Exmormon Anger Toward The Lds Church.

[why me]

You're now talking about whether or not the anger is justified,

That's right. I don't think that anger is justified as a speculative emotion since whether the book of mormon is what it is claimed to be is speculative since we did not have Joseph's experience or the experience of the witnesses.

My point is: anger can be very destructive if it lasts over a certain period of time. And there is no point to engage in such destructive anger over a speculation.

Now anger would be justified if it is proven that Joseph conned people with the book of mormon. Something tangible, a letter, a confession, a rough draft of the manuscript etc.

Edited August 20, 2012 by why me

[why me]

Let me give another example. If I were a christian and I read Dawkins' book "The God Delusion", and became convinced by his book, should I be angry at the catholic church, the protestant churches etc because Dawkins made atheism attractive and convincing? No. He did not prove that god did not exist regardless if his book convinced me to be an atheist. .

[sethpayne]

Seth, what did you mean by "the secularist are doing it for you"?

I mean that after all these years of trying to win people away from the Church it appears that secular, rather than Tannerized arguments, are actually proving effective.

We anecdotaly observe that many, if not most, who become ex-Mormon become atheist/agnostic and not EV, as Tanner would have hoped.

[sethpayne]

I can understand the anger here but certainly not for weeks and weeks. Also, regardless of this, it does't prove the church false. What it does prove is that decisions are made that i may not agree with. And i can be angry at that but not for very long. And I certainly can be in the church since the truth claims do not depend on decisions of the people who put together the manuals. They are just Utah people after all.

What I think happens is that the critics want to the exmormons to be angry and they want them to go through a process. When exmormons or doubting mormons who are leaving read critic boards it seems that they are taught to´be angry and to grieve. But why grieve over something that hasn't been proven false? Or be angry about being 'conned' by Joseph Smith? His first vision account hasn't been proven a fraud. I would think that when some of the witnesses left the church, they should be angry if they knew they were conned. But this was not their problem. They did not think of themselves conned. They left over disappointment with the prophet.

I see no anger management issues with the witnesses who left.

It's not about what has, or has not been "proven" true or false. It's about perception.

Take the first vision. An ex-Mormon may state that they were lied to and were never told about the different versions. The Church suppressed this information. Is this true? Well, I absolutely believe that this person likely never heard about the different versions. It never came up in Sunday School or seminary (at least in my classes).

At the same time, we have detailed studies of the issue in BYU studies and from many years ago.

Also, you have to see this as a legitimate time of mourning. To the ex-Mormon they are leaving a huge portion of what defines them. It is completely natural for ex-members to feel anger/hurt etc... The question over whether that anger/hurt is justified is meaningless. Leaving the Church is an emotional, as well as intellectual decision I would think.

[Calm]

It's not about what has, or has not been "proven" true or false. It's about perception.

Take the first vision. An ex-Mormon may state that they were lied to and were never told about the different versions. The Church suppressed this information. Is this true? Well, I absolutely believe that this person likely never heard about the different versions. It never came up in Sunday School or seminary (at least in my classes).

At the same time, we have detailed studies of the issue in BYU studies and from many years ago.

It was also in the Ensign awhile back, available now online.

If you type in "First Vision" into the search function the second entry is "Accounts of the First Vision" which also includes three Ensigns dealings with the different accounts.

http://www.lds.org/topics/accounts-of-the-first-vision?lang=eng

This is also found in the TotP: Joseph Smith in the first chapter on the First Vision:

3. Joseph Smith, History 1832, pp. 1–2; Letter Book 1, 1829–35, Joseph Smith, Collection, Church Archives.

4. Joseph Smith—History 1:5, 7–13. On several occasions the Prophet Joseph Smith wrote or dictated detailed accounts of the First Vision. Quotations in this chapter are from the First Vision account first published in 1842 in “History of Joseph Smith,” Times and Seasons, Mar. 15, 1842, pp. 726–28; Apr. 1, 1842, pp. 748–49; and later included in the Pearl of Great Price and published in the History of the Church, vol. 1, pp. 1–8. This is the official scriptural account. The Prophet Joseph Smith prepared this account in 1838 and 1839 with the help of his scribes.

Edited August 20, 2012 by calmoriah

[robuchan]

Now anger would be justified if it is proven that Joseph conned people with the book of mormon.

It's pretty simple to see the disconnect then. I believe it is proven.

[Monster]

And yet what are all these feelings based on? Speculation? Or proof?..that is the church is false.

It is up to the one making the claims to provide proof not the one questioning the claims. I can simply deny the reality of Joseph Smiths revelations and my job is done. It is up to you to provide the evidence that he spoke to God. It would be the same as me having to provide proof that leprechauns do not exist. You can not prove a negative. Besides even just the circumstantial evidence and proof leads one to believe that he was a con man or pious fraud. So again I say the burden of proof is on the believer. So if there is anger it may be that those who believe use false logic like this to discredit those with a more logical approach.

In reality there is anger on both sides at times. The believer is angry because their world view is threatened, and the non believer because they feel like they have been mislead.

[Tacenda]

It's not about what has, or has not been "proven" true or false. It's about perception.

Take the first vision. An ex-Mormon may state that they were lied to and were never told about the different versions. The Church suppressed this information. Is this true? Well, I absolutely believe that this person likely never heard about the different versions. It never came up in Sunday School or seminary (at least in my classes).

At the same time, we have detailed studies of the issue in BYU studies and from many years ago.

Also, you have to see this as a legitimate time of mourning. To the ex-Mormon they are leaving a huge portion of what defines them. It is completely natural for ex-members to feel anger/hurt etc... The question over whether that anger/hurt is justified is meaningless. Leaving the Church is an emotional, as well as intellectual decision I would think.

And their TBM families will be in constant mourning over their leaving and it would alter a once close relationship. Which is, IMO, not of God.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Tacenda

[Jeff Walsh]

I am trying to undestand why the anger about something that has not been proven: Joseph Smith conned people with the book of mormon. I don't see this as a proven fact. I would think that holding back the anger until that was proven would be the way to go. But if it is over speculation or even a critic interpretation of hypotheticals I don't understand the anger. That is my point. What are they angry about? A proven fact or speculation when it comes to the book of mormon.

People who choose to reject the testimony that they presumably received when they joined the Church, and now accuse Joseph Smith of conning them with the Book of Mormon surely are deluding themselves. They came into the Church of their own free will and choice, no one was holding a gun to their heads. So why blame Joseph Smith. The truths that he taught in Joseph Smith- History is there for the world to see and surely he was not trying to con anyone, he was simply conveying the truths he had been taught by Deity and Ministering Angels.

The ones who are conning people are surely Ex BYU professors, so called historians claiming to set before the people "facts" which every member of the Church need to know, and other excommunicated members of the Church with great big axes to grind, Korihor like individuals desperately trying to destroy the faith of members of the Church. I would encourage any member being affected by these anti- Christs to look into the sources from which these so called evidences are quoted, they will find that they invariably come from Mormonism Unveiled by E.D.Howe, Fawn Brodie's book, No One Knows My History, testimonies from John C Bennett, William Law. Philastus Hurlbut, Ezra Booth, Abner Cole, (Obadiah Dogberry), Jerald and Sandra Tanner, etc etc etc.

I am sure that when they write their books the bibliographies are so extensive that most people just accept them as being well researched without checking the sources.

I am new to this site so I am not sure of the perameters that are set so I will not name the authors of these books or the one publisher that most of them come from, but investigation will find that some of the authors are also directors of the publishing company and have a vested interest in the revenue coming from their books which are eagerly saught after by many anti-mormon groups who also are not interested in finding out if their "evidence" is sound.

So come on you champions of so called TRUTH show your true colours. Jeff Walsh

[yootaw]

Jeff

For me my doubts did not start with Joseph Smith and I do not blame him for my doubts. Not did my doubts come from the books on your reading list. I think that your representation of those who doubt, and how they come to doubt is overly simplistic.

[Jeff Walsh]

Jeff

For me my doubts did not start with Joseph Smith and I do not blame him for my doubts. Not did my doubts come from the books on your reading list. I think that your representation of those who doubt, and how they come to doubt is overly simplistic.

Thanks yootaw, Maybe I am being simplistic, but to my mind it does come down to a simple choice, do we believe in a God who is willing and ready to listen and to answer the prayers of sincere seekers after truth, or do we put our faith in philosophers or so called "higher thinkers" some who openly admit to being atheists, who's sole aim in life is to cast doubt and attempt to destroy the faith of others. Kind regards Jeff

[yootaw]

Jeff, you seem to be saying that an honest and sincere questioner can not come to the conclusion that the church is anything other than what it says that it is. That the only way to draw contrary conclusions is to be led to them by those with shady intentions. Am I understanding you correctly?

[cwald]

People who choose to reject the testimony that they presumably received when they joined the Church, and now accuse Joseph Smith of conning them with the Book of Mormon surely are deluding themselves. They came into the Church of their own free will and choice, no one was holding a gun to their heads. So why blame Joseph Smith. The truths that he taught in Joseph Smith- History is there for the world to see and surely he was not trying to con anyone, he was simply conveying the truths he had been taught by Deity and Ministering Angels.

The ones who are conning people are surely Ex BYU professors, so called historians claiming to set before the people "facts" which every member of the Church need to know, and other excommunicated members of the Church with great big axes to grind, Korihor like individuals desperately trying to destroy the faith of members of the Church. I would encourage any member being affected by these anti- Christs to look into the sources from which these so called evidences are quoted, they will find that they invariably come from Mormonism Unveiled by E.D.Howe, Fawn Brodie's book, No One Knows My History, testimonies from John C Bennett, William Law. Philastus Hurlbut, Ezra Booth, Abner Cole, (Obadiah Dogberry), Jerald and Sandra Tanner, etc etc etc.

I am sure that when they write their books the bibliographies are so extensive that most people just accept them as being well researched without checking the sources.

I am new to this site so I am not sure of the perameters that are set so I will not name the authors of these books or the one publisher that most of them come from, but investigation will find that some of the authors are also directors of the publishing company and have a vested interest in the revenue coming from their books which are eagerly saught after by many anti-mormon groups who also are not interested in finding out if their "evidence" is sound.

So come on you champions of so called TRUTH show your true colours. Jeff Walsh

And another thread derailed...only not by the exmormon or anti Mormon...

[tyler90az]

For me I was going to go out with class. Then I was attacked by the members of the church which naturally makes on angry at the church.

Also refrain from saying any statements close to this, "the devil is going to get you now."

[KevinG]

For me I was going to go out with class. Then I was attacked by the members of the church which naturally makes on angry at the church.

Also refrain from saying any statements close to this, "the devil is going to get you now."

It takes two to tango. When I announced I was joining the LDS church I was greeted with everything from surprise to anger by friends and family. My Methodist Pastor called me into his office to ask me why I was leaving Methodism. He hadn't interviewed me prior to that, ever. Some friends told me quite clearly I was going to hell.

Yet I am not filled with anger over Protestantism and my past despite some not so healthy reactions by family members and friends. To their credit most of them came around and now support my decision- but I had to be very patient with a few.

We are ultimately responsible for our own actions and reactions including moving on from the anger stage of unexpected change.

Edited August 20, 2012 by KevinG

[Jeff Walsh]

Jeff, you seem to be saying that an honest and sincere questioner can not come to the conclusion that the church is anything other than what it says that it is. That the only way to draw contrary conclusions is to be led to them by those with shady intentions. Am I understanding you correctly?

Yes Yootaw, that is exactly what I am saying, the authors and publishers of these books and articles have ulterior motives, and that is not to build up faith but to destroy it. Most of them claim to still believe in the Church but to my mind this is a subtafuge to give their writings a veneer of credibility. How could a person who tries to destroy the morals and stature of Joseph Smith, who claims that the Book of Mormon was not the word of God but stolen from another source, that portrays the modern leadership of the Church as liars and people who conspire to cover up some supposedly shady past history. If you knew these things were true would any honest man still claim allegience to the Church!!!!!!!. Who do they think they are kidding. Jeff

[DBMormon]

Why ME -

What does tricked mean? For example, if it came out that Thomas S. Monson knew that the church was false but kept the scam going, well, I can understand the being tricked sentiment. But...this hasn't happened.

Is being 'tricked' actually a speculative emotion based on speculation?

Do you think the prophet and apostles could not be what they think they are and still really think that's what they are?

For me it would be difficult to think I am Peter, or Moses, or Isaiah and just be a human being with no direct experiences with God.

Now I know it has happened before but when you add the last umpteen prophets and 100's of apostles..... that makes the odds much less. slim to none that they were all duped, that Joseph was duped, the witnesses were duped....

With that said one then due to occam's razor assumes because of odds that the deception was intentional. Once one feels it is intentional...... then anger is to be expected. This concept really separates us from any other faiths that do not claim direct revelation as they can say "how was I to know" where as we are telling people President Monson and the apostles speak to God. BIG DIFFERENCE!!!!

Edited August 20, 2012 by DBMormon

[ERayR]

He said he saw Angel Moroni, gold plates, First Vision, etc. I believed him.

And what irrefutable evidence do you have to the contrary?

[ERayR]

This is true up to a point. Did you really choose to believe or did you receive a spiritual experience that you couldn't deny?

Either way it is still a choice. IMNSHO

[ERayR]

I ask you for a million dollars for a charity. You give it to me, and find out I stole the money. You're angry.

Your parents tell you pizza is of the devil. You finally realize at age 50 it's not, you try it, and it's delicious. You're angry.

You grow up in a small town and the public schooling for K-12 all taught you the earth is flat and the sun revolves around the earth. You go off in the world and realize everything you believe about the world is false. You're angry.

Anger to some degree in any of these hypo's would be understandable. Hopefully the person in each hypo would be able to make sense of things and not let the anger consume them, but certainly it would be understandable. I don't think it would be presumed that any of them have a psychological need to hate and join with others that hate.

Anger is such a selfish emotion. It indicates you believe the world revolves around you. Me, me me me...

[robuchan]

Anger is such a selfish emotion. It indicates you believe the world revolves around you. Me, me me me...

I'm sure you never get angry?

I think you are probably right. I seem to angry from time to time, and it doesn't seem to do me much good.

So now have me moved in this thread from why exmo's get angry, to whether or not the anger is justified, and now to whether or not it's productive? I think I could concede pretty easily that it's not productive.

[DBMormon]

Another thought - If you were the parents of a deceased child who followed Jim Jones or Heavens Gate cults.... how would you feel?

Yes death is a separator here in comparison with the LDS church, but the real reason is they were deceived by someone being dishonest or at least crazy or misled. When you add on that if it is fasle, that groups are excluded wrongly (African lineage prior to 78' and LGBT community currently) and then add family members not being able to be part of marriages at the temple.... if this church isn't true (real plates, angels, prophets, and authority) Then you better believe those who are angry have reason and at least IMO justified.

[ERayR]

I find it more of a funny little thing rather than something to get angry about but I can imagine that there are people that had Mormons, motivated by their believes, do them serious emotional harm. That could lead to someone being angry at the Church for having motivated these people to do such things that they probably wouldn't otherwise do. Again, not me but I can understand it.

Friend, nothing but formal systems use seriously rigorous proofs. Scientific reasoning is based on induction, not deduction. Nothing about the physical world is proven either true or false but that doesn't mean you would be terribly irrational and probably mentally challenged if you jumped out the window thinking that there is no evidence (that's the word you should be using) that you will die if you jump.

There's plenty of evidence that the LDS Church is false because there is plenty of evidence that God doesn't exist, that evolution is correct, etc etc etc. There's also very bad evidence that the Church is true. This is what we would expect from a false hypothesis about the world. If we say something is true but isn't, we would expect it to be very bad evidence supporting it, and, given enough background knowledge, lots of evidence making it implausible (not "proving it" false). That certainly is not "all speculation". Do you know what critical thinking is? Yeah, that's not all speculation. Serious, critical and rigorous thinking isn't just speculation.

And yet all that evidence is subjective.

[ERayR]

The church claims to be the true church of christ. There is no proof that it is not. So, an exmormon line of argument still has no factual basis.

And what is wasted time? Going to church and taking part in fellowship does not seem to be a waste even after one has left the church. The church has saved many people from alcoholism, drug addiction etc.

The thing you are forgetting is you are dealing with one of the most selfish of emotions, anger. Anger is all about ones self and gives no consideration to anything else.

[teddyaware]

All of this talk of so called "evidence" that either proves of disproves the Church and its claims is beside the point. The way and manner by which one may gain a testimony of the Restored Church is encapsulated in Moroni's challenge. (Moroni 10:3-5)

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he wiill manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

These verses underscore the folly of those who seek to come to know the truth concerning the Church, its teachings and claims by walking away from the critical step of receiving personal revelation from God. It is by revelation that the truthfulness of the Lord's latter day work is made known. In fact, it is this doctrine of ongoing, continuous revelation from God that sets apart the Lord's Restored Church and Kingdom on earth from all other religions. Some may deride and mock this revelatory approach to coming to know the truthfulness of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as being too childish, simplistic, uncritical and unsophisticated. But carp as one might, this is God's own revealed approach to gaining an unshakeable testimony of the truth.

The Lord did his children a very big favor: He made the process of gaining a powerful and abiding testimony of the truth a very simple matter indeed. All one need do is go directly to God the Eternal Father for the answers. And if with diligence -- and an open, receptive mind -- one reads, studies and ponders the Keystone Scripture; and if the seeker after truth then asks God himself if The Book of Mormon is not true, with sincerity, real intent, and (this is key) real faith in Christ, he will reveal (by revelation) the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost. And remember, revelations that come by the power the Holy Ghost carry more convincing weight than if one were to speak in person with Christ face-to-face, but without the additional influence of the enlightening and confirmatory inspiration from the Holy Ghost.

My fear is that those who have lost or are loosing their testimonies -- because they would rather wallow in and embibe from the murky waters downstream of the living Apostles & Prophets and God's living word -- will one day face the Lord; and when they learn once and for all, from his own lips, that The Book of Mormon is true, and that Joseph Smith is his true prophet, they will protest their innocence and say, "How were we supposed to know? The 'evidence' against the truthfulness of the Church seemed so compelling and convincing!" Then the Lord might say, "Why didn't you go and do as my servant Moroni asked, and why didn't you realize, even though you were admonished with tender love over and over again, that the cunning wiles of the devil -- that great deceiver -- can only be discerned and overcome by revelation from heaven? Through the merits of the great sacrifice of my Only Begotten Son, I gave you the blessed opportunity -- within your own stewardships, callings, and families -- to be a prophet in your own right and, if you were willing, to know the truth of all things, but ye would not. Enter thou into the mansion which I have prepared for you. Even that kingdom reserved for those 'who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.' and in this place you will receive of my glory, but not a fulness thereof."

As is often the case, The Apostle Paul says it best in Ephesians 4:

11 And he gave some, apostles and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of

the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight

of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But (the apostles and prophets) speaking the truth (revelation) in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head,

even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth (ongoing revelation given

to all the members of the Church), according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the

body unto the edifying of itself in love .

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind

(i.e. attempting to gain a knowledge of the truth by going to sources of information disconnected from the living

apostles and prophets).

By revelation, I know the Church is true. Staying close to the Lord by feeling and expressing genuine love for him, feeling and expressing similar love to your fellow man (specially to those of the household of faith), diligently studying his word, keeping his commandments, and staying close to and following the living Apostles and Prophets is the way to enlightenment, steadfast testimony, peace and safety. Have any of you who have lost your faith ever asked yourselves if, just perhaps, you're now being tossed to and fro by the sleight of men (and the devil), and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive?

Final thoughts: I would also wonder if those of you who have 'lost your testimonies' tend to be cynical, negative thinking people in general. Honestly ask yourselves this -- Am I negative, contrary and cynical in the other aspects and avenues of my life? If the answer is in the affirmative, I'd be very careful to not trust your thoughts, feelings and visceral reactions to things pertaining to the Restored Gospel. An unhappy, depressed mind sees things in warped, distorted ways.

Once you are able to find true emotional peace, stability, happiness, positivity and fervent love for your family, friends, and for the rest of the human race in general, the issues you are stuggling with will become much clearer. Negative minds tend to be self-destructive, and the adversay of men's souls knows well how to take advantage of such. It would seem to me the mere fact that those of you who have lost your testimonies are still here on this LDS discussion board -- like ghosts who can't seem to leave the locations of their earthly tramas -- is indicative of your depressed state. Counseling with a good mental health professional may be in order. Before some of you jump to a state of outrage over that last remark, you need to know I speak as one who -- for a season in my life -- suffered from depression and self-destructive negative thinking. So, you see, I speak from personal experience when I say unhappiness, negative thinking and depression warp the way you see things. After getting help and working hard in faith to recover, I'm happy to say "old Ted" is back, better than ever. I'm living proof it can be done. My very best to each of you, my brethren and sisters.