Prophet From The Seed Of Joseph To Come

[brightpath]

Joseph in Egypt, Isaiah, and Jesus Christ prophesied this man would appear in the last days. See 2 Nephi 3, 3 Nephi chapters 20 and 21.

[Alan]

It's Joseph Smith.

[Avatar4321]

Id love to add something but I have no clue where you're going with this thread.

[guerreiro9]

Joseph in Egypt, Isaiah, and Jesus Christ prophesied this man would appear in the last days. See 2 Nephi 3, 3 Nephi chapters 20 and 21.

Could you clarify your original post. Are you asking a question, or making a statement?

[MormonMason]

Id love to add something but I have no clue where you're going with this thread.

Having seen previous posts of this nature from brightpath, I assume he is going to give forth his reasons--yet again!--why Joseph Smith is not the person referenced by the scriptures he cites.

[Damien the Leper]

I would like to know why anyone would be the focal point of such "prophecies".

[brightpath]

Do you think it's Joseph Smith or another? If you read 3 Nephi 21 carefully there are some clues.

[MormonMason]

Only if you read and use a copy of the Book of Mormon that has been out of circulation for many years, namely, the Liverpool Edition, would you be forced by the footnotes into the idea that it could not have been Joseph Smith.

[theplains]

In 2 Nephi, Lehi begins several dissertations.in 2 Nephi 3, he addresses his last-born in the wilderness; Joseph.

"And now, behold, my son Joseph, after this manner did my father of old [Joseph of Egypt] prophesy. Wherefore, because of

this covenant thou art blessed; for thy seed shall not be destroyed, for they shall hearken unto the words of the book. And

there shall rise up one mighty among them [Lehi's son Joseph's seed; of Manasseh] who shall do much good, both in word

and in deed, being an instrument in the hands of God, with exceeding faith, to work mighty wonders, and do that thing which

is great in the sight of God, unto the bringing to pass much restoration unto the house of Israel, and unto the seed of thy

brethren. And now, blessed art thou, Joseph. Behold, thou art little; wherefore hearken unto the words of thy brother, Nephi,

and it shall be done unto thee even according to the words which I have spoken. Remember the words of thy dying father.

Amen".

This person (Lehi --> Joseph his son --> Joseph in the future) is of the tribe of Manasseh.

Thanks,

Jim

[MormonMason]

Notice that the scripture says "among them," not "from among them"? Big difference.

[theplains]

Notice that the scripture says "among them," not "from among them"? Big difference.

"Among them" is a reference to "thy seed" (Joseph's seed) - i.e. from among Joseph's seed.

Jim

[MormonMason]

Then the Book of Mormon would have used "from among them" if claiming genealogical derivation therefrom.

Joseph Smith was of the seed of Joseph in Egypt, however.

Edited September 26, 2012 by MormonMason

[Cobalt-70]

In 2 Nephi, Lehi begins several dissertations.in 2 Nephi 3, he addresses his last-born in the wilderness; Joseph.

"And now, behold, my son Joseph, after this manner did my father of old [Joseph of Egypt] prophesy. Wherefore, because of

this covenant thou art blessed; for thy seed shall not be destroyed, for they shall hearken unto the words of the book. And

there shall rise up one mighty among them [Lehi's son Joseph's seed; of Manasseh] who shall do much good, both in word

and in deed, being an instrument in the hands of God, with exceeding faith, to work mighty wonders, and do that thing which

is great in the sight of God, unto the bringing to pass much restoration unto the house of Israel, and unto the seed of thy

brethren. And now, blessed art thou, Joseph. Behold, thou art little; wherefore hearken unto the words of thy brother, Nephi,

and it shall be done unto thee even according to the words which I have spoken. Remember the words of thy dying father.

Amen".

This person (Lehi --> Joseph his son --> Joseph in the future) is of the tribe of Manasseh.

Without really looking at 2 Nephi 3:24 closely, I had always assumed it was still referring to Joseph Smith, like the rest of 2 Nephi 3. But I think you have a point that this is referring to a separate prophet, who is a descendant of the Book of Mormon Joseph. He was "one mighty among" the descendants of the Book of Mormon Joseph, not the biblical Joseph. Maybe this is a precursor to Smith's 1832 One Mighty and Strong prophecy (D&C 85:7). If so, then the One Mighty and Strong could not have been Edward Partridge, as Joseph F. Smith and his counselors hypothesized in 1905.

[ERayR]

From post #9.

This person (Lehi --> Joseph his son --> Joseph in the future) is of the tribe of Manasseh.

Some time back there was a poster (Hagoth7) I believe it was who put forth the proposition that Nephite blood was transplanted to Europe and was probably among the ancestors of Joseph Smith. I was quite impressed with his premise and evidences. His information would surely tie up that loose end.

[MormonMason]

Without really looking at 2 Nephi 3:24 closely, I had always assumed it was still referring to Joseph Smith, like the rest of 2 Nephi 3. But I think you have a point that this is referring to a separate prophet, who is a descendant of the Book of Mormon Joseph. He was "one mighty among" the descendants of the Book of Mormon Joseph, not the biblical Joseph. Maybe this is a precursor to Smith's 1832 One Mighty and Strong prophecy (D&C 85:7). If so, then the One Mighty and Strong could not have been Edward Partridge, as Joseph F. Smith and his counselors hypothesized in 1905.

I suggest that you read verses 18-21 a little more carefully. It is pretty clearly describing the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. The person who caused to be written that text was none other than Joseph Smith. See also the preceding verses 7-11.

Edited September 26, 2012 by MormonMason

[Cobalt-70]

Then the Book of Mormon would have used "from among them" if claiming genealogical derivation therefrom.

I don't think that is a fair reading. This "one mighty" prophet would "rise up...among them" ("them" being the surviving descendants of the Book of Mormon Joseph, who survived despite the dying-out of the Nephites.) There is no evidence that Joseph Smith believed he himself "rose up" among these people, whoever they are. The most straightforward reading is that the "one mighty" was one of the Josephites.

[MormonMason]

I don't think that is a fair reading. This "one mighty" prophet would "rise up...among them" ("them" being the surviving descendants of the Book of Mormon Joseph, who survived despite the dying-out of the Nephites.) There is no evidence that Joseph Smith believed he himself "rose up" among these people, whoever they are. The most straightforward reading is that the "one mighty" was one of the Josephites.

See my suggestion above.

[Cobalt-70]

I suggest that you read verses 18-21 a little more carefully. It is pretty clearly describing the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. The person who caused to be written that text was none other than Joseph Smith.

I totally agree with you as to verses 18-21, but then beginning in verse 22 it appears Lehi is talking about another prophet. In all the prior verses, the "choice seer" (Joseph Smith) is described as a descendant of the biblical Joseph. The "one mighty" appears to be different from the "choice seer." In verses 1-21, Lehi is talking about the covenant and blessing of the biblical Joseph in which a "choice seer" would arise as a descendant of the biblical Joseph. In verses 22-25, Lehi is saying that the Book of Mormon Joseph is also blessed, in that "one mighty" from among his seed, too would rise up and become a great prophet.

In effect, Lehi is telling Joseph, "The biblical Joseph, your namesake, received a great blessing because one of his descendants would become a 'choice seer,' to translate the Book of Mormon and you too, my son, will receive a great blessing because "one mighty" among your descendants will rise up and do another great work to restore the house of Israel."

Edited September 26, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[MormonMason]

I totally agree with you as to verses 18-21, but then beginning in verse 22 it appears Lehi is talking about another prophet. In all the prior verses, the "choice seer" (Joseph Smith) is described as a descendant of the biblical Joseph. The "one mighty" appears to be different from the "choice seer." In verses 1-21, Lehi is talking about the covenant and blessing of the biblical Joseph in which a "choice seer" would arise as a descendant of the biblical Joseph. In verses 22-25, Lehi is saying that the Book of Mormon Joseph is also blessed, in that "one mighty" from among his seed, too would rise up and become a great prophet.

In effect, Lehi is telling Joseph, "The biblical Joseph, your namesake, received a great blessing because one of his descendants would become a 'choice seer,' to translate the Book of Mormon and you too, my son, will receive a great blessing because "one mighty" among your descendants will rise up and do another great work to restore the house of Israel."

I suppose that is one possible reading for that specific verse. However, have you ever read the original manuscript reading of Doctrine and Covenants 30:6? If not, have you read the Book of Commandments chapter 32? Pay especial attention to verses 4-5. Notice that the Lamanites are referred to as Peter Whitmer's brethren.

One cannot make hard distinctions on this matter, as some would have us do, but one can note the use of certain phrases in the Book of Mormon and how they are used. When the Book of Mormon speaks of things taking place within a group it is different than the words describing things that have an origin-point from within a group. When the Book of Mormon speaks of something coming from an origin-point, it uses the phrase "from among them." You can see an example of that kind of usage elsewhere in the Book of Mormon, such as at 3 Nephi 16:10. Joseph Smith also worked directly with those who came to him to hear the message of the Book of Mormon.

Shortly after this, you will see either brightpath or plains make the suggestion that several clear prophecies regarding Joseph Smith refer rather to the future Indian prophet they postulate from this lone verse just discussed. Watch for it. They will do it as they have done before, years ago.

[Cobalt-70]

I suppose that is one possible reading for that specific verse. However, have you ever read the original manuscript reading of Doctrine and Covenants 30:6? If not, have you read the Book of Commandments chapter 32? Pay especial attention to verses 4-5. Notice that the Lamanites are referred to as Peter Whitmer's brethren.

And Oliver Cowdery is referred to as Peter Whitmer's "brother" and Joseph Smith is described as the "brother" of Oliver Cowdery. The passage doesn't mean that Peter Whitmer was a Lamanite.

One cannot make hard distinctions on this matter, as some would have us do, but one can note the use of certain phrases in the Book of Mormon and how they are used. When the Book of Mormon speaks of things taking place within a group it is different than the words describing things that have an origin-point from within a group. When the Book of Mormon speaks of something coming from an origin-point, it uses the phrase "from among them." You can see an example of that kind of usage elsewhere in the Book of Mormon, such as at 3 Nephi 16:10. Joseph Smith also worked directly with those who came to him to hear the message of the Book of Mormon.

3 Nephi 16:10 uses "from among them" in the sense that the gospel was taken away from their midst. It is not a comparable use of the phrase. If you omitted the word "from," the verse would have exactly the opposite meaning: it would mean that God would bring his gospel "among them," rather than "from among them."

Better comparisons would be Ether 11:15: "there arose a mighty man among them in iniquity," or 3 Ne. 3:19: "this Gidgiddoni was a great prophet among them," or Mosiah 11:20: "there was a man among them whose name was Abinadi," or Alma 12:20: "there was one Antionah, who was a chief ruler among them."

Shortly after this, you will see either brightpath or plains make the suggestion that several clear prophecies regarding Joseph Smith refer rather to the future Indian prophet they postulate from this lone verse just discussed. Watch for it. They will do it as they have done before, years ago.

For at least the "One Mighty and Strong" prophecy (which is well documented and accepted by all Mormons and Mormon fundamentalists), there is an obvious consonance with the "one mighty" language in the Book of Mormon. Other than that, I don't think there is anything else authoritative about this person who was to "set in order the house of God."

[MormonMason]

And Oliver Cowdery is referred to as Peter Whitmer's "brother" and Joseph Smith is described as the "brother" of Oliver Cowdery. The passage doesn't mean that Peter Whitmer was a Lamanite.

And, nowhere did I say that it means that Peter Whitmer was a Lamanite. Obviously, you have missed the point. I do not know how else at the moment I can help you see that point.

3 Nephi 16:10 uses "from among them" in the sense that the gospel was taken away from their midst. It is not a comparable use of the phrase. If you omitted the word "from," the verse would have exactly the opposite meaning: it would mean that God would bring his gospel "among them," rather than "from among them."

Better comparisons would be Ether 11:15: "there arose a mighty man among them in iniquity," or 3 Ne. 3:19: "this Gidgiddoni was a great prophet among them," or Mosiah 11:20: "there was a man among them whose name was Abinadi," or Alma 12:20: "there was one Antionah, who was a chief ruler among them."

I'll have to cogitate on this a little further.

For at least the "One Mighty and Strong" prophecy (which is well documented and accepted by all Mormons and Mormon fundamentalists), there is an obvious consonance with the "one mighty" language in the Book of Mormon. Other than that, I don't think there is anything else authoritative about this person who was to "set in order the house of God."

Is it so obvious as to meaning and connection? Many have tried to place all sorts of interpretations upon this "one mighty and strong" other than the most straightforward based upon the context of the time frame. It is no longer a prophecy, in other words. It is past tense to us but was prophecy at the time of Joseph Smith before the greater amount of work was done on gathering the saints to Zion. If I recall correctly, President Joseph Fielding Smith and others held a similar view to mine.

[hagoth7]

Some time back there was a poster (Hagoth7) I believe it was who put forth the proposition that Nephite blood was transplanted to Europe and was probably among the ancestors of Joseph Smith. I was quite impressed with his premise and evidences. His information would surely tie up that loose end.

There is evidence that suggests Hagoth's largest ship sailed north into the Gulf of Mexico, and ended up in northern Europe. Something as simple as the measurements we use to make bread today align with known Nephite measurements, and we inherited those measurements from the same region of Europe where Hagoth is said to have arrived. The suggestion is that Joseph Smith was simply a descendant of Lehi's son Joseph.

[brightpath]

Some things to consider about 2 Nephi 3. This chapter is basically Genesis 50 in the Bible or the Joseph Smith translation of chapter 50 versus 24-38. Now let's think for a moment on why the Lord would have Joseph Smith focus on this chapter. Out of all the chapters in the Bible this chapter was selected by God to be translated a little more clearly by Joseph Smith. Now after Joseph Smith translated this chapter he never said this was talking about himself! When he translated the BofM and got to 2 Nephi 3 and 3 Nephi 20 and 21 he again never claimed this was talking about himself. He had four opportunities to do so and he never did! Why? Because he knew these scriptures were not talking about him. Now back to Gen 50, in verse 29 Joseph in Egypt compares the seer to Moses. What did Moses do? He delivered Israel from bondage. The seer to come will deliver the remnant of Joseph from darkness and captivity unto freedom. Joseph Smith never did this. In verse 30 it says the gospel will already be established in the last days when he comes. Joseph Smith brought about the gospel it was not established already. The verse also says that this seer will convinced them(the remnant of Joseph). Joseph Smith never did this. Verse 33 the Lord will protect this seer and he wil not die.Joseph Smith was killed. This seer will lead Israel unto salvation in the last days. Joseph Smith never did this. Now let's go back to 2 Nephi 3 verse 24. In this verse Lehi is recapping the prophecy of Joseph in Egypt and telling his son Joseph that one will rise up mighty among them. Joseph Smith was not from the tribe of Manasseh as Lehi and is son Joseph were. So this clearly is not talking about JS. One other clue to consider is in 3 Nephi 21 Jesus Christ stated that this seer will cut off and destroy the unbelieving Gentiles in this land. Joseph Smith never did this either. So we need to look for another that is coming. He who hath ears let him here.

[brightpath]

There is evidence that suggests Hagoth's largest ship sailed north into the Gulf of Mexico, and ended up in northern Europe. Something as simple as the measurements we use to make bread today align with known Nephite measurements, and we inherited those measurements from the same region of Europe where Hagoth is said to have arrived. The suggestion is that Joseph Smith was simply a descendant of Lehi's son Joseph.

How is this possible when the Polynesians claim Hagoth as their grandfather.

[hagoth7]

How is this possible when the Polynesians claim Hagoth as their grandfather.

Easy. Polynesia isn't north of anywhere significant. His largest ship went north.

But he built more than one ship. See Alma 63.

Edited September 28, 2012 by hagoth7