Apologetics Of The "Swedish Rescue"

[volgadon]

Religion always says CONVERT OR DIE HERETIC.

Does science deal in ill-considered absolutes?

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Does science deal in ill-considered absolutes?

No, it can't do so.....its purely democratic. ALL people can be involved with it discovering and checking on absolutely everyone else. There can be no social absolutes in science. It does not have the power to say reason or DIE, and then carry out the death sentence as religion has been able to do. Sure, it can ridicule ridiculous propositions, lousy results, bad experiments, and biased findings, that is the point......it continually works on improvement, whereas religion continually works on belief and obedience, and threats, whether in this life or the next. If ya don't believe and accept in THIS life, yer simply TOAST in the next one. Science has absolutely no comparison whatsoever with this kind of thinking based entirely on irrational fear and suspicion and hate and power seeking. NONE. When the Soviets back in the 1950's launched Sputnik, American scientists did NOT declare war on them and go after them militarily, we improved ourselves and advanced and blessed the nation with many more ideas than just space travel. We did not go destroy their culture, nation, and lives in wicked warfare, we IMPROVED ourselves. Scientists do not send missionaries out across the world trying to convert or kill other scientists of other nationalities, they all co-operate (ideally remember, I understand there are VERY human scientists) across national ideologies and work together to solve mysteries of life, the universe, our world, etc., whether about weather, animals, social interaction of humans, neuroscience, etc.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Kerry A. Shirts

[volgadon]

No

Then you might wish to reconsider your use of "always."

When the Soviets back in the 1950's launched Sputnik, American scientists did NOT declare war on them and go after them militarily, we improved ourselves and advanced and blessed the nation with many more ideas than just space travel. We did not go destroy their culture, nation, and lives in wicked warfare, we IMPROVED ourselves.

The good old days of the Cold Non-War but Self-Improvment and Advancment Time.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

"Ideally"? If we're capable of recognizing that there are "VERY human scientists", we should be able to allow for fallible religionists.

It's a human trait to go to war and claim it's for a greater good using whatever rhetoric is handy. Religion does not have a monopoly on stupidity and irrationality and mindless tradition and evil (though it's got plenty of that). We're all humans; there's just as much groupthink going on in every community, religious or non. We're not going to find some Utopian community if we just trade our religious friends for scientists (or vice versa). Frankly, unless we've got our own Large Hadron Collider in our backyard with which to reproduce the experiments of some scientists, we definitely have to take some things on "faith".

Have we reproduced every last finding made by John Dalton and Niels Bohr and Galileo Galilei and Ada Lovelace or anyone else? If not, then we're taking their findings on faith. That it's hypothetically possible to check up on what they did is great, but it's simply impossible to do so for every last piece of data in any finite lifespan; human communities have to rely on faith to some degree in order to function.

If folks read some of my previous posts on this board, they'll find that I'm a fanatical supporter of the scientific method; science is great, because it's capable of verification and change. But then, the very first chapter of the D&C says that insofar as we err and seek out wisdom, we'll be corrected. Alma has a great discourse on "cause for belief" that parallels Kuhn's paradigm-shifting in the language of scripture. We're still at a very low rung on the ladder of our eternal progression. Religion is not a magical panacea that solves all the problems in the world, but neither is science. They're both administered by very fallible humans. Replace a few names, and the rhetoric seen in the war between science and religion would be indistinguishable from that of the most fundamentalist of revivalist preachers. It's replacing one extreme with another.

I am all for science, and I wish more of our members had a better grounding in philosophy. Brigham Young said that there is no such thing as a miracle except to those who do not understand, and Mormonism is completely compatible with the materialist worldview posited by science. I'm constantly getting accused of being a Neo-Orthodox Liberal cultural Mormon because I don't believe in a literal Flood or Adam and Eve, among other (not particularly vital-to-our-religion) things.

At the same time, throwing out Faith with the bathwater is not the solution to the problems in religion. What we should be concentrating on is better science and better religion, not absolutist hyperbole.

[CASteinman]

Imho, one can't even begin to have faith without some intellectual basis.

I think it takes hope.

And when Prophets put it in the order of "Faith Hope and Love", I feel a bit confused. I think it should go something like: Hope, Faith and Love.

[wenglund]

At the same time, throwing out Faith with the bathwater is not the solution to the problems in religion. What we should be concentrating on is better science and better religion, not absolutist hyperbole.

I am thinking we should be concentrating on the ends of becoming better people and forming better relationships. That way, bettering the means that is science and religion will naturally follow.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited July 26, 2012 by wenglund

[wenglund]

I am thinking we should be concentrating on the ends of becoming better people and forming better relationships. That way, bettering the means that is science and religion will naturally follow.

I mention this, not because any of you personally may be unaware of this, but because with people like myself who continue on as adults to have a child-like passion for learning, we are quite susceptible to being sucked deep into the quest for knowledge, to the point that we may loose sight of things that matter most in life, and become quite imbalanced and perhaps even sacrifice the most important things. In a way, I experienced this early on in my life, and it took the loving act of an old farmer and his wife to properly reorient me and get my prioritis and perspective straight (I briefly recount the story HERE)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Closet Doubter]

Imho, one can't even begin to have faith without some intellectual basis.

In the MTC many years ago we had a leader that told us "Inspiration without information is like a Jack-O-Lantern, a dim light in an empty head". Quite often I about bite my tongue off in order to keep from responding when somebody makes a statement at church that demonstrates a complete lack of any intellectual understanding.

[Craig Paxton]

Making the rounds in the anti/ex mormon world are the "Swedish Rescue Papers", a set of advice and instructions to the Church in Sweden on how to help members encountering "new" and troubling information about the Church. Seems to be spearheaded by Marlin K. Jensen. Among the references and helps given are the following:

CHD = Church History Department

So I thought you might be interested in seeing that FAIR and MI are represented here. I also notice one of my favorites, Bickmore's Restoring the Ancient Church, is one of the recommended books.

mormonthink contains much antiMormon material and conclusions and this is a translation from the Swedish of ostensibly LDS materials so buyer beware. This particular page is rather benign wth the antiMormon conclusions at the bottom.

I have a few simple questions:

Ok...with the understanding that all of this information that has been passed around the Swedish membership is just anti-mormon lies, falsehoods and exaggerations...Soooooo

#1 Why does this so-called anti/ex-Mormon material have such power over Swedish believers IF the church has been so forthcoming with this information as is so often claimed by members of this board? Nothing has ever been hidden from the church membership, right? It’s all available and is regularly taught in church settings, right? So shouldn't all of these issues be yesterday’s harmless news...why/how is it having such an impact now? It should be like water rolling off the back of a duck...How could it be "new" and "troubling"

#2 Why is difficult church history that supposedly has not been hidden from these church members being referred to as anti/ex-Mormon material? In other words how can church history be considered anti-Mormon?

#3 IF all lies, exaggeration and misinformation...why do these once believing members find this information more credible than the truth claims supplied by the church? I mean the church hasn't hidden it from the Swedish member’s right? It's always been available and it is after all...just faith promoting church history after all...how could it hold such negative (from your perspective) power?

Edited July 26, 2012 by Craig Paxton

[wenglund]

I have a few simple questions:

Ok...with the understanding that all of this information that has been passed around the Swedish membership is just anti-mormon lies, falsehoods and exaggerations...Soooooo

#1 Why does this so-called anti/ex-Mormon material have such power over Swedish believers IF the church has been so forthcoming with this information as is so often claimed by members of this board? Nothing has ever been hidden from the church membership, right? It’s all available and is regularly taught in church settings, right? So shouldn't all of these issues be yesterday’s harmless news...why/how is it having such an impact now? It should be like water rolling off the back of a duck...How could it be "new" and "troubling"

#2 Why is difficult church history that supposedly has not been hidden from these church members being referred to as anti/ex-Mormon material? In other words how can church history be considered anti-Mormon?

#3 IF all lies, exaggeration and misinformation...why do these once believing members find this information more credible than the truth claims supplied by the church? I mean the church hasn't hidden it from the Swedish member’s right? It's always been available and it is after all...just faith promoting church history after all...how could it hold such negative (from your perspective) power?

The so-called negative power isn't so much a function of the availability historical information or the lack thereof, but rather a function of distraction. Some people's minds can get fixated enough on certain minor and irrelevant and sensationalistic aspects of Church history as to draw their attention away from what is really important and what the Church is really about. Instead of keeping their mind's-eye centered on Christ and becoming like him--which is the "way" of spiritual progression, it is distracted elsewhere and in ways that too oft lack proper perspective and priority and run contrary to how the gospel is designed to work. Hence, their faith is shaken and sometimes lost.

Sadly, because of their fixation on the distractions, it isn't always sufficient to suggest they reorient their mind's-eye on Christ (believe me, I have tried it often here with little success), but necessitates to some extent addressing the distraction in a way that may ease the fixation and once again allow them room for faith--though, even this will at times not suffice.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited July 27, 2012 by wenglund

[volgadon]

I have a few simple questions:

Ok...with the understanding that all of this information that has been passed around the Swedish membership is just anti-mormon lies, falsehoods and exaggerations...Soooooo

#1 Why does this so-called anti/ex-Mormon material have such power over Swedish believers IF the church has been so forthcoming with this information as is so often claimed by members of this board? Nothing has ever been hidden from the church membership, right? It’s all available and is regularly taught in church settings, right? So shouldn't all of these issues be yesterday’s harmless news...why/how is it having such an impact now? It should be like water rolling off the back of a duck...How could it be "new" and "troubling"

#2 Why is difficult church history that supposedly has not been hidden from these church members being referred to as anti/ex-Mormon material? In other words how can church history be considered anti-Mormon?

#3 IF all lies, exaggeration and misinformation...why do these once believing members find this information more credible than the truth claims supplied by the church? I mean the church hasn't hidden it from the Swedish member’s right? It's always been available and it is after all...just faith promoting church history after all...how could it hold such negative (from your perspective) power?

You are missing a crucial piece of the puzzle- inter-personal dynamics. Without going into too much detail, a respected member of the LDS community lost their faith and have been vigorously pushing their new views on the members.

[rodheadlee]

I have a few simple questions:

Ok...with the understanding that all of this information that has been passed around the Swedish membership is just anti-mormon lies, falsehoods and exaggerations...Soooooo

#1 Why does this so-called anti/ex-Mormon material have such power over Swedish believers IF the church has been so forthcoming with this information as is so often claimed by members of this board? Nothing has ever been hidden from the church membership, right? It’s all available and is regularly taught in church settings, right? So shouldn't all of these issues be yesterday’s harmless news...why/how is it having such an impact now? It should be like water rolling off the back of a duck...How could it be "new" and "troubling"

#2 Why is difficult church history that supposedly has not been hidden from these church members being referred to as anti/ex-Mormon material? In other words how can church history be considered anti-Mormon?

#3 IF all lies, exaggeration and misinformation...why do these once believing members find this information more credible than the truth claims supplied by the church? I mean the church hasn't hidden it from the Swedish member’s right? It's always been available and it is after all...just faith promoting church history after all...how could it hold such negative (from your perspective) power?

It's a world wide Harvest, separating the wheat from the chaff. It's Satan leading those who will follow from the Church. People are setting aside their spiritual experiences, their conversations with Heavenly Father through the Holy Spirit, their faith that the Church is lead by Jesus Christ for the knowledge of men.

2 Nephi 9

28 O that cunning ^aplan of the evil one! O the ^bvainness, and the frailties, and the ^cfoolishness of men! When they are ^dlearned they think they are ^ewise, and they ^fhearken not unto the ^gcounsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their ^hwisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

29 But to be ^alearned is good if they ^bhearken unto the ^ccounsels of God.

[Craig Paxton]

You are missing a crucial piece of the puzzle- inter-personal dynamics. Without going into too much detail, a respected member of the LDS community lost their faith and have been vigorously pushing their new views on the members.

Sooo...IF this influencial person is spewing lies and half truths...couldn't his/her lies be dismissed and easliy deverted? Certainly lies wouldn't have much power over truth...or am I missing something?

[CASteinman]

Personally, I have often wished I had a great faith.

Based upon my personal experience I would say this: If you pray for it diligently, every day for an extended time, with a real desire, you will be blessed with this. That was my experience. I suppose your mileage may vary but I suspect not.

[CASteinman]

Sooo...IF this influencial person is spewing lies and half truths...couldn't his/her lies be dismissed and easliy deverted? Certainly lies wouldn't have much power over truth...or am I missing something?

It is the nature of influence that it is exercised and people are "influenced". Otherwise the person would not be influential.

This would seem to be obvious upon inspection.

[Pahoran]

Sooo...IF this influencial person is spewing lies and half truths...couldn't his/her lies be dismissed and easliy deverted? Certainly lies wouldn't have much power over truth...or am I missing something?

Always.

Here's something we're not missing: whenever you say "Sooo..." and follow it up with a bunch of if-thens, you are never asking for information and always arguing for a position that no actual information will influence.

Regards,

Pahoran

[CASteinman]

I can't recall who it is, but I think this all came about because a BYU Professor (Don't recall who) started publishing Anti-Mormon literature from the USA in Swedish.

[volgadon]

Sooo...IF this influencial person is spewing lies and half truths...couldn't his/her lies be dismissed and easliy deverted? Certainly lies wouldn't have much power over truth...or am I missing something?

For one, it depends on how clumsy the lie or lier. Another depends on how (and how deeply) the subject has been studied and how the accusations have been worded. A lot of the accusations made, in this case, really aren't very difficult to refute. The Swedish Rescue may be urgent, but it is not a desperate, last-ditch effort.

Even so, people will still believe in all sorts of lies. For example, many otherwise intelligent and educated people in western Ukraine still believe in blood libels against Jews.

[tyler90az]

This paper does not look like something that is suppose to go to leadership. It looks like a paper that they want apostates to read. Is anyone else thinking intentional leak? If so, good move, as it was a faith builder for me.

[BCSpace]

Sooo...IF this influencial person is spewing lies and half truths...couldn't his/her lies be dismissed and easliy deverted? Certainly lies wouldn't have much power over truth...

Certainly.

or am I missing something?

Despite the truth, people often believe what they want to hear. This anti Mormon behavior is predicted in scripture (2 Timothy 4:3) and is illustrated in the likes of John Dehlin for example. One could certainly just as well ask why false doctrines and philosophies had so much influence over the early Christians; most of the Church in fact at a very early time:

This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

2 Timothy 1:15

Edited July 29, 2012 by BCSpace

[CASteinman]

The so-called negative power isn't so much a function of the availability historical information or the lack thereof, but rather a function of distraction. Some people's minds can get fixated enough on certain minor and irrelevant and sensationalistic aspects of Church history as to draw their attention away from what is really important and what the Church is really about. Instead of keeping their mind's-eye centered on Christ and becoming like him--which is the "way" of spiritual progression, it is distracted elsewhere and in ways that too oft lack proper perspective and priority and run contrary to how the gospel is designed to work. Hence, their faith is shaken and sometimes lost.

Sadly, because of their fixation on the distractions, it isn't always sufficient to suggest they reorient their mind's-eye on Christ (believe me, I have tried it often here with little success), but necessitates to some extent addressing the distraction in a way that may ease the fixation and once again allow them room for faith--though, even this will at times not suffice.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Not to make this a political discussion, but it has been demonstrated repeatedly in various double blind studies and statistical analyses that negative campaign ads -- despite all the so called hatred for negative campaigning -- works.

Negative ads will move poll numbers. Weirdly, positive ads barely do or do not move the numbers at all.

For some reason, people are more susceptible to negativity. A shame, really.

[BCSpace]

Not to make this a political discussion, but it has been demonstrated repeatedly in various double blind studies and statistical analyses that negative campaign ads -- despite all the so called hatred for negative campaigning -- works.

It does. The constant yellow journalistic drumbeat of anti Mormonism, whether it's tracts out in the foyer of some church or the consistent highlighting of the Mormon religion of someone who is a criminal or a weirdo, does much to keep people from actually listening to us.

[tyler90az]

In my ward you would have three callings!!!! lol

Then I would be complaining about having too many jk...

You had to jinks me I am almost to three.