Exorcism

[thesometimesaint]

How do LDS understand these scriptures?

And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. (Mark 3:22-27.)

And

And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. (Mark 9:38-39.)

And what do you make of this?

http://www.newadvent...then/06392b.htm

That for Gods' own purposes he allowed it.

[inquiringmind]

That for Gods' own purposes he allowed it.

I think what you mean is that for God's own purposes He backed up the name of His Son even when it was used by those who might not have technically had any real authority to use it.

That's the way I would read it too.

Thank you.

Edited May 31, 2013 by inquiringmind

[SamIam]

I think what you mean is that for God's own purposes He backed up the name of His Son even when it was used by those who might not have technically had any real authority to use it.

So how do LDS understand these scriptures?

And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. (Mark 9:38-39.)

There is a tendency to stop seeking understanding and tossing our hands into the air and then providing a non-affirmative guess as to why things are. In this instance, it is not that God honored the name of his Son though there was no authority to use it, that is simply too arbitrary and creates a condition where we really can’t trust God. Either he is consistent in how he operates or we simply cannot exercise faith because there is no dependable explanation for his behaviors. That can never be the case.

Thus let’s look at the verse again: The key is that “there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.”

What is that saying to us? Essentially, and consistent with other scripture if one does not have faith in Christ one cannot receive the benefits that are derived from having faith in Christ. Jesus recognizes that if they are being successful in casting out demons, this can only occur if they are true believers in his name. Thus they cannot speak evil of Christ because they revere and worship him. Christ is simply reading with knowledge and understanding that these people fulfill the necessary conditions to cast out Satan in his name with faith. The same thing we need to do if we are to know the ways of God so that we can have faith in his character, attributes, powers and authority.

This verse also points to another potentiality. There are conditions where the power that requires Satan to depart upon being commanded in the name of Jesus Christ, is not necessarily dependent on holding the priesthood. Some, by exercising their faith in Christ can cast Satan out simply by being true believers in Jesus Christ. This then defines the presence of adequate power for this circumstance is found in believing in Jesus Christ. This verse is inadequate to extrapolate much more than simply that and we have to leave open the fact that there are some conditions that must be coupled with priesthood authority and faith in Jesus Christ to be effective. However, there are dependable consistent rules and conditions that define the limitations of either and if one truly comes to know the ways of the Lord they can act with knowledge, faith and authority as required by the circumstance.

Edited May 31, 2013 by SamIam

[mfbukowski]

We do not perform them and do not believe such things happen today to my knowledge. As Joseph taught "Satan has no power over except that which we give him"...Christ freed us from be "acting upon" we are all free to "act for ourselves". I do not fear Satan, I hate and pity him at the same time...

In the temple we have a specific example of Satan being dismissed, essentially showing "how to do it".

I believe I have experienced that technique actually working.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Yes, and taken out of context and inserted into this discussion here, it gave the false impression that Joseph didn't believe in demonic possession, and that neither he or the early latter day saints believed any exorcisms were needed in their days.

You also seemed to imply that Christ put a total end to all demonic possession two thousand years ago.

Any such view is contrary to Catholic, Protestant, and Mormon doctrine, and I simply asked you to clarify yourself.

I'm not playing any games with you, and I didn't think you were trying to lie or deceive.

I thought you ignored my question, were perhaps trying to bury it, and were simply ignorant of the events that reportedly surrounded the June 1831 conference.

You sound angry to me.

I turned 54 last month, and I'm sorry if I offended you, but there was nothing personal in asking you to clarify your comments, and I'm not playing any games here.

Anyway, before you jumped in and said Mormons didn't believe in demonic possession, I asked everyone a question that relates to another topic heading someone else started here (having to do with whether the LDS Church is the only true church, and what that means.)

Here is my question.

You have been here long enough to know, I believe what I say. I have no idea that Joseph's comment was not in context to the thread title. If Satan has no power over us except that which we give him, then how could demons have such. When I posted it I was unaware of later comments. You know me well enough to know I would not as you said..."it gave the false impression"...so I am just lying by mistake. Sorry for being so stupid, I will try to live up to your standard in the future. But the post I am responding to right now makes it certain you only ask question you already know the answer too...a game of "got ya" But I have been guilty of it at times myself, so not worthy to judge. I have done it to other faiths, but God called me to repentance. I have gotten to the point I am even nice to CARMella, one of the most vile of anti-Mormons I have ever know...turns out she started being nice to me, so it seems it is true, you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Also as the Bible teaches, the best thing to do is to be kind to your enemies and it will heap hot coals upon their heads. I am required to love my enemies, so I do as I am commanded. Not calling you my enemy, but truly all my love. But please we have been talking too long, you know I would never seek to mislead you. Have a good night.

[inquiringmind]

I asked you if you were saying that Joseph didn't perform any exorcisms.

I didn't know the answer to that question, and I wasn't playing gotta.

You were the only one who could have known what you were saying.

If you were saying that he didn't perform any exorcisms it could have been because you were ignorant of the reports (as you say you were), or because you knew of them and didn't believe them (and only you would know that.)

Edited June 1, 2013 by inquiringmind

[inquiringmind]

There is a tendency to stop seeking understanding and tossing our hands into the air and then providing a non-affirmative guess as to why things are. In this instance, it is not that God honored the name of his Son though there was no authority to use it, that is simply too arbitrary and creates a condition where we really can’t trust God. Either he is consistent in how he operates or we simply cannot exercise faith because there is no dependable explanation for his behaviors. That can never be the case.

Thus let’s look at the verse again: The key is that “there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.”

What is that saying to us? Essentially, and consistent with other scripture if one does not have faith in Christ one cannot receive the benefits that are derived from having faith in Christ. Jesus recognizes that if they are being successful in casting out demons, this can only occur if they are true believers in his name. Thus they cannot speak evil of Christ because they revere and worship him. Christ is simply reading with knowledge and understanding that these people fulfill the necessary conditions to cast out Satan in his name with faith. The same thing we need to do if we are to know the ways of God so that we can have faith in his character, attributes, powers and authority.

This verse also points to another potentiality. There are conditions where the power that requires Satan to depart upon being commanded in the name of Jesus Christ, is not necessarily dependent on holding the priesthood. Some, by exercising their faith in Christ can cast Satan out simply by being true believers in Jesus Christ. This then defines the presence of adequate power for this circumstance is found in believing in Jesus Christ. This verse is inadequate to extrapolate much more than simply that and we have to leave open the fact that there are some conditions that must be coupled with priesthood authority and faith in Jesus Christ to be effective. However, there are dependable consistent rules and conditions that define the limitations of either and if one truly comes to know the ways of the Lord they can act with knowledge, faith and authority as required by the circumstance.

Thank you.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I asked you if you were saying that Joseph didn't perform any exorcisms.

I didn't know the answer to that question, and I wasn't playing gotta.

You were the only one who could have known what you were saying.

If you were saying that he didn't perform any exorcisms it could have been because you were ignorant of the reports (as you say you were), or because you knew of them and didn't believe them (and only you would know that.)

I have made four attempts now that I did not know until later comments...can't figure out how many times you want be to say I was mistaken. Would you like it to be in my sig line, so everyone who visits knows I did not know? Gotta go now a dear fiend of mine is having his funeral today...please let that be my pentane, and let others deal with the topic....I feel the need to respond to you because I don't want to be rude. So are we done...Please!

[neworder]

A recent podcast that many may find interesting.

http://mormonexpositor.com/40-mormons-demons-and-exorcisms/

[crixus]

Someone I know gave a blessing to a person to cast one out. (The youth had been playing with witchcraft books and a Ouija board; I know about this event because I was there and witnessed the whole thing from beginning to end). The demon then fled downstairs and remained in the house. The senior companion then decided to go with his companion downstairs to cast it out of the house, as it was still somehow connected to the youth who lived there and was taunting him and threatening to possess the youth again as soon as the missionaries left.

As they were about to go downstairs the junior companion was lifted off the floor a few inches, turned 180 degrees, and was dropped back onto the floor. Totally freaked the junior companion out and he did not want to go downstairs (do you blame him?). After being talked into it and having it explained that the demon was trying to get them separated and violate a mission rule so he could harm whoever went down there alone because they violated a mission rule, he convinced his junior to go with him. It was not easy and took several minutes of convincing or he could not do it.

When they got down there, the entire basement of the house was in a mess. There were witchcraft and satanism books scattered around the room, a bible had a pair of scissors piercing all the way through, right between the eyes of a picture of Jesus in the middle of the inside of the book, a refrigerator had been moved across the room and the power cord ripped clean out of the appliance. And, there was a horrible smell and an ice-cold chill in the air like had been upstairs with the thermostat set to 90 and heater system blazing.

At any rate, the senior companion knelt and began to pray. During the prayer, the demon manifested himself to the junior companion and the youth who had been possessed and began walking toward them, causing another panic to try to interrupt the prayer. The senior companion then ended his prayer, stood up and raised his arm to the square, stated the authority he held, and commanded the demon in the name of Jesus Christ to depart. It fled out of the basement and a dog in the yard in the same direction as the demon fled then began barking frantically for a few seconds. As soon as the demon fled the smell was gone and the ice cold feeling in the air departed.

When the senior companion was asked why he was not unnerved by all this he said that he had experienced these sorts of things before. There was no ceremony or actual rite involved. Not that I saw, at any rate.

I'm sure that happened.

[crixus]

Questions of exorcisms presuppose a genuine possession has taken place.

Our mission President told us a story of possessed, but what he described sounded more like someone who had a mental illness. Our MTC teacher warned us of stuff like this as if it were something we should expect in the mission field. But I've never come across anything like it. An old friend of mine told me stories about how his mission president performed an exorcism, the demon fled into a dog, and then the dog ran into the street to get hit by a car.

But you know, these are just stories. Just like the number of stories about bullet-proof missionaries who were wearing their garments. Fun to listen to, but no actual real life experience with it or rational basis to believe they're true.

[Kenngo1969]

Questions of exorcisms presuppose a genuine possession has taken place.

Our mission President told us a story of possessed, but what he described sounded more like someone who had a mental illness. Our MTC teacher warned us of stuff like this as if it were something we should expect in the mission field. But I've never come across anything like it. An old friend of mine told me stories about how his mission president performed an exorcism, the demon fled into a dog, and then the dog ran into the street to get hit by a car.

But you know, these are just stories. Just like the number of stories about bullet-proof missionaries who were wearing their garments. Fun to listen to, but no actual real life experience with it or rational basis to believe they're true.

I think, perhaps, that mental illness can make one more prone to the Adversary's influence (while such experience has not involved possession, I have personal experience with this). I would not, however, conflate mental illness with possession by or influence of the Adversary. They are two different things, even though they might be related in some cases and in some ways. I know two things: (1) I know the Adversary is real; and (2) I know that almost any being who has a body ultimately has (or at least can have) power over one who does not. I don't have any reason to doubt any of these accounts. I have never, to the best of my knowledge, met anyone who has shared such an account on this thread, but I have no reason to believe that these people are not reasonably sane, reasonably well-adjusted, reasonably intelligent individuals. If they tell me that [x] happened, then I have little reason to doubt that [x] happened. I believe that there was a war in Heaven, and that the battle begun there continues here. That said, while Satan and his minions may have power to bruise my heel, I have power to crush their heads (along with, as I said, most anyone who has a body).

[Kenngo1969]

I'm sure that happened.

He said, skeptically?

[Kenngo1969]

A recent podcast that many may find interesting.

http://mormonexposit...-and-exorcisms/

Frankly, after scrolling down on the page and seeing several journal articles discussing alleged possession vis-à-vis mental illness, I'm not sure I want to bother with the podcast. If you'd like to try to convince me that there's a reason why I should change my mind, you're welcome to do so.

[crixus]

I don't have any reason to doubt any of these accounts.

I don't have any reason to believe them.

Many reasons to disbelieve. That story by MormonMason sounded like something I saw in an Amityville movie. He also said that this one person was used to these experiences. Right. I'm sure.

[Tacenda]

Frankly, after scrolling down on the page and seeing several journal articles discussing alleged possession vis-à-vis mental illness, I'm not sure I want to bother with the podcast. If you'd like to try to convince me that there's a reason why I should change my mind, you're welcome to do so.

Check out all the other podcasts. I'm listening to the one about Mark Hoffman that is a two part series. Learning stuff I didn't know about and thought I'd read everything there is to know.

[inquiringmind]

I don't have any reason to believe them.

Many reasons to disbelieve. That story by MormonMason sounded like something I saw in an Amityville movie. He also said that this one person was used to these experiences. Right. I'm sure.

Why would he lie?

I can see why Oral Roberts might lie about have a vision in which God told him He was gonna take him home if he didn't raise a million dollars (or whatever the sum was) by a particular date, but why would someone known only as "MormonMason" lie about seeing supernatural events on an internet forum where we're all pretty much anonymous?

What do any of us have to gain by lying to each other about such things here?

He also said that this one person was used to these experiences.

Where did he say that?

[crixus]

Why would he lie?

Why do people lie about a number of Mormon related myths? The better question is, why would you believe an anonymous poster telling a story like this?

I can see why Oral Roberts might lie

Or Paul H. Dunn. People lie for stupid reasons all the time. On a religion forum people lie about religious experiences in order to validate their religion. But from what I understood, MormonMason was telling a story second-hand. He wasn't claiming that he himself saw this event happen.

What do any of us have to gain by lying to each other about such things here?

That's not a good reason to take an anonymous poster's unlikely story, for granted.

Where did he say that?

"When the senior companion was asked why he was not unnerved by all this he said that he had experienced these sorts of things before."

Right. This happens to the same young missionary on a regular basis, yet most people never experience possessions even once in their entire lives? For critical thinkers, this is a huge red flag.

[Chronos]

crixus will be taking the rest of the day off.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

For critical thinkers, ....

Plants palm in face and walks away.

[mfbukowski]

Plants palm in face and walks away.

You forgot the head shake.

[The Nehor]

Self-proclaimed critical thinkers are like emo kids. Both should be lined up and shot for the benefit of eveyone who would otherwise be forced to interact with them.

[Kenngo1969]

I don't have any reason to believe them.

Many reasons to disbelieve. That story by MormonMason sounded like something I saw in an Amityville movie. He also said that this one person was used to these experiences. Right. I'm sure.

Skepticism can be just as much a tool of the Adversary as can deliberately doing things that leave one vulnerable to his influence. You probably think that your skepticism renders you invulnerable to having such experiences, when in fact the opposite is true. And the problem is that by the time you recognize this, it may be too late for you to do anything about it ("Hey, maybe there is something to the accounts of these types of experiences after all”). Nephi describes you perfectly:

[2 Nephi 28:22] And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

I prefer my approach, previously stated, which I believe accomplishes two things, (a) recognizing reality, while (b) not being unduly fearful or preoccupied that such a reality exists: (1) I know the Adversary is real; (2) I know that the battle (perhaps a better word would be the effort) he began in the premortal life to try to win the souls of men continues here on earth; and (3) I know that any being with a body has (or can have) power to triumph over any being without one.

While I don’t favor your approach to things spiritual, and while we fundamentally disagree, nevertheless, I wish you well.

[Kenngo1969]

Check out all the other podcasts. I'm listening to the one about Mark Hoffman that is a two part series. Learning stuff I didn't know about and thought I'd read everything there is to know.

OK. So there's other stuff on the site. With due respect, that doesn't tell me whether that "stuff" is of any higher quality than the things I expressed concern about. It's as though I said, "I found a pound of horse manure. I'm disinclined to explore further," and someone else saying in response, "Ahh, but there's much more on the site than simply horse manure. There's cow dung, and doggie do-do ..." Opinions on Internet sites are just like opinions expressed elsewhere, and opinions (wherever and however expressed) are like rear-ends: everybody has one, but some are better than others.

[Kenngo1969]

crixus will be taking the rest of the day off.

Until he can learn to work and play well with others?