Is Being Gay A Sin? Does It Need Amelioration?

[SamIam]

And yet the scriptures describe man as being carnal...so admitting it seems like one is simply believing what the scriptures say, which can include believing that eventually through God's work and grace we can put aside the carnal man.

Close enough for government work...

[CASteinman]

I don't think we know ourselves that well yet to be able to make that prediction.

Imagine the time when we will be with friends, family, spouses -- and our thoughts will be known to them. We will have to love each other a lot more.

[Calm]

Imagine the time when we will be with friends, family, spouses -- and our thoughts will be known to them. We will have to love each other a lot more.

The thought doesn't particularly appeal to me now...until I start thinking of how far we will all have come prior to having that ability. Of course I will love being known and knowing others in such a way. Who would not want to know the details of the thought of a perfect individual, to be able to share in their knowledge, in their perception, in their ability to enjoy life, in their sense of humour?

[SamIam]

This is ridiculous. What is makes this ridiculous is the assumption that someone has possibly made a conscious choice to live with 'sinful' attraction. You seem to suggest that by no longer 'struggling' with SSA and leaving it all to the Lord that an individual is choosing to sin. Let me be explicitly clear: I AM NOT SINNING BECAUSE I AM RECOGNIZE MY SSA AND LEAVE ALL REMEDY UP TO THE LORD. To suggest otherwise is presumptuous. It is moreso presumptuous that you can turn SSA on/off over any space of time like a lightswitch. Furthermore, based on my personal experience and opinion that I was BORN with SSA you would seem to suggest also that I was born with sin. This is, as Selek would say, unmitigated rot.

You are NOT the authority on my 'sinful' attraction. I would like to know if Pres. Monson would agree with your logic. What is evident of your position is that it lacks grace and mercy. God Loveth His Children, in all the times I've read it, has never suggested what you do.

I think the challenge is you have come to believe that in some way that your particular burden is greater than anyone else who must admit to having potentials that are less than Godly. The sin for all of us not directly related to whatever our condition is but is instead the fact that we will not exercise adequate obedience to be gifted the faith to overcome our carnal state.

[Calm]

I think the challenge is you have come to believe that in some way that your particular burden is greater than anyone else who must admit to having potentials that are less than Godly.

I would disagree very much. I see nothing in how Valentinus describes himself and his expectations that would lead me to that conclusion. Quite the opposite. Edited July 19, 2012 by calmoriah

[Mansquatch]

It seems strange to me that we call someone gay after they are only tempted to such behavior. Is someone who is tempted to commit adultery an adulterer, tempted to steal - a thief, tempted to kill - a murderer even if they do not give in to the temptation? I don't like it. Until someone commits an action that can be labeled as any of those I just call them tempted, aka "human".

[Robert F. Smith]

Sorry Samlam,

I mistakenly formulated the OP so that it appeared that california boy's comments were by me. I have reformulated them here and there as well.

Bob

Quote california boy

It is where the church tells bishops to send gay men in the church. It is the teachings that the church wants those that are gay to receive. Evergreen is not David Matheson's organization, it is the churches under priesthood leadership. As far as I know, Matheson holds no "position" in Evergreen.

california boy, on 18 July 2012 , said:

The church states that it doesn't know how or why a person is gay. In reality no one knows why someone is gay, even gay organizations. What I do know and what every gay person knows is that they are wired to be attracted to the same sex in every sense as someone who is straight is wired to be attracted to someone of the opposite sex. How it happened or why it happened is really irrelevant. Does it help a blind man to see better if he is given an explanation as to why he is blind?

california boy, on 18 July 2012, said:

The hard questions are how do you deal with being all alone your whole life. How do you live without any close relationships with anyone? How do you travel this road all alone when the biggest drive in anyone's life is to share their life with a companion that they can love, trust, and honor. What will this life of loneliness lead to after we die? "it is not good for man to be alone" rings in every gay man’s head daily.

california boy, on 18 July 2012, said:

I wouldn't presume to tell the brethren what to believe. But if asked, I would ask them to prayerfully consider the opportunity to allow gay marriage in the church. Yes the Bible condemns lying with a man and calls it an abomination. It also calls adultery an abomination whose punishment is death. It also calls fornication an abomination punishable by death. Sex outside of marriage gets treated the exact same way across the board.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Robert F. Smith

[Calm]

It seems strange to me that we call someone gay after they are only tempted to such behavior. Is someone who is tempted to commit adultery an adulterer, tempted to steal - a thief, tempted to kill - a murderer even if they do not give in to the temptation? I don't like it. Until someone commits an action that can be labeled as any of those I just call them tempted, aka "human".

I would agree, but would also point out that feeling homosexual attraction is a behaviour and even if the feelings are not physically or mentally acted upon, some may see it as enough of a behaviour to count as an attribute, much like the feelings of being shy or optomistic may not be readily apparent in external behaviour, but would still be seen as an attribute by an individual who knows how s/he feels or at least interprets her/his feelings this way. Edited July 19, 2012 by calmoriah

[Damien the Leper]

I think the challenge is you have come to believe that in some way that your particular burden is greater than anyone else who must admit to having potentials that are less than Godly. The sin for all of us not directly related to whatever our condition is but is instead the fact that we will not exercise adequate obedience to be gifted the faith to overcome our carnal state.

Once again, unmitigated rot. My burden is no heavier than that of anyone eles's. To say either way would be ridiculous. My sin is not accepting that I'm attracted to other men. To assume so shows deep rooted ignorance and that the person claiming and assuming so may have bigger issues than those that are evidenced by perceptions such as this.

[CASteinman]

Once again, unmitigated rot. My burden is no heavier than that of anyone eles's.

It might be. It might not. I don't think we can effectively make such comparisons. I don't think we are wise enough.

I know a bit how to envy other people. I also know a bit about how to feel sorry for myself. I don't think, given the chance, I would swap my problems with most people. On the other hand, I would not wish them on anyone else either.

Are they more or less than someone else's? Maybe. I don't have the wisdom to say.

[Mudcat]

Is being gay a sin? Does being gay require amelioration? Can it be done? If so, how is that to be done? Are the methods of Evergreen and NorthStar adequate or effective? Can they be improved? If so, how?

Hi Robert,

Speaking as an Evangelical Christian, I don't see that any clear reading of the Bible would suggest that homosexual activity isn't a sin. It clearly seems to be one among many.

As to the practices of Evergreen or Northstar, I haven't a clue.

We are a sinful people. Seems all of us have a particular sin that we battle with the most, though it's likely there are many sins that tempt us to fail. If there is an actual debate on the matter of homosexual practices being a sin or not, I have never seen any persuasive scriptural evidence to even recognize the argument.

I don't see any good reason to single it out. It seems many who accept their sin want support from others to accept it as righteousness. In the end it doesn't matter what others think, it is Christ who holds the judgment seat and I am afraid there is no compelling argument that can be offered for the acceptance of any sin as righteousness.

Those who would say their sin is justified have no legitamate stand, I think.

As to amerloriation, we all fail and have our struggles. The best remedy is to recognize our failings.

We all fall and some of us just lay where we have fallen and that's it. I don't think Jesus was kidding when he said "take up your cross and follow me". In Matt 16:24 it's clear that to do so, is a path of self denial. I think we need to realize that and take it for what it is. We can't give Christ anything unless we deny ourselves something. I would further this by saying that the only way we can give Christ anything is through the power he has given us.

If we rise from failure, it isn't on our own steam.

I am thankful for a God that has created us with the ability to choose Him rather than ourselves. It's scary that in spite of what He has done that we so often pursue what we want rather than what He wants for us.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[Robert F. Smith]

Samlam,

I hope you don't mind my selecting out several items from your long and very thoughtful disquisition:

Bob

The point is equal attention effort and obligation rests upon both sides of this debate as it technically is not the act of marriage that is weighed but honoring the covenant.

Still, I accept that for the hetero, it will appear a higher chance of success in this endeavor as at least the choice of partner is consistent with the hope of being able to maintain the boundaries in proper form. Still, in both equations attraction is not the defining element of keeping the law – obedience is, and for many hetero’s it is as difficult to honor their choices in marriage as it is for the SSA group. Many will be shocked, I suspect that took the attitude on no holds barred behind marriage doors was irrelevant as long as partners were in agreement and it was a traditional marriage.

Amelioration:

Yes and no. Yes, in those instances where it can be ameliorated. Every reduction in emphasis should help diminish the degree of suffering that is associated with SSA. I am convinced that in truth there are far more in the SSA group that would never have acted out upon such feelings but for the degree of influence currently found in society – 60 years ago they would have never considered the option. Instead not all but most, in their teenage years, would have acted out on the typical breaches of obedience that would have been sanctioned according to social norms for disobedient behavior. Blueberry Hill was working out just fine for the majority of these. The fact that most who now partake have a wider venue of experimental options that are within societal norms of rebellion only means that the experimentation of youth will find itself involved in creating channels of brain development that find the entrenched desires of the flesh embedded in behaviors that will require almost impossible strength to overcome. Even if the acts never take place but the fantasy does it still alters our perspectives in harmful ways. Point it is the same for hetero as SSA on this matter. All who engage in any of the various acts if impropriety, be it hetero or SSA based, to the point of embedding them into their psyche will spend years getting them out. Hormones are exceptionally powerful shapers of the mind and psyche. It is not just being married that frees one from the power of these influences but it is honoring the covenant.

Lust obscures the feelings of attraction when it is acted on during those key developmental years of adolescence. Since lust is the origin of these desires, until it is conquered all baggage that hangs from it that we have meddled in will continue to plague us until lust is overcome. As well the hormonal power of influence will create chemical alterations at anytime one capitulates to them – it just seems more prominent in youth, not so much now as when I was younger.

I heartily agree with you here, although the idea of "conquering" these lusts for those who have become habituated to them may not be the correct approach. As for those who are bedeviled by any sort of addiction, depending on your own self (will power) to conquer such desires may not be adequate. Most successful programs work when the addict admits that he cannot do it himself, and turns to a higher power and to assistance from others in the same boat (a sponsor). The Holy Spirit is the most dependable source of power in such cases, and one might very well want to pray in the fashion of D&C 121:45-46,

Let virtue garnish my thoughts unceasingly,

that I may stand in thy presence with confidence,

and that the Holy Ghost may be my constant companion . . .

Finally, of this group that may actually possess a natural sense of attraction to the same gender from birth and their subsequent natural development, and I do think that a very small number. Is there amelioration? I have no experience in this matter and cannot truly say. I do not know how to make it any more right by them that to simply say, I don’t know why this was your lot to bear, I am sorry for it. I cannot imagine the sense of hopelessness that must accompany the conflict within, however with the Lord all things are possible.

When I served in this position, I referred people to various help agencies as need arose. Often, I had people with identical problems. Some I could help with my level of counseling and others, it was simply that I could not reach beyond their rebellious desire to do things their way that prevented their assistance. These I would send to other venues and I never once had one make the kind of improvement that the repentant ones made.

A bishop is well suited to work with the repentant in most cases, but when that is not the case we send them to the ones who are suited for working with the rebellious who wish to technically remain such and would like to ease the burden that their rebelliousness generates. Now, I realize that statement is going to cause all sorts of angst to pop up in some people, my apologies. I also realize in a few cases it is a gross over-simplification for the individual sufferer but for the greater number, I believe it applies. I do believe that it is possible that those agencies and venues could possibly get someone to the point of getting to the point a bishop can help them by helping them distance from certain behaviors – it just was never my experience during the timeframe I worked with such individuals.

Still, my feeling was that when I had to send them elsewhere, I was unimpressed with the individuals providing the care. When I had follow-ups and discussions with the providers, of the material we could discuss it was my perception they were hiding their ignorance behind the chapter headings in their college texts books. They had no true knowledge they simply were current with the stated treatments for the stated conditions and their confidence was because that was what they were trained to do. However, we sent them to those venues precisely because of that same reason. They said they had a solution, we knew we did not.

They always say men and women are so different that it is impossible for one to understand the other. I have always disagreed. While I could look at the trinkets on the mantel that were so precious to her, in my early years I could not fathom the attraction. However, one day an epiphany, as I was in my greenhouse, potting up a 6 inch exceptionally rare caudiciform from South Africa that I had paid over 400.00 dollars for I realized how she felt. As I handled and sensed how I cherished this new addition to my eclectic collection of rare plant species, I knew exactly how she felt. They acted upon her just like this precious item acted on me. It could have been a crescent wrench or a gun for a different type of man but we are not so different. I changed about how I looked at all things my wife held dear from that day forth. (mostly) It wasn’t really that I didn’t understand it was simply that the object of her affection was different and that was what I did not want to acknowledge until that moment. I hope that holds for a sensitive hetero as is does for a sensitive SSA person.

When we get to mature along normal lines of advancement in our lives the phases of our existence seem to pass reasonably well. Some more tumultuous than others but as long as we get to pass the stage we proceed to the next. However, take a young person, who is sexually abused as a child, they did not get out of the childhood phase like they should. In fact they do not leave the phase exactly but linger there in the tarnished state for its failure to gracefully pass as it should have while they add to it the subsequent tarnished perspectives that are influenced adversely for the uncompleted phase.

I once counseled with a woman in her 60’s that had never been married. She was the only women of that age I ever met that lamented the unrequited lustful desires of the flesh. She was like a teenager for the fact the phase had never been normally negotiated in the course of her life. She was an excellent person but was stuck also in the phase of the church that thinks that it is by what she could do that would save her in the end not realizing the power of the atonement if she would alter the focus.

For the gay person that must pass through an unnaturally incomplete phase of never feeling intimate companionship this is going to be a great battle. However it, again, is the same battle that all of us have. It does not ultimately matter if you are gay or hetero, the power that heals is belief in Christ. Do not hear the words doing all you can, or working harder, or doing more. It is stop with all of these things. It is simply accept. Born again is an actual state of change. It is the state where the person is changed as a person. An excessive focus on doing, which is so prevalent, in all of the church is as condemnatory to a hetero as a gay man or women. (not practicing). It is not that we do not do but that the focus on doing brings us under the burden of the law. There is no treatment, counseling, advice that exceeds the equal requirement that we all have to be born again.

I have pages and pages of quotes that focus on the fact that born again is not near as common in the church as most believe. The gift of the Holy Ghost has to be received and that for many takes years of their lives. None of us get there by focusing on what we don’t have, or are missing, or our loneliness, that focus obscures the opportunity. Broken heart, contrite spirit and then pleading with the Lord, believing that it will come seems the only way. For some this is a lifetime endeavor, many never get there. Nonetheless, your burden is no heavier than mine or any others for the struggle it is to simply accept what Christ freely offers. It is a major paradigm shift in thinking where we realize there is nothing anyone can do, no healing that can be provided t really and genuinely address the loneliness that all have in the separation from God. Conquer what separates us from that and we are never alone again.

As to the church benefiting from this type of change, this is the saddest part of this entire message that you have written. When we begin to question against the obvious integrated principles of the gospel and parse out ones unique to ourselves, it illustrates how already the mind is being molded by the adversary to question what deep inside we already know.

However, it is the same for all of us. We each have a magnificent burden in overcoming ourselves so that we can exercise the simple choice to accept the born again experience that is offered by Jesus Christ – but therein lies the end of our loneliness and the beginning of our healing.

Very wise words. Now, since you have actually counseled people in these difficult circumstances, could you imagine the design of a program which could ameliorate their suffering -- along the lines you have just suggested?

[Damien the Leper]

Hi Robert,

Speaking as an Evangelical Christian, I don't see that any clear reading of the Bible would suggest that homosexual activity isn't a sin. It clearly seems to be one among many.

As to the practices of Evergreen or Northstar, I haven't a clue.

We are a sinful people. Seems all of us have a particular sin that we battle with the most, though it's likely there are many sins that tempt us to fail. If there is an actual debate on the matter of homosexual practices being a sin or not, I have never seen any persuasive scriptural evidence to even recognize the argument.

I don't see any good reason to single it out. It seems many who accept their sin want support from others to accept it as righteousness. In the end it doesn't matter what others think, it is Christ who holds the judgment seat and I am afraid there is no compelling argument that can be offered for the acceptance of any sin as righteousness.

Those who would say their sin is justified have no legitamate stand, I think.

As to amerloriation, we all fail and have our struggles. The best remedy is to recognize our failings.

We all fall and some of us just lay where we have fallen and that's it. I don't think Jesus was kidding when he said "take up your cross and follow me". In Matt 16:24 it's clear that to do so, is a path of self denial. I think we need to realize that and take it for what it is. We can't give Christ anything unless we deny ourselves something. I would further this by saying that the only way we can give Christ anything is through the power he has given us.

If we rise from failure, it isn't on our own steam.

I am thankful for a God that has created us with the ability to choose Him rather than ourselves. It's scary that in spite of what He has done that we so often pursue what we want rather than what He wants for us.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

Mudcat,

Robert wasn't questioning whether the sexual behavior is a sin. He is asking if BEING gay or having SSA is a sin?

[wenglund]

What about the loneliness which gay people complain about? Isn't that a significant problem? Could some program be devised to deal with that and enrich the lives of people who must spend their lives in a celibate state?

As someone who has been celibate by default for nearly six decades, yet who has developed numerous loving, fulfilling, non-sexual relationship with members of both sexes, and I don't feel and haven't felt lonely, it is clear to me that if someone is lonely it is because they are overly restrictive in the kinds of relationship they are willing to develop, and/or they are deficient in relationship-development skills. I have found that loneliness can easily be solved by focusing on being generally loving to others.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Robert F. Smith]

california boy, on 18 July 2012, said:

The hard questions are how do you deal with being all alone your whole life.

Many people face the problem of life-long loneliness, coming in many different forms. The solution is the same for each (personally applying the Gospel), but each has to be open to receiving it. Everybody has seemingly insurmountable problems of some kind or another; we all get tested in this fashion. Some are more private and less socially/politically popular to address than others. Homosexuality is having its moment in the sun.

My question is whether we can find ways to ameliorate the suffering without accepting the symptoms as normative?

[Robert F. Smith]

I would really love to know the numbers of heterosexuals who believe they will not have the opportunity to marry in this life in the Church in comparison to the number of homosexuals. Considering the percentage of homosexuals in a typical population and the percentage of older or disabled or other typically unlikely to marry, unmarried individuals, I would not be surprised if the heterosexuals in the Church who had an expectation (accurate or not) of having to be celibate for the rest of their lives if they chose to live the gospel to the fullest of their potential outnumbered the homosexuals in the Church (even those who leave the Church because they see the expectation of celibacy as an unnecessary burden) who anticipate never finding someone of the opposite gender they could desire physically believe their only choice to remain in the Church is to be celibate for the rest of their lives.

Pretty complicated question, and I'm not sure I follow it. However, the percent of homosexuals in the population in general is about 4%. Through self-selection, the percentage in the Church may be smaller.

[Robert F. Smith]

It appears to be effective in some cases. But when it does work, it often has side effects. Some doubt the sincerity of those who have been "cured" but I think unless we have evidence otherwise, we should take their word that they were able to change.

Yes, pharmaceutically. They've already been able to turn gay rats and fruitflies straight. Humans shouldn't be far behind.

There is already a drug, prenatal dexamosthene, that pregnant mothers can take to reduce the likelihood of their daughter becoming a lesbian. I am hopeful in this regard.

A "brave new world" cannot be far behind . . .

Edited July 19, 2012 by Robert F. Smith

[SamIam]

Sorry Samlam,

I mistakenly formulated the OP so that it appeared that california boy's comments were by me. I have reformulated them here and there as well.

Bob

Quote california boy

It is where the church tells bishops to send gay men in the church. It is the teachings that the church wants those that are gay to receive. Evergreen is not David Matheson's organization, it is the churches under priesthood leadership. As far as I know, Matheson holds no "position" in Evergreen.

california boy, on 18 July 2012 , said:

The church states that it doesn't know how or why a person is gay. In reality no one knows why someone is gay, even gay organizations. What I do know and what every gay person knows is that they are wired to be attracted to the same sex in every sense as someone who is straight is wired to be attracted to someone of the opposite sex. How it happened or why it happened is really irrelevant. Does it help a blind man to see better if he is given an explanation as to why he is blind?

california boy, on 18 July 2012, said:

The hard questions are how do you deal with being all alone your whole life. How do you live without any close relationships with anyone? How do you travel this road all alone when the biggest drive in anyone's life is to share their life with a companion that they can love, trust, and honor. What will this life of loneliness lead to after we die? "it is not good for man to be alone" rings in every gay man’s head daily.

california boy, on 18 July 2012, said:

I wouldn't presume to tell the brethren what to believe. But if asked, I would ask them to prayerfully consider the opportunity to allow gay marriage in the church. Yes the Bible condemns lying with a man and calls it an abomination. It also calls adultery an abomination whose punishment is death. It also calls fornication an abomination punishable by death. Sex outside of marriage gets treated the exact same way across the board.

Boy am I glad you straightened that out for me. I was very confused...I have altered my original post to reflect the appropriate speakers.

Edited July 19, 2012 by SamIam

[wenglund]

So for those who don't believe homosexuality is a sin, but rather the behavior, do you disagree with the policy of the BSA, supported by the LDS Church which bans gays from scouting, even celibate gays.

Correction: It bans OPENLY gay youth and leaders.

Not that this is any of your business, I think they made a wise decision given what is at stake, but even more so given how much they have been and still are under assault by gay advocates.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[SamIam]

Once again, unmitigated rot. My burden is no heavier than that of anyone eles's. To say either way would be ridiculous. My sin is not accepting that I'm attracted to other men. To assume so shows deep rooted ignorance and that the person claiming and assuming so may have bigger issues than those that are evidenced by perceptions such as this.

Sometimes. I think you are chastising me for being in agreement and then I can't tell if it is conceivable to be in agreement with you. What you say does not give me the impression you think it is a heavier burden, it is the vehemence you manifests that makes me wonder if you have not worked up a great deal of angst over this topic. This vehemence being so much more than the average person that is working their way along a path of overcoming sin and understands the nature of the journey makes me wonder of the unspoken dialogue running through your mind. Some people really frown on mind reading but the concept of you will know them by their fruits in my mind is a process of putting 2 and 2 together and salvaging from the process some aspect of their true perspective. In other words the level of your anxiety is clearly based upon conditions not directly related to the contents of my one or two posts and appears to be an out pouring of stored up prior emotions. So, maybe when I mess up in my efforts to understand your points, describe the element of my posts that you find objectionable and let your state of anxiety be metered to the level of a comfortable exchange of ideas which may not always be in agreement.

That said, I do not understand what you meant by this statement "My sin is not accepting that I'm attracted to other men." I don't recollect that I implied that at the level of this discussion that I considered attraction to other men as a cause for an inability to serve in callings; only acting upon these attractions would negate the opportunity. I'm simply restating but if I have missed the boat again help me out and I will try again.

Edited July 19, 2012 by SamIam

[Damien the Leper]

Sometimes. I think you are chastising me for being in agreement and then I can't tell if it is conceivable to be in agreement with you. What you say does not give me the impression you think it is a heavier burden, it is the vehemence you manifests that makes me wonder if you have not worked up a great deal of angst over this topic. This vehemence being so much more than the average person that is working their way along a path of overcoming sin and understands the nature of the journey makes me wonder of the unspoken dialogue running through your mind. Some people really frown on mind reading but the concept of you will know them by their fruits in my mind is a process of putting 2 and 2 together and salvaging from the process some aspect of their true perspective. In other words the level of your anxiety is clearly based upon conditions not directly related to the contents of my one or two posts and appears to be an out pouring of stored up prior emotions. So, maybe when I mess up in my efforts to understand your points, describe the element of my posts that you find objectionable and let your state of anxiety be metered to the level of a comfortable exchange of ideas which may not always be in agreement.

That said, I do not understand what you meant by this statement "My sin is not accepting that I'm attracted to other men." I don't recollect that I implied that at the level of this discussion that I considered attraction to other men as a cause for an inability to serve in callings; only acting upon these attractions would negate the opportunity. I'm simply restating but if I have missed the boat again help me out and I will try again.

First, in actuality I think I misinterpreted your posts. My apologies.

Next, you are the second person today, my mother being the first, to recognize my 'vehemence' but she went a step further to claim that her son (me) had turned into a "self-loathing bigot" (her words exactly).

Out of curiosity, what is it about my 'vehemence' that seems to be intriguing or possibly unsettling?

[Palerider]

There are several things I am looking forward to being rid of myself. This hope is one reason I find them 'survivable' at the moment.

Not trying to change the subject at all here but this seems like a perfect example of the struggles with the flesh that sometimes we win and sometimes we lose but we have faith that God's Grace will take care of the rest.

Perhaps not all but most of the church's paradigm is that if you're really doing "all you can do" you'll overcome sin by the spirit in this world and grow towards perfection.

Reality has a way of disillusioning us.

[Calm]

Perhaps not all but most of the church's paradigm is that if you're really doing "all you can do" you'll overcome sin by the spirit in this world and grow towards perfection.

Perhaps your interpretation of most of the church's paradigm, not mine. I hear "endure to the end" all the time and I've never thought that "end" was sometime in mortality or that there were partial "ends" either. Edited July 19, 2012 by calmoriah

[Palerider]

Perhaps your interpretation of most of the church's paradigm, not mine. I hear "endure to the end" all the time and I've never thought that "end" was sometime in mortality or that there were partial "ends" either.

I don't think I'm alone in viewing the church's paradigm this way. Samlam has nearly the same concept here:

"The sin for all of us not directly related to whatever our condition is but is instead the fact that we will not exercise adequate obedience to be gifted the faith to overcome our carnal state."

I've heard this concept of conquering all tendencies in the flesh plenty of times and it probably infomed Bro. Packer's addresses regarding homosexuality.

It is born out in the B of M when the brother of Jared had reached such a point of righteousness that he could no longer be held beyond the veil. Something that all are implicitly encouraged to strive for.

[CASteinman]

My question is whether we can find ways to ameliorate the suffering without accepting the symptoms as normative?

perfectly said.