Ron Beron Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 Without giving any credence to the obvious partisan nature of this discussion I am wondering if there is something unethical for Bro. Reid of Nevada to stand up in the Senate and accuse a fellow Mormon, Bro. Romney, of lying about his tax returns? Is this something that can be devisive in our church and if true something that be left to the authorities?
zerinus Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 Without giving any credence to the obvious partisan nature of this discussion I am wondering if there is something unethical for Bro. Reid of Nevada to stand up in the Senate and accuse a fellow Mormon, Bro. Romney, of lying about his tax returns? Is this something that can be devisive in our church and if true something that be left to the authorities?If it is true that he has lied (I don't know if it is or not); and if it is true that those seeking public office should not lie to gain advantage; then I would say yes. It is in the national interest that such matters should be exposed. 1
thesometimesaint Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 Ron Beron:Such is politics, but there are only two groups of people that can answer that question. the IRS, and the Romney's. The first one won't for legal reasons and the last one won't because it would just give his critics more ammunition.
Storm Rider Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 It is most comical when one politician accuses another of lying. When this occurs I always see in my mind a pot calling a kettle black. It is unfortunate that the two people involved are LDS, but the last time I checked LDS were still very much human and very capable of wallowing in the slime of this world. We each try to do our best and sometimes our best demonstrates all too amply our weaknesses. Reid is a good man that should look in the mirror more often before he goes attacking those on the other side of the political aisle. 1
Glenn101 Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 To me it is sad when political ideology becomes ones view of morality. Calling a person a liar without evidence to back up such an assertion is uncalled for.Glenn 2
thesometimesaint Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 Storm Rider:I have lots of issues with Sen. Reid, but being outspoken isn't one of them. He's as milk toast as they come. He's need a backbone replacement for a long time.
sdc999 Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 It's a good thing that Harry Reid is not the sitting bishop in Mitt's current ward. That would really make for some interesting news.
thesometimesaint Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 Maybe.My former Bishop was and is my Home Teacher even though he is no longer my Bishop. I've been in the same Ward for over 20 years, (I don't make any bones about my politics), OTOH I don't discuss it in church meetings either.
Kenngo1969 Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 (edited) Brother Reid didn't lie. He simply said, "The word is out ..." We don't know who put "the word ... out." (Really ... we don't.) Bro. Reid was simply passing along something he heard. (I'm not sure why we should give any credence to Bro. Reid's source, since there's no reason why anyone at Bain would know anything about Bro. Romney's personal tax returns (unless he likes to brag to his coworkers or partners, e.g., "Hey, I found some awesome tax shelters! They'll take your rate to zero ...") Edited September 23, 2012 by Kenngo1969
Storm Rider Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 I am always surprised when someone appears to criticize another for hiring a tax firm to do their taxes and they do it well. Everyone I know either works strenuously to use every tax deduction possible or they hire a firm to do the same thing. I don't know anyone that does not; not a single person. If anyone here has taken advantage of a tax deduction then begin first by throwing that rock at your glass house you live in.If the government was interested in removing every tax deduction they could. It would be a simple process; "Every citizen shall pay 35% of their total income in taxes; no deductions, no incentives, just a straight 35%. When we finally pay off the national debt, rebuilt our failing infrastructure, and pay every teacher $2 million dollars then we can re-institute our gargantuan tax policy. If anyone is committed to participate now; just stop taking any deductions from your tax bill. At that time, and only that time, can you smugly criticize another citizen for using tax deductions offered every citizen. 1
MormonMason Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 Reid is Obama's lapdog. Several pieces of jobs legislation sit languishing on Reid's desk because of calls received from Obama either to kill legislation or let it sit on the desk and never make it to the floor of the Senate for a vote.Obama and Reid won't let any jobs legislation pass if it does not allow for increased government spending. Likewise, the House won't pass anything that allows for increased debt spending. So, few pieces of legislation regarding jobs or the economy get passed. And we are worrying about Romney's tax returns and whether or not he is lying according to the rumor accounts that Reid mentions? Latter-day Saints should not be involved in gossip, either.
thesometimesaint Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 Storm Rider:That might be appealing if you make over $100,000 per year. However if you are in the middle class,or lower, which 4 months of the year are you not going to eat?
CV75 Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 Is this something that can be devisive in our church and if true something that be left to the authorities?by authorities, do you mean the IRS?
TAO Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 (edited) My problem is that we aren't supposed to spread what easily could be rumors, really =/. That kinda made me look down on Brother Reid's actions a bit. Edited September 23, 2012 by TAO 1
Sleeper Cell Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 (edited) Ron Beron:Such is politics, but there are only two groups of people that can answer that question. the IRS, and the Romney's. The first one won't for legal reasons and the last one won't because it would just give his critics more ammunition.If that is the case, how could Reid or Reid’s “source” (aka “the word on the street,” aka malicious gossip) possibly know whether Romney lied about his tax returns?The OP asked whether there was: “something unethical for Bro. Reid of Nevada to stand up in the Senate and accuse a fellow Mormon, Bro. Romney, of lying about his tax returns?”What is unethical is to publicly accuse someone of lying without having any evidence. It is a form of bearing false witness.“Such is politics” is no excuse for unethical behavior. ( I am not saying that this is your personal position, but it is a common rationalization). Furthermore, based on my experience as a “community activist” in small town politics, I have found that it is generally more effective to simply point out the contradictions between what someone says and the documented facts and let the public decide who, if anyone, is lying. Of course, the downside is that obtaining these facts can be very time consuming.BTW, why are many good LDS willing to accept “the word on the street”- type evidence when it comes to politics, but not willing to accept such evidence when it comes to the Church and its leaders? After all, “the word on the street” is that Joseph Smith and other early Church leaders did all sorts of terrible things. And what about “the word on the street” regarding LDS temple rituals, church finances, church disciplinary councils, etc,? Edited September 23, 2012 by Sleeper Cell
Nathair/|\ Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 I am always surprised when someone appears to criticize another for hiring a tax firm to do their taxes and they do it well. Everyone I know either works strenuously to use every tax deduction possible or they hire a firm to do the same thing. I don't know anyone that does not; not a single person. If anyone here has taken advantage of a tax deduction then begin first by throwing that rock at your glass house you live in.If the government was interested in removing every tax deduction they could. It would be a simple process; "Every citizen shall pay 35% of their total income in taxes; no deductions, no incentives, just a straight 35%. When we finally pay off the national debt, rebuilt our failing infrastructure, and pay every teacher $2 million dollars then we can re-institute our gargantuan tax policy.If anyone is committed to participate now; just stop taking any deductions from your tax bill. At that time, and only that time, can you smugly criticize another citizen for using tax deductions offered every citizen.Even King Noah only took 20%.
Sleeper Cell Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 To me it is sad when political ideology becomes ones view of morality.What is even sadder is that many of these people originally based their choice of political ideology on their view of morality.
Grundelwalken Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 I think the message Elder Holland gave in the latest CES Fireside might be appropriate for Bro. Reid to consider. He suggested that some members think it is alright to "check your religion at the door" when participating in some activities. While E Holland focused on athletics, it applies equally to the realm of politics. The unkind way Bro. Reid insinuates failings in another member is especially egregious. MW
cinepro Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 Harry Reid started by saying "The word is out...", but followed up with a declarative statement "Let him prove that he has paid taxes...because he hasn't." 1
thesometimesaint Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 Sleeper Cell:All's fair in war and politics, and anyone who conflates morality with politics is going to be disappointed. I've heard far worse things coming out of politicians mouths that give me even greater pause. Second Amendment Remedies anyone? At worst Mr. Reid's accusation is just gossip(It is malicious if it is untrue).Mr. Romney hasn't substantiated his claims either. Both offer no proof, and as a function of law(There is no rule prohibiting a Senator from saying anything on the Senate floor they like), and no proof is required to state an opinion there.As a Saint I discourage gossip and don't take part in it myself. If anyone wants to know what I believe it is a simple matter of just asking me. Bro. Reid doesn't have to answer to me. I'm not his Bishop, or stake President and as I don't live in Nevada I couldn't vote for him even IF I wanted too.I never said I accepted it. Mr. Romney isn't running to be my Bishop, and the Church sure doesn't require tax information form me for any position in the Church that I've held. While there is no law compelling a political candidate to reveal his personal tax information. Common practice is that they provide more than a couple of years worth of tax information. The power is with Mr. Romney to disprove the allegation. So far he has refuse to do so.
DavidB Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 The answer to the title is Yes.By way of example, BYU requires students - the vast majority being LDS, to report each other. Honesty is part of the Honor Code.Second the Bible and I believe the D&C talk about the minimum number of witnesses to accuse someone. Didn't Peter say to someone "thou hast lied unto God", the liar then straightway fell dead. There is nothing sinful or immoral in one LDS rightly pointing out another LDS persons lies or deceit.
DavidB Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 If anything devisive could come of Reid comments, or Romenys flip flopping comments, it is derision caused by those who doggedly cling to a mortal man for the vanity of there personal philosophical political causes. 1
The Nehor Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 Storm Rider:That might be appealing if you make over $100,000 per year. However if you are in the middle class,or lower, which 4 months of the year are you not going to eat?I would spread them out into 40 day periods for symbolism's sake.
ERayR Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 Ron Beron:Such is politics, but there are only two groups of people that can answer that question. the IRS, and the Romney's. The first one won't for legal reasons and the last one won't because it would just give his critics more ammunition.So you know what is on those tax returns? If not how can you be so sure there is any ammunition in there? Be careful what you are assuming.
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