why me Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) Critics often claim that Joseph Smith made up the flaming sword to convince women to practice polygamy with him. They claim that no angel could have appeard to Joseph Smith with a flaming sword. However, it does seem that in the bible the lord has used an angel with a sword to stress a point:<< 1 Chronicles 21 >>16Then David lifted up his eyes and saw the angel of the LORD standing between earth and heaven, with his drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders, covered with sackcloth, fell on their faces. 17David said to God, “Is it not I who commanded to count the people? Indeed, I am the one who has sinned and done very wickedly, but these sheep, what have they done? O LORD my God, please let Your hand be against me and my father’s household, but not against Your people that they should be plagued.”---------------------28At that time, when David saw that the LORD had answered him on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite, he offered sacrifice there. 29For the tabernacle of the LORD, which Moses had made in the wilderness, and the altar of burnt offering were in the high place at Gibeon at that time. 30But David could not go before it to inquire of God, for he was terrified by the sword of the angel of the LORD. It seems that the critics are unaware that in the bible the sword has been used by the lord, as has a sword to stress a point. So, why is Joseph saying that an angel with a flaming sword threatened him so unbelievable for the exmormons and for some members who have been affected by this? Edited September 13, 2012 by why me
Flyonthewall Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Do not forget the account of Balaam...An angel stood in his path with his sword drawn..
Tacenda Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Critics often claim that Joseph Smith made up the flaming sword to convince women to practice polygamy with him. They claim that no angel could have appeard to Joseph Smith with a flaming sword. However, it does seem that in the bible the lord has used an angel with a sword to stress a point:<< 1 Chronicles 21 >>16Then David lifted up his eyes and saw the angel of the LORD standing between earth and heaven, with his drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders, covered with sackcloth, fell on their faces. 17David said to God, “Is it not I who commanded to count the people? Indeed, I am the one who has sinned and done very wickedly, but these sheep, what have they done? O LORD my God, please let Your hand be against me and my father’s household, but not against Your people that they should be plagued.”---------------------28At that time, when David saw that the LORD had answered him on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite, he offered sacrifice there. 29For the tabernacle of the LORD, which Moses had made in the wilderness, and the altar of burnt offering were in the high place at Gibeon at that time. 30But David could not go before it to inquire of God, for he was terrified by the sword of the angel of the LORD. It seems that the critics are unaware that in the bible the sword has been used by the lord, as has a sword to stress a point. So, why is Joseph saying that an angel with a flaming sword threatened him so unbelievable for the exmormons and for some members who have been affected by this?Isn't it possible for Joseph to have already read those passages in the bible and had to use it to put across the need for polygamy to be restored?
mrmendoza Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 it's very possible that Joesph Smith did know of those passages, but that doesn't mean that the angel didn't also appear to him! Of course you can believe any scenario you like. We just take him at his word! 1
Verum Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Doesn't it seem odd though that a sword would be used by angels to emphasize a point in the mid 19th century? During Biblical times since this would have been a common weapon at that time, its understandable that a sword would have been the most recognizable weapon to symbolize the severity of the message or warning. In other words, an angels weapon of choice so to speak just so happens to coincide with common weapons of the time. Would an angel carrying a gun be more appropriate? Would that be weirder or less believable of a story than appearing with a sword? Just a random thought...
ERayR Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Isn't it possible for Joseph to have already read those passages in the bible and had to use it to put across the need for polygamy to be restored?Of course it is possible so now you must decide whether you believe Joseph was a prophet that conversed with God or whether he wasn't.
ERayR Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Doesn't it seem odd though that a sword would be used by angels to emphasize a point in the mid 19th century? During Biblical times since this would have been a common weapon at that time, its understandable that a sword would have been the most recognizable weapon to symbolize the severity of the message or warning. In other words, an angels weapon of choice so to speak just so happens to coincide with common weapons of the time. Would an angel carrying a gun be more appropriate? Would that be weirder or less believable of a story than appearing with a sword?Just a random thought...The angel may not have had a permit to carry a gun. 2
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Author Posted September 13, 2012 Isn't it possible for Joseph to have already read those passages in the bible and had to use it to put across the need for polygamy to be restored?Of course that is a possibility. However, the critics do not mention this. What they do do is imply that the whole situation is ridiculous. That no angel could have appeared to threaten or warn Joseph Smith. However we do see a precedent for the sword based in the bible.
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Author Posted September 13, 2012 Of course it is possible so now you must decide whether you believe Joseph was a prophet that conversed with God or whether he wasn't.That is true. However, people need to know that the angel has been used in the bible. The question is: are the accounts in the bible true? If so, the angel could have appeared to Joseph Smith. And we also need to mention that the women who prayed about this principle after saying no or expressing doubts experienced very powerful experiences that the principle is true.
ERayR Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 That is true. However, people need to know that the angel has been used in the bible. The question is: are the accounts in the bible true? If so, the angel could have appeared to Joseph Smith. And we also need to mention that the women who prayed about this principle after saying no or expressing doubts experienced very powerful experiences that the principle is true.No matter how you look at it, it all comes down to faith. Faith in the biblical accounts and faith in Joseph Smith's account.
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Author Posted September 13, 2012 Doesn't it seem odd though that a sword would be used by angels to emphasize a point in the mid 19th century? During Biblical times since this would have been a common weapon at that time, its understandable that a sword would have been the most recognizable weapon to symbolize the severity of the message or warning. In other words, an angels weapon of choice so to speak just so happens to coincide with common weapons of the time. Would an angel carrying a gun be more appropriate? Would that be weirder or less believable of a story than appearing with a sword?Just a random thought...Being threatened with a sword is a very powerful threat. We also need to remember that swords were also used at that time in the army. Many people died by the sword in the civil war.http://www.johnnyg.westhost.com/swords-usa-cw.htmlhttp://www.atlantacutlery.com/s-51-swords-other-weapons.aspx
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Author Posted September 13, 2012 No matter how you look at it, it all comes down to faith. Faith in the biblical accounts and faith in Joseph Smith's account.Not just that. But faith in the bible that the lord would send an angel with a sword to make a strong point. Seems mighty strange if god is love. And that is my point too. Some exmormons may claim that the lord would never send an angel with a sword to threaten anyone since he is a god of love. But the bible tells us differently. The sword was used by angels.
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Author Posted September 13, 2012 it's very possible that Joesph Smith did know of those passages, but that doesn't mean that the angel didn't also appear to him! Of course you can believe any scenario you like. We just take him at his word!But at least now we know that the lord has sent angels with swords to make his point...it certainly caused fear. As it did with Joseph Smith.
Antoni Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Was this incident before or after the revelation Joseph Smith had regarding how to tell a true angel from a false one?
ERayR Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Was this incident before or after the revelation Joseph Smith had regarding how to tell a true angel from a false one?And this is relevant because?
Antoni Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Would it not have been better for him to check it was a true angel rather than a messenger from satan?You could hypothesise that this angel was not giving him a godly message and that he was deceived.
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Author Posted September 13, 2012 Was this incident before or after the revelation Joseph Smith had regarding how to tell a true angel from a false one?Joseph received the revelation in 1843 in D&C 129. He related the angel to the brother of Zina Huntington in 1841. I think that I am correct in this.http://institute.lds.org/manuals/doctrine-and-covenants-institute-student-manual/dc-in-121-129.asp
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Author Posted September 13, 2012 Would it not have been better for him to check it was a true angel rather than a messenger from satan?You could hypothesise that this angel was not giving him a godly message and that he was deceived.I hope that I answered your question. Keep asking questions.
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Author Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) You could hpothesise that this angel was not giving him a godly message and that he was deceived.Since many of the women invovled received their own spiritual confirmations, I think that it would be safe to say that it was from god. Also, would god allow satan to mess with his prophets in such a fashion? How do we know that the angels in the bible are from god or satan when they appear to people as referenced in my OP?We need to remember that this was not the first angel that Joseph saw. He saw the angel Moroni much earlier. Edited September 13, 2012 by why me
divinenature Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 The thing about the angel with the sword is not that it is so far-fetched (though it is that too). The problem with the angel with a sword is that ii essentially makes God an accomplice to rape.If you threaten to kill someone if they do not have sex with you that is what we call rape. If you threaten to kill someone if they do not have sex with another person that is also rape.It is very disturbing that God would be a party to such a degrading, dehumanizing event.You are out of the thread.
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Author Posted September 13, 2012 The thing about the angel with the sword is not that it is so far-fetched (though it is that too). The problem with the angel with a sword is that ii essentially makes God an accomplice to rape.If you threaten to kill someone if they do not have sex with you that is what we call rape. If you threaten to kill someone if they do not have sex with another person that is also rape.It is very disturbing that God would be a party to such a degrading, dehumanizing event.It wasn't about sex. it was about Joseph not wishing to be a polygamist. That is where the threat came from the angel. What rape? As we can see in my OP the angel did have its effect in the old testament too. it was quiet a site to behold obviously. Also this thread cannot be about sex because it will be closed. We should just address the sword and why it could have happened because it is also referenced in the bible.
divinenature Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) It wasn't about sex. it was about Joseph not wishing to be a polygamist. That is where the threat came from the angel. What rape? As we can see in my OP the angel did have its effect in the old testament too. it was quiet a site to behold obviously. Also this thread cannot be about sex because it will be closed. We should just address the sword and why it could have happened because it is also referenced in the bible.What was the angel threatening? Do you have a link to the recorded story so we can compare it to the Biblical story? Edited September 13, 2012 by divinenature
sethpayne Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Critics often claim that Joseph Smith made up the flaming sword to convince women to practice polygamy with him. They claim that no angel could have appeard to Joseph Smith with a flaming sword. However, it does seem that in the bible the lord has used an angel with a sword to stress a point:<< 1 Chronicles 21 >>16Then David lifted up his eyes and saw the angel of the LORD standing between earth and heaven, with his drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders, covered with sackcloth, fell on their faces. 17David said to God, “Is it not I who commanded to count the people? Indeed, I am the one who has sinned and done very wickedly, but these sheep, what have they done? O LORD my God, please let Your hand be against me and my father’s household, but not against Your people that they should be plagued.”---------------------28At that time, when David saw that the LORD had answered him on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite, he offered sacrifice there. 29For the tabernacle of the LORD, which Moses had made in the wilderness, and the altar of burnt offering were in the high place at Gibeon at that time. 30But David could not go before it to inquire of God, for he was terrified by the sword of the angel of the LORD. It seems that the critics are unaware that in the bible the sword has been used by the lord, as has a sword to stress a point. So, why is Joseph saying that an angel with a flaming sword threatened him so unbelievable for the exmormons and for some members who have been affected by this?Hi Why Me,I don't think you are representing the criticism very well -- at least for a big chunk of critics. The criticism isn't that an angel with a sword appeared to JS. The criticism is that the angel/sword story is very convenient. Especially when you are trying to convince others that your out-of-the-norm practice is a divine edict, non-observance of which will have deadly consequences. They see it as a made up story for purposes of manipulating believers. Other religious leaders have used similar tactics to engage in abnormal sexual arrangements and so I think critics are trying to lump JS in with this wider group. Personally, I think JS was sincere in his practice of polygamy and thought it was the right thing to do. I don't see JS as a fraud.I suppose some EV critics may object to the angel story on a Biblical basis but since many critics today hold secular views, I don't think this represents the thrust of their criticism.Seth
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Author Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) What was the angel threatening? Do you have a link to the recorded story so we can compare it to the Biblical story?No two stories are alike. We have the account in chronicles and the sword creating fear for those involved. And then we have joseph saying that he also had an angel threatening him with a sword. It is not unprecedented, since it is also in the bible.But here you are:"It is true that the Prophet Joseph Smith was visited by many heavenly messengers who helped inaugurate this final dispensation.""Latter-day Saints are blessed through the Prophet Joseph Smith’s great faith and mission that opened the windows of heaven. He was the preappointed agent through which communion with the heavens and the earthly ministry of angels were resumed in a grand manner.""Through faith, his weaknesses became strengths, and he nobly fulfilled his great foreordained mission—because heavenly messengers were his guides."- LDS Church Publication "Ensign,", Oct. 1994, page 62Faithful Mormons accept Joseph Smith's story of conversing face-to-face with God-the-Father and Jesus Christ. They accept his story about angel Moroni visiting him.Joseph Smith also testified of another angelic visitor, one that came to him repeatedly to command him to teach an eternal principle and commandment. This revelation was so important, the angel threatened Smith's life if he did not teach and practice it. Joseph Smith's consistent testimony regarding this heavenly messenger is just as credible as the stories he told about his other visits from the angel Moroni."The same God that has thus far dictated me and directed me and strengthened me in this work, gave me this revelation and commandment on celestial and plural marriage, and the same God commanded me to obey it. He said to me that unless I accepted it, and introduced it, and practiced it, I, together with my people would be damned and cut off from this time henceforth. We have got to observe it. It is an eternal principle and was given by way of commandment and not by way of instruction."- Prophet Joseph Smith, Contributor, Vol. 5, p. 259"When that principle was revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith ... he did not falter, although it was not until an angel of God, with a drawn sword, stood before him; and commanded that he should enter into the practice of that principle, or he should be utterly destroyed, or rejected, that he moved forward to reveal and establish that doctrine."- Prophet Joseph F. Smith, "Plural Marriage for the Righteous Only-Obedience Imperative-Blessings Resulting", Journal of Discourses, Vol.20, p.28 - p.29 "Joseph was commanded to take more wives and he waited until an angel with a drawn sword stood before him and declared that if he longer delayed fulfilling that command he would slay him."- Hyrum Smith, Elder Benjamin F. Johnson's Letter to George S. Gibbs, 1903"I know whereon I stand, I know what I believe, I know what I know and I know what I testify to you is the living truth. As I expect to meet it at the bar of the eternal Jehovah, it is true. And when you stand before the bar you will know. He preached polygamy and he not only preached it, but he practiced it. I am a living witness to it. It was given to him before he gave it to the Church. An angel came to him and the last time he came with a drawn sword in his hand and told Joseph if he did not go into that principle, he would slay him."- Sister Mary Lightner, Address to Brigham Young University, April 14th, 1905, BYU Archives and ManuscriptsAlso See: http://www.ldshistor.../pc/merlbyu.htm As we can see. It wasn't much of a secret. It was widely known. And believed. Edited September 13, 2012 by why me
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Author Posted September 13, 2012 Hi Why Me,I don't think you are representing the criticism very well -- at least for a big chunk of critics. The criticism isn't that an angel with a sword appeared to JS. The criticism is that the angel/sword story is very convenient. Especially when you are trying to convince others that your out-of-the-norm practice is a divine edict, non-observance of which will have deadly consequences. They see it as a made up story for purposes of manipulating believers. Other religious leaders have used similar tactics to engage in abnormal sexual arrangements and so I think critics are trying to lump JS in with this wider group. Personally, I think JS was sincere in his practice of polygamy and thought it was the right thing to do. I don't see JS as a fraud.I suppose some EV critics may object to the angel story on a Biblical basis but since many critics today hold secular views, I don't think this represents the thrust of their criticism.SethI understand that seth. But it was also convenient for the old testament prophets to include it in their narrative. The point is that many exmormons have no clue that it is also in the bible. They never reference the bible for the sword story. And so, most know nothing about it and that includes members who discover this story of Joseph and the sword. It is important to mention the bible reference because it does show that god does work this way. But this is also where faith comes into play and the words that the wives of Joseph said about him such as agnes coolbrith I referenced in a previous post. He doesn't come across as a sex crazed guy in her statement.
Recommended Posts