Joseph Smih And Flaming Sword

[sethpayne]

I understand that seth. But it was also convenient for the old testament prophets to include it in their narrative. The point is that many exmormons have no clue that it is also in the bible. They never reference the bible for the sword story. And so, most know nothing about it and that includes members who discover this story of Joseph and the sword. It is important to mention the bible reference because it does show that god does work this way. But this is also where faith comes into play and the words that the wives of Joseph said about him such as agnes coolbrith I referenced in a previous post. He doesn't come across as a sex crazed guy in her statement.

Quoting the bible to atheists won't do much good!

I think the stronger argument is that of Bushman's: Joseph was forming dynastic ties.

I flatly reject the sex-crazed claim. As Kathleen Flake pointed out in the PBS special from a few years back, there are a lot easier ways to fulfill your sexual desires than to marry 33 women.

[divinenature]

Huh. So the sword wasn't flaming after all. I'm a little disappointed. It was just a plain ol' drawn sword.

Where did the one single quote from Joseph originate? Who said that he said that?

[divinenature]

I think this is the crux of what bothers people about the use of the sword toting angel:

"19 year-old Zina remained conflicted until a day in October, apparently, when Joseph sent [her older brother] Dimick to her with a message: an angel with a drawn sword had stood over Smith and told him that if he did not establish polygamy, he would lose "his position and his life." Zina, faced with the responsibility for his position as prophet, and even perhaps his life, finally acquiesced." (In Sacred Loneliness, page 80-81)

I used it from the same site you got your quotes from.

This woman was conflicted. She only agrees to go through with it after she is told that Joseph will be murdered if she doesn't. That is manipulation and coercion.

Edited September 13, 2012 by divinenature

[Walden]

Isn't it possible for Joseph to have already read those passages in the bible and had to use it to put across the need for polygamy to be restored?

Yes, of course, this is the simplest and certainly the most rationale explanation.

There are a number of Book of Mormon passages that appear to be lifted from bible passages, even down to the KJV language that was used by bible translators (a language that was not in use during the times that the plates from which the Book of Mormon was transcribed were written). I can provide any number of references here, if desired, but I think that this topic (the lifting of passages from the bible) has been well-documented in these forums.

The most sensical explanation for Smith's use of the "angel with a flaming sword" imagery is that the imagery of an angel with a sword is used in the bible, from which critics claim much of Joseph's BoM translation work was lifted from.

[rameumptom]

The way Joseph convinced these women (and their families in many instances) to accept marriage, was to ask them to pray about it and the Lord would confirm it. Several note having had visions or some other kind of confirming experience. Joseph's story of the angel and sword was not the convincing event, as Joseph knew each of them would require their own testimony.

This is often what separates Mormonism from other religions with charismatic leaders. Often in the other religions, the people are expected to believe the events told them by their prophet/leader at his own word. For Joseph, the answer has always been for the person to gain his/her own spiritual witness. So many see angels and Christ with Joseph, or in their own separate experience.

[cinepro]

Isn't it possible for Joseph to have already read those passages in the bible and had to use it to put across the need for polygamy to be restored?

Oh sure. Joseph got an ancient Hebrew book from the same magical library in Palmyra that he got all his other books on ancient history!

[Walden]

Oh sure. Joseph got an ancient Hebrew book from the same magical library in Palmyra that he got all his other books on ancient history!

Can't really interpret your tone here, but you are not arguing that Joseph did not have access to a KJV bible, are you?

[Kenngo1969]

The thing about the angel with the sword is not that it is so far-fetched (though it is that too). The problem with the angel with a sword is that ii essentially makes God an accomplice to rape.

If you threaten to kill someone if they do not have sex with you that is what we call rape. If you threaten to kill someone if they do not have sex with another person that is also rape.

It is very disturbing that God would be a party to such a degrading, dehumanizing event.

You are out of the thread.

I know you've left the building, Elvis , but for the sake of anyone lurking who might be of like mind, I still can't let this pass. It makes you a you-know-what in so many ways that I can't even count them, let alone name them. Let's examine your assumptions. Did Joseph Smith have free will to refuse the command that he institute plural marriage? Of course he did. Did the women who were invited to live the principle have free will to decide whether to do so or not? Of course they did. If a purported prophet issues a purportedly-revealed instruction to me, do I still have the responsibility to seek my own testimony that the purported prophet is led by God and that the instruction comes from the latter rather than simply from the former? Of course I do. Were all of the unions entered into through plural marriage sexually intimate in nature? I don't know for sure, but I seriously doubt it.

Other than all of those holes, any one of which could accommodate a Mack truck being driven through it, your logic is perfectly sound! Thanks fer playin'!

[KevinG]

Oh sure. Joseph got an ancient Hebrew book from the same magical library in Palmyra that he got all his other books on ancient history!

The Urim and Thummim was really an Ipad with a really powerful WiFi signal and a time/space paradox generator.

[Kenngo1969]

The way Joseph convinced these women (and their families in many instances) to accept marriage, was to ask them to pray about it and the Lord would confirm it. ....

What balderdash! What poppycock! What utter rot! Everyone knows that once The Prophet Speaks, The Thinking Has Been Done, and That Settles It! © and

[why me]

I used it from the same site you got your quotes from.

This woman was conflicted. She only agrees to go through with it after she is told that Joseph will be murdered if she doesn't. That is manipulation and coercion.

Zina chose to obey this commandment and married Joseph on October 27. She later recalled, “When I heard that God had revealed the law of celestial marriag...I obtained a testimony for myself that God had required that order to be established in this church...I made a greater sacrifise than to give my life for I never anticipated again to be looked upon as an honerable woman by those I dearly loved...”. Zina continued, “It was something too sacred to be talked about; it was more to me than life or death. I never breathed it for years

As you can see, there is more to the story that Compton might wish to admit. She obtained a testimony for herself. And she received it. She was not the dupe you made her out to be.

[cesc101]

What balderdash! What poppycock! What utter rot! Everyone knows that once The Prophet Speaks, The Thinking Has Been Done, and That Settles It! © and

Wow...!

I didn't realise that was a practice in the LDS church...

[Thinking]

What I find interesting is the threat of destruction which accompanies the introduction of plural marriage. According to various sources, Joseph Smith claimed that an angel with a sword would destroy him if he did not enter into the practice. Emma is threatened with destruction if she does not allow Joseph to take plural wives (see D&C 132:52,54,64).

[USU78]

It was obviously an important issue to G-d. Who knew?

I keep wondering what sort of inducements G-d brought to bear upon Abraham to get him to commit to kill his only son from Sarah.

Angels with swords, maybe?

[why me]

It was obviously an important issue to G-d. Who knew?

I keep wondering what sort of inducements G-d brought to bear upon Abraham to get him to commit to kill his only son from Sarah.

Angels with swords, maybe?

Could be. There are certainly precedence for it in the bible. People do not question the angel with a sword in the bible but they question Joseph Smith. Kinda strange. And as I shown to divinenature, zina obtained her own testimony of the principle. And she married Joseph. Was zina lying? Was zina duped by satan? Or did she receive an experience that she could not deny? I choose the last.

[Thinking]

“When I heard that God had revealed the law of celestial marriag...

Note that Zina refers to plural marriage as celestial marriage. Edited September 13, 2012 by Thinking

[why me]

Note that Zina refers to plural marriage as celestial marriage.

And.....

[USU78]

Could be. There are certainly precedence for it in the bible. People do not question the angel with a sword in the bible but they question Joseph Smith. Kinda strange. And as I shown to divinenature, zina obtained her own testimony of the principle. And she married Joseph. Was zina lying? Was zina duped by satan? Or did she receive an experience that she could not deny? I choose the last.

You keep that up and they'll be revoking your membership in the International Order of Defenders of Dead Mormon Women.

[KevinG]

I have read Zina's journals (shared by a descendant) and they are a powerful and touching testimony of the principle and the blessings obedience to God brings. This from an obviously intelligent and powerful woman. Sometimes I think when we discuss these sacred and difficult things we are in danger of being shouted down by the nasty and spurious rumors, innuendo and outright lies regarding polygamy, the intelligence and independence of Mormon pioneer women and the difficult choices the Prophets had to make in order to obey God.

[KevinG]

It was obviously an important issue to G-d. Who knew?

I keep wondering what sort of inducements G-d brought to bear upon Abraham to get him to commit to kill his only son from Sarah.

Angels with swords, maybe?

No the angel had to stop his hand. Isaac was a teenager. At least that is what my HP group theorizes.

Edited September 13, 2012 by KevinG

[ERMD]

Rep point to KG.

[KevinG]

Rep point to KG.

Thank you I'm here all week. Try the veal!

[Thinking]

And.....

Apologists sometimes claim that plural marriage was a periphery of celestial marriage. Zina's statement and sermons like Orson Pratt's suggest that celestial marriage = plural marriage.

[Tacenda]

No two stories are alike. We have the account in chronicles and the sword creating fear for those involved. And then we have joseph saying that he also had an angel threatening him with a sword. It is not unprecedented, since it is also in the bible.

But here you are:

"It is true that the Prophet Joseph Smith was visited by many heavenly messengers who helped inaugurate this final dispensation."

"Latter-day Saints are blessed through the Prophet Joseph Smith’s great faith and mission that opened the windows of heaven. He was the preappointed agent through which communion with the heavens and the earthly ministry of angels were resumed in a grand manner."

"Through faith, his weaknesses became strengths, and he nobly fulfilled his great foreordained mission—because heavenly messengers were his guides."

- LDS Church Publication "Ensign,", Oct. 1994, page 62

Faithful Mormons accept Joseph Smith's story of conversing face-to-face with God-the-Father and Jesus Christ. They accept his story about angel Moroni visiting him.

Joseph Smith also testified of another angelic visitor, one that came to him repeatedly to command him to teach an eternal principle and commandment. This revelation was so important, the angel threatened Smith's life if he did not teach and practice it. Joseph Smith's consistent testimony regarding this heavenly messenger is just as credible as the stories he told about his other visits from the angel Moroni.

"The same God that has thus far dictated me and directed me and strengthened me in this work, gave me this revelation and commandment on celestial and plural marriage, and the same God commanded me to obey it. He said to me that unless I accepted it, and introduced it, and practiced it, I, together with my people would be damned and cut off from this time henceforth. We have got to observe it. It is an eternal principle and was given by way of commandment and not by way of instruction."

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Contributor, Vol. 5, p. 259

"When that principle was revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith ... he did not falter, although it was not until an angel of God, with a drawn sword, stood before him; and commanded that he should enter into the practice of that principle, or he should be utterly destroyed, or rejected, that he moved forward to reveal and establish that doctrine."

- Prophet Joseph F. Smith, "Plural Marriage for the Righteous Only-Obedience Imperative-Blessings Resulting", Journal of Discourses, Vol.20, p.28 - p.29

"Joseph was commanded to take more wives and he waited until an angel with a drawn sword stood before him and declared that if he longer delayed fulfilling that command he would slay him."

- Hyrum Smith, Elder Benjamin F. Johnson's Letter to George S. Gibbs, 1903

"I know whereon I stand, I know what I believe, I know what I know and I know what I testify to you is the living truth. As I expect to meet it at the bar of the eternal Jehovah, it is true. And when you stand before the bar you will know. He preached polygamy and he not only preached it, but he practiced it. I am a living witness to it. It was given to him before he gave it to the Church. An angel came to him and the last time he came with a drawn sword in his hand and told Joseph if he did not go into that principle, he would slay him."

- Sister Mary Lightner, Address to Brigham Young University, April 14th, 1905, BYU Archives and Manuscripts

Also See: http://www.ldshistor.../pc/merlbyu.htm

As we can see. It wasn't much of a secret. It was widely known. And believed.

Wow, you rarely see this rendition of Joseph Smith. I saw this once but it was a photo that looked just like this one and whomever put it up on the web said this was his actual photo. Interesting that you used this particular one.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Tacenda

[Flyonthewall]

it's very possible that Joesph Smith did know of those passages, but that doesn't mean that the angel didn't also appear to him! Of course you can believe any scenario you like. We just take him at his word!

Oh...I was thinking you were going to say "We just take him at hi sword"...