both passages mention "the thing" that was to bring about salvation and "that thing" that was to bring about much restoration. What was "that thing" which would accomplish that? The coming forth and writing of the Book of Mormon spoken of in the preceding verses.

There is also the matter of punctuation to consider. There are several places where the placement of a full colon could radically alter the meaning of the passage in question. The punctuation was added by the printer not Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. There is nothing sure about this passage at all--for the moment.

Edited October 1, 2012 by MormonMason

[brightpath]

I just read something interesting the other day in an old Church periodical that discussed a man who was known from the plains to the Rocky Mountains for his working of miracles among the native tribes. His name? Ephraim Hanks. Might as well claim it is him in verse 24 as anyone else.

But, give a man a verse and he thinks he can take a chapter. Problem is, the Book of Mormon describes in terms that are unmistakable--except for those with gospel hobbies--a person which only Joseph Smith fulfilled. It discusses the coming forth and writing of the Book of Mormon in the rest of the verses in that chapter, and we know that Joseph Smith was the man who brought it forth and caused it to be written. Case closed.

You forgot the main points of my post! Ephraim Hanks was a Gentile he was not from the seed of Lehi! Verse 24 is where Lehi is telling Joseph his son one will arise from his seed(manasseh). Hanks or Partridge don't fit the prophecy

[MormonMason]

You forgot the main points of my post! Ephraim Hanks was a Gentile he was not from the seed of Lehi! Verse 24 is where Lehi is telling Joseph his son one will arise from his seed(manasseh). Hanks or Partridge don't fit the prophecy

I have forgotten nothing. See post 29 above, particularly the statements about pesher, punctuation, and lack of surety on the interpretation of this verse. The rest of the chapter besides this lone verse is clear enough to know that the rest of the chapter refers to Joseph Smith and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, and to none else. You are attempting to back-interpret an entire chapter by a single verse and that interpretation is hermeneutically unsound. It is the epitome of eisegesis.

[Cobalt-70]

The one mighty and strong in the Doctrine and Covenants was Edward Partridge.....

I don't think that's very plausible. Edward Partridge was never mighty or strong. Nor does Partridge seem like the description in Isaiah 28:2, which describes the "mighty and strong one" as being like "a tempest of hail and a destroying storm," and like a "flood of mighty waters overflowing," who "shall cast [the hail, wind, and rain] down to the earth with the hand."

Nor does it fit Joseph Smith's prophecy, which describes the One Mighty as "holding the sceptre of power in his hand, clothed with light for covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth...."

[Cobalt-70]

But, as to the verse in question in the Book of Mormon, if Lehi was teaching using a style of interpretation in discussion of a prophecy (later to become known as Pesher), that verse may well have been a quote from Joseph in Egypt, even if it was not stated to be such. The surrounding context makes it quite clear that the rest of the text was speaking of someone not of the Lamanites but also descended from Joseph in Egypt. Not everything that was prophesied by Joseph has been written in our current Bibles or even in the JST.

The chapter is very clear on who is saying what. It clearly prefaces all statements made by "the Lord," as well as all statements made by Joseph son of Jacob. Joseph could not have spoken the material in verses 23-24, because whoever is speaking it is telling the addressee that "thou art blessed; for thy seed shall not be destroyed." The words are obviously Lehi speaking to his son.

[Cobalt-70]

...Consider also the statement of verse 24 compared with verse 15. Both passages mention "the thing" that was to bring about salvation and "that thing" that was to bring about much restoration. What was "that thing" which would accomplish that? The coming forth and writing of the Book of Mormon spoken of in the preceding verses.

I don't think the reference to "that thing which is great in the sight of God" in verse 24 is an allusion to "the thing" referenced in verse 15. In verse 15, "the thing" refers to the Book of Mormon. In verse 24, by contrast, "that thing" is not a book--it is a work, something that is done by the mighty one. It makes sense that the "mighty one" would do much beyond that which the "choice seer" was capable of doing. The "choice seer" was commanded that he "shall do none other work" except bringing forth the Book of Mormon. (v. 8. ) This matches BC 4:2, in which God said that he gave Joseph Smith no other gift than to translate the Book of Mormon, and that he is to "pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift."

If (as Mormon doctrine held in 1829) Joseph Smith's gift was to end when he translated the Book of Mormon, it would make perfect sense that a Mighty One would come along after him to do mighty works that Joseph Smith was not permitted to do.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[brightpath]

Gen 50:24-38 and 3 Nephi 21

Point 1-Joseph Smith never claimed this prophesied of him. This is a big hint!

Point 2- Branch to be broken off. Lehi's seed( Lamanites). Joseph Smith is not from the broken off branch(Manasseh). Gen 50:25

Point 3-The BofM and gospel will already be here when He comes. Gen 50:30. JS restored the gospel it wasn't already here.

Point 4-This Seer will not die and will deliver Israel unto salvation. Gen 50:33. JS was killed and never delivered Israel unto salvation.

Point 5-The seer will cut off the unbelieving Gentiles and destroy them. 3 Nephi 21:11-21.

How can this be disputed!

[SamIam]

This person (Lehi --> Joseph his son --> Joseph in the future) is of the tribe of Manasseh.

You might consider putting in a bit more time into how lineage is determined by members of the House of Israel. It is the the same as how the Jews determine their lineage today.

It is also the same as children in an LDS temple sealing are aligned in the event of a temporal divorce where the wife remarries to another man but is not sealed to him but remains sealed to the original husband. If she should have children with the second husband, what is their sealing lineage?

It is also predicated upon the same principle as the Yibbum or levirate marriage.

Once you determine the correct methodology, you will of necessity have to reevaluate your assumption above.

[brightpath]

Thank you for addressing point 2! The church teaches JS was from Ephraim not Manasseh. Follow the lineage here, Joseph in Egypt>Manasseh>Lehi>lLamanites>Native Americans. Lehi was addressing his son Joseph that through their lineage(Manasseh) a Seer would rise up. When Jesus Christ visited America he reaffirmed this prophesy again in 3 Nephi 21. He is talking to the Nephites here and telling them that this seer will come from there lineage and deliver them unto salvation. The other 4 points of my post make it very clear that its not JS but another to come and deliver Israel.

[USU78]

I don't think that's very plausible. Edward Partridge was never mighty or strong. Nor does Partridge seem like the description in Isaiah 28:2, which describes the "mighty and strong one" as being like "a tempest of hail and a destroying storm," and like a "flood of mighty waters overflowing," who "shall cast [the hail, wind, and rain] down to the earth with the hand."

Nor does it fit Joseph Smith's prophecy, which describes the One Mighty as "holding the sceptre of power in his hand, clothed with light for covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth...."

It's the priesthood power that clothes him as bishop that makes him "mighty and strong." These speculations about a heavenly hit man make no sense in the context of JSJr promising the Missouri saints that somebody's coming to put their affairs in order.

[SamIam]

Thank you for addressing point 2! The church teaches JS was from Ephraim not Manasseh. Follow the lineage here, Joseph in Egypt>Manasseh>Lehi>lLamanites>Native Americans. Lehi was addressing his son Joseph that through their lineage(Manasseh) a Seer would rise up. When Jesus Christ visited America he reaffirmed this prophesy again in 3 Nephi 21. He is talking to the Nephites here and telling them that this seer will come from there lineage and deliver them unto salvation. The other 4 points of my post make it very clear that its not JS but another to come and deliver Israel.

I feel like I am reading a SNOPES review of some email thread. Is it True? Is it False? Is it partially true and partially false...

While aspects of what you say above are benign, the premise of lineage is still incorrect. Joseph Smith is rightly of Ephraim. While I am not agreeing with your premise that Joseph Smith is or is not a descendant of Lehi, if I was going to prove the claim either way, I would want to validate why Joseph's descent as an Ephraimite is the criteria for excluding him as the Seer prophesied. It is in fact that he is of Ephraim that is what could be used to confirm him as that Seer.

I gave you the four patterns above. You have not educated yourself about how these are united in one principle. I would just tell you but you seem pretty locked into a completely erroneous line of reasoning here and I think you will do better if you discover by your own efforts where you are making false assumptions and misinterpreting the implications of scripture. Otherwise my words may fall on deaf ears and you will continue to perpetrate your errors.

Answer this one question and it will get you started. How do the Jews define if a child of a mixed gentile / Jewish marriage is a Jew or a gentile? Once you answer that question it will point you in the right direction for why Joseph,to be a descendant of Lehi, would most likely have been of Ephraim based on the clues of the scriptures. Once you figure this out you should from there be able to adjust your conclusions.

Edited October 9, 2012 by SamIam

[Cobalt-70]

It's the priesthood power that clothes him as bishop that makes him "mighty and strong." These speculations about a heavenly hit man make no sense in the context of JSJr promising the Missouri saints that somebody's coming to put their affairs in order.

These are not speculations. These are how the One Mighty is described by Joseph Smith and in the bible. (And, arguably as we have been discussing, the Book of Mormon.) It does not make sense in the context of Edward Partridge, but it does make sense in Joseph Smith's New Jerusalem eschatology circa November 1832. The office of bishop was always just an administrative, managerial role. It was not a prophetic role. But by this time, the United Order of Enoch was not working well at all, either in Kirtland or in Zion. In Kirtland, Smith had been tarred and feathered by people who who were upset with how he was managing the church collective.

By November, Partridge was apparently not doing his job of managing the collective well in Zion, because people were complaining that they had not been receiving their inheritances according to the plan. Partridge, in fact, is more likely the "ark-steadier" referred to in the passage--who is explicitly not the One Mighty. The One Mighty is the one that would eventually set Zion in order as a millennial kingdom fit for the return of Christ.

Interestingly, the One Mighty revelation was given just a couple of weeks after the birth of Joseph Smith III. Smith had apparently been prophesying since at least 1828 that one of his sons would become a greater prophet than himself. Many years later, however, Joseph III denied any claim that he was the One Mighty.

[brightpath]

Avoiding again! Are you an active member of the church? If so then you have to accept that Lehi is from Manasseh and the Lamanites are from the same lineage. The church claims JS comes through the lineage of Ephraim. The only way he is from Manasseh is if he is part Native. Your question if a Jew marries a gentile. Then they are part Jew and part gentile. They are still partakers in the tribe of Judah but if they are baptized as members then it doesn't matter anyway because they become Israel again. Throw out point 2 about lineage and you still have 4 points to address. The seer to come will not die. The seer will destroy the unbelieving gentile and lead Israel unto salvation. JS never claimed to be this seer in these scriptures. When the seer comes the gospel and BofM will already be here. Hmmm

[SamIam]

Avoiding again! Are you an active member of the church? If so then you have to accept that Lehi is from Manasseh and the Lamanites are from the same lineage. The church claims JS comes through the lineage of Ephraim. The only way he is from Manasseh is if he is part Native. Your question if a Jew marries a gentile. Then they are part Jew and part gentile. They are still partakers in the tribe of Judah but if they are baptized as members then it doesn't matter anyway because they become Israel again. Throw out point 2 about lineage and you still have 4 points to address. The seer to come will not die. The seer will destroy the unbelieving gentile and lead Israel unto salvation. JS never claimed to be this seer in these scriptures. When the seer comes the gospel and BofM will already be here. Hmmm

I understand what Lehi's tribe is, the Book of Mormon states this very clearly. However, there is a reason that it states concerning Ishmael's tribal affiliation as well. Your need to understand why that is germane to this discussion is critical.

Perhaps, instead of guessing how the Jews and gentiles might settle the issue I provided, you might actually look it up. Since you have manifest a lack of desire to follow this effort to educate you twice already, I suspect there is little need in me making the effort further. When ... when you accomplish that simple request, we can go from there. Until then it looks like you may continue to have a very one sided discussion with yourself over the magnificent, but incorrect observations you have made.

[Thunderfire]

The church claims JS comes through the lineage of Ephraim. The only way he is from Manasseh is if he is part Native.

I find this whole line of thought fascinating! That the one mighty and strong must come through the lineage of Joseph. If this is the case, then this individual must be able to claim lineage in both Ephraim and Manasseh. Because only together do they become Joseph. The Book of Mormon speaks of the Gentile's being "adopted" into the House of Israel. So if they can be adopted in, then it is entirely possible for someone of Ephraim to be spiritually adopted into Manasseh or the other way around.

For some, tribal lineage in the House of Israel is a "spiritual condition" and things can happen that we are not yet aware of regarding how Ephraim and Manasseh can come together as Joseph in the prophesied coming of one who is mighty and strong. Anyway, just my thoughts...

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I don't care to speculate on lineage, but, in short, I recieved an experience recently where I was told to begin to fast and pray that "the Lord would begin to bring His servant out of his hiding place."

[brightpath]

Samlam,

You keep focusing on lineage! You need to get over it. This is where you and I differ. The other 4 points I bring up that you fail to address are more important. You say it's all connected when it is not. The fact is this Seer hypothetically could be from any race BUT it is what he does when he come. Fact 1 JS when translating Gen 50:24-38 never claimed this was prophecying of him. This is the key to the whiole arguement. Fact 2 when the Seer comes the BofM and the restored gospel will already be here. Fact 3 The Seer will be protected He will not die. JS died. Fact 4 The Seer will convince Israel who they are and deliver them unto salvation. JS never did this. Fact 5 The seer will cut off the unbelieving Gentile and destroy them. JS never did this either. You need to get off the lineage thing and look at the facts. Educate yourself!

[brightpath]

I don't care to speculate on lineage, but, in short, I recieved an experience recently where I was told to begin to fast and pray that "the Lord would begin to bring His servant out of his hiding place."

I'm glad of your experience because the Seer will be coming according to 2 Nephi 3, Gen 50:24-38, 3 Nephi 21 and 3 Nephi 20

[William Schryver]

I have read this thread with some interest. I acknowledge the relative difficulty in interpreting the meaning of 2 Nephi 3 and 3 Nephi 20-21. I believe these passages are clarified by the following passage in D&C 133:

6 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.

27 And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.

28 Their enemies shall become a prey unto them,

29 And in the barren deserts there shall come forth pools of living water; and the parched ground shall no longer be a thirsty land.

30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants.

31 And the boundaries of the everlasting hills shall tremble at their presence.

32 And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim.

33 And they shall be filled with songs of everlasting joy.

34 Behold, this is the blessing of the everlasting God upon the tribes of Israel, and the richer blessing upon the head of Ephraim and his fellows.

Having pondered these questions much over the course of my adult life, it has been my conclusion that the prophet mentioned in 2 Nephi 3:24 and 3 Nephi 21:9-10 is of the seed of Ephraim, and that the people implied in the passage "among them" are the same people mentioned in 3 Nephi 20:16 -- the "remnant of Jacob" who shall be among the Gentiles. I believe that this "remnant of Jacob" among the Gentiles is the seed of Joseph, both of Ephraim and Manasseh. But the "servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim" (D&C 133:32) constitutes the lineage that will produce the great prophet mentioned in all of these apparently related passages of scripture.

That said, I am open to greater light and knowledge on this topic. However, I don't believe that "greater light" can be had without additional revelation on the question.

Edited October 11, 2012 by William Schryver

[brightpath]

William,

D&C 133 is referring to what will happen after the New Jerusalem is built. If you read the sequence of events that will take place in 3 Nephi 21 Jesus Christ gives us signs to look out for. #1The coming forth of the BorM. #2 The Seer appears and does his mighty works. #3 Israel builds the New Jerusalem. #4 The 10 tribes come from the north. Now with respect to the Seer many people believe it is JS when it is not. It is a prophet that will come in the future. I present 5 facts in the previous post to show that this Seer is not JS.

[Batgirlsmom]

This is, indeed, a fascinating thread to read!

Being married to a Lamanite (Mexican) I happen to know relatives who are told in patriarchal blessings that they belong to BOTH the tribes of Ephraim and Manassah! Is that very common? To belong to two tribes? And have them both be of Joseph of Egypt?

[William Schryver]

William,

D&C 133 is referring to what will happen after the New Jerusalem is built.

I did not suggest otherwise. My point is that when the lost tribes come to Zion, it will be led by "the servants of the Lord, the children of Israel."

And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim.

Ephraim is designated the firstborn, and confirmed by covenant:

Genesis 48

13 And Joseph took them both, Ephraim in his right hand toward Israel’s left hand, and Manasseh in his left hand toward Israel’s right hand, and brought them near unto him.

14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim’s head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh’s head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.

15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day.

16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father’s hand, to remove it from Ephraim’s head unto Manasseh’s head.

18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

brightpath continues:

If you read the sequence of events that will take place in 3 Nephi 21 Jesus Christ gives us signs to look out for. #1The coming forth of the BorM. #2 The Seer appears and does his mighty works. #3 Israel builds the New Jerusalem. #4 The 10 tribes come from the north. Now with respect to the Seer many people believe it is JS when it is not. It is a prophet that will come in the future. I present 5 facts in the previous post to show that this Seer is not JS.

I understand what you are saying. I disagree that your interpretation is conclusive. It may be true that a mighty seer from the tribe of Manasseh will arise and thus fulfill the prophecies contained in 2 Nephi 3, and 3 Nephi 20-21. But I am not persuaded that this is a correct interpretation of those prophecies. Hence my statement that more revelation is necessary in order to understand these things in full.

My citation of the passage of D&C 133 was meant to underscore the fact that Ephraim is the firstborn, and that the children of Ephraim will continue to lead the Church and Kingdom until and after the restoration of Zion. Manasseh will join with Ephraim, and together they will establish the New Jerusalem upon this land. Zion shall not be removed out of her place. The New Jerusalem will be built upon the land Joseph Smith consecrated for that purpose.

3 Nephi 20

16 Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

17 Thy hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off.

18 And I will gather my people together as a man gathereth his sheaves into the floor.

19 For I will make my people with whom the Father hath covenanted, yea, I will make thy horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass. And thou shalt beat in pieces many people; and I will consecrate their gain unto the Lord, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth. And behold, I am he who doeth it.

20 And it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that the sword of my justice shall hang over them at that day; and except they repent it shall fall upon them, saith the Father, yea, even upon all the nations of the Gentiles.

21 And it shall come to pass that I will establish my people, O house of Israel.

22 And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem. And the powers of heaven shall be in the midst of this people; yea, even I will be in the midst of you.

Is it possible that a great prophet of Manasseh shall arise and bring forth new scripture? Absolutely. But Ephraim will continue to stand at the head. Thus, when the lost tribes return from the "north countries," they shall receive the blessings of the priesthood under the hands of the children of Ephraim, the servants of the Lord.