Apoligetic Question On Bom Evidence

[mfbukowski]

This is a 12th century Naples Relief

any thoughts.... ha ha... I figured out how to include a picture.

Definitely interesting.

Hebrews 10:20. I don't want to quote it in this context- look it up.

[Calm]

http://www.fairlds.o...n-temple-ritual

It is a common topic for questions.

[CASteinman]

The inverted pentagram only became a satanic symbol when Eliphas Levy declared it so.

It is used for our Nations Highest Meritorious Award -- the Congressional Medal of Honor.

[Scott Lloyd]

The inverted pentagram only became a satanic symbol when Eliphas Levy declared it so.

The symbol is NOT the thing symbolized. -- S. I. Hayakawa

[mfbukowski]

This is a 12th century Naples Relief

any thoughts.... ha ha... I figured out how to include a picture.

Do you have more information on where this came from? Title? Artist? Museum?

[DBMormon]

Do you have more information on where this came from? Title? Artist? Museum?

I do not. I recieved this from a scholar at SHIELDS.

[Lachoneus]

I am not sure of specifics yet. I know the daughter made a big deal of of the symbols we use with the temple are satanic (ex: inverted 5 pointed star) her mom seemed to be very distraught over this particular point. But I need to be prepared to handle Masonry as a whole as well. I read Fair's article on the upside down 5 pointed star but all it pointed out was it's modern use in other places including religious churches.

Are there ancient examples of this upside down star being used? are there other symbols critic say we use and they say are Satanic? If so do we have a response supported by evidence?

Some time back I did a little research on this very topic. Here is part of what I found.

The adoption of the inverted pentagram as a satanic emblem actually dates only to the latter half of the nineteenth century. In 1855, Eliphas Levi (pseudonym of Alphonse Louis Constant) made the first connection between the inverted pentagram, Satan and the goat in his work 2 Dogma et Rituel de la Haute Magie 35 (1855). The first pictorial connection between Satan and the inverted pentagram appears in his La Clef des Grands Mysteres 312 (1861). There are no known satanic connotations of the pentagram that predate Levi (1810-1875).

The most prominent use of the inverted pentagram in the church occurs on the Nauvoo Temple. Because the connection of the pentagram with the goat and Satan did not originate until 1855, a full decade after Joseph Smith’s death in 1844, at the time the Nauvoo Temple was built no connection existed between Satan and the pentagram. Therefore, there can be no satanic meaning to the glyphs depicted on the temple.

Instead, Wandle Mace, foreman for the framework of the Nauvoo Temple, explained that the design of the temple was meant to be “a representation of the Church, the Bride, the Lamb’s wife” (Wandle Mace, Autobiography 207 (BYU Special Collections)). In this regard Mace specifically references John’s statement in Revelation 12:1 concerning the “woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.” Notice that, by following this representation, the stars should be at the top of the temple (“crown of twelve stars”), the sun in the middle (“clothed with the sun”) and the moon at the bottom (“moon under her feet”), just as is portrayed on the Nauvoo Temple. This explains why these three symbols appear to some LDS to be in the “wrong” order.

This symbol, the inverted pentagram, is actually a five-pointed star called the “morning star.” It is often shown in Christian art with two points up and an elongated lower point and was used for centuries prior to 1855 as a representation of Christ. One of the earliest such depictions appears on the reverse of the seal of Constantine I (ca. 272-337 AD). Before the cross, the pentagram was a preferred emblem to adorn the jewelry of early Christians (followed by an 'x' or a phoenix). The pentagram was also associated with the five wounds of Christ. (H. Child, Christian Symbols, Ancient and Modern: A Handbook for Students (1972)). The inverted pentagram is also found in the architecture of many cathedrals. For example, a prominent and beautiful example appears in the center of the window in the north transept of the cathedral at Amiens, France (built 1220-1410). The inverted pentagram also appears on the steeple of the Marktkirche in Hanover, Germany (built in the 1300s). The inverted pentagram is particularly associated in Christian art with depictions of the transfiguration because of Peter’s reference in 2 Peter 1:19 to “the day star” (KJV; NIV and NASB read “morning star”). For one example see Andrei Rublev’s 1405 painting Transfiguration. There are numerous other examples, but these few should be sufficient to illustrate that the inverted pentagram was used for centuries prior to 1855 as a Christian symbol.

[wenglund]

With all symbols, it is important to realize that it is WE who give them meaning. Letters are symbols, with letters we can spell words reflecting the most horrible things humans can imagine, or with the same letters, the most sublime revelations God has given us.

A circle can be an image of the sun, it can have sexual connotations, it can be a wheel, the world, a wedding ring etc etc. It is only a shape- the meaning we give it is what counts.

Regarding masonry, we really need to examine the purpose of the endowment. It is a teaching device to bring us closer to Christ. If we regard the words spoken as "magic incantations" we are thinking more about Harry Potter getting his "spells" right than we are thinking about God.

The endowment has changed- the last major changes were in 1990. This is no secret- many of us old guys were endowed well before then and remember both ceremonies well. One cannot go through that without wondering why things can be removed from the endowment without changing their saving power- until one realizes that their true purpose is not magic incantation, but a symbolic journey as a teaching device to bring us to God.

Obviously that must be the way the First Presidency sees it as well- or they would never have allowed changes. Think about that. Were we supposed to NOT notice that half the endowment suddenly disappeared?

So the origins of what Joseph wrote of the endowment are irrelevant to its ultimate purpose. He used the symbolic vocabulary he had to perform the purpose the Lord wanted. He used the English language, and symbolic forms he found around him to put together a symbolic initiation into the "mysteries" which parallel similar ceremonies given throughout the ages.

These ceremonies are not identical- nor need they to be because they are not "incantations". Their purpose is to bring us God in the same way the ancient mysteries did

Most of those close to Joseph were themselves Masons- do you think they were troubled by the parallels? Obviously not. Why not? Because they understood the differences and similarities, but most importantly they knew, I think, the true PURPOSE of the endowment.

Bottom line: we have nothing to fear from Masonic parallels- they are irrelevant to the FUNCTION of the endowment and its significance in our lives. They are, like the sun, moon, and stars, only symbols. They could have been totally different or not. What is important is the MESSAGE, not the "words".

This bears repeating. As with most all things that tend to disaffect people's faith in the restored gospel, it is a result of fussing over irrelevant details and losing sight of what the temple ceremony is meant to do for us, Loss of faith is often a loss of centering on Christ.

However, since this salient "truth" doesn't always resonate with some people, what I often like to do with people who get hung up on the Masonry comparisons, is to point them to the Coronation Ceremony of Queen Elizabeth, particularly the anointing and investiture portions, and have people draw similarities in their mind with certain aspects of the temple ceremony (the words "Queens" and "Kings" should provide sufficient hint), and point out that the washing and anointing aspect of modern coronations predate Masonry and may be traced back as far as Abraham.

For addition information, please see these threads:

(start at post #38)

There is also this on hand grasps as early as the 11th century:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030817121500/http://www.restorationhistory.com/index.html

Here is more on hand clasps and baptism for the dead:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030817121500/http://www.restorationhistory.com/index.html

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[cinepro]

Her concerns revolve around Masonry and Temples.

I think the most important question is why any LDS would find a "connection" between masonry and the Temple to be negative. In other words, what is it that we're learning in Church or in LDS Culture about Temples that causes this?

I suspect a lot of it has to do with a reluctance or fear of talking about what actually happens inside the Temple. We pump our youth full of sugary, vague euphemisms about "The Temple" for their entire lives, and then we give them no outlet to process their feelings about an experience that ends up being entirely foreign (and for some, weird and disturbing).

So, LDS who haven't been through the Temple get concerned over a Masonic connection because that doesn't jibe with what they have been circumspectly taught their entire lives, and LDS who have been through the Temple get disturbed by the connection because it actually brings them relief in understanding something that was very unusual and disconcerting, only they don't like the nature of that "understanding."

So whether or not the similarities stem from ancient Temple practices passed down through trade guilds, or Joseph borrowed from the local men's club because he needed a way to teach certain people certain things while making sure they could really, really keep a secret, we need to get to the root of the problem.

Additional Note: We also need to be careful of the apologetic knee-jerk reaction to try and make everything "symbolic". While there are obviously many "symbolic" things in the Temple, Prophets such as Brigham Young have been very clear that things such as the "key words", "signs" and "tokens" aren't symbolic, and that they will be literally needed at a future date.

“Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the house of the Lord, which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell” (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1941], p. 416).

As long as this has been taught by a Prophet and is being taught in Church published curriculum, I'm not sure we can say such things are "symbolic", and we need to find another way to explain why these "key words", "signs" and "tokens" that are of such interest to the angels were being shared in frontier Masonic lodges.

(And i recognize that my use of the BY quote from the Young Women's manual contradicts my first point about the vague nature of the teaching of the youth. Based on the Temple teaching I've seen, such specificity is the exception rather than the rule, and often overlooked entirely).

Edited July 12, 2012 by cinepro

[CASteinman]

Now the question - I have a member who from the last experience I related in a previous post has a daughter who has been turned onto anti-mormon material. The member now has also become concerned from the information her daughter shared. Her concerns revolve around Masonry and Temples. I am aware of both replies

1.) Masonry does share connections with ancient ritual.

2.)Joseph saw in the methodology (signs and symbols) a useful was to disseminate information even though the methods were not spiritual in and of themselves.

Now I am curious what do see as the apoligetic works or personal explanations that best assist someone who is concerned over the connection.

While I personally still believe that Masonry is made up of ritualistic expressions that goes back much further then Masonry's begginnings. But I want to be prepared to offer her the best available answers and not just my personal thoughts.

I have never studied this in great detail, but my understanding is that there is a lengthy historical document from around 1300 AD which says that the core elements of Masonry were imported to England about 950AD. I do not recall where they were imported from but I believe it was Jerusalem. Somehow (and I think this is where some substantial doubt and confusion come into play) these imported moral precepts and rituals were incorporated into some offshoot of a tradesman's organization and became what we call "Masonry" today.

Some people reject this idea, but from what I can tell, they stand on weak grounds.

However, more ancient history than about 950AD is also speculative. Supposedly the traditions go back to the original King Solomon and King Hiram of Tyre somewhere around 850BC -- about 1800 years earlier -- and even those traditions are supposedly some unknown older age.

I would have to look it up to see if Joseph Smith ever said that this history was valid. HOWEVER, what he did observe was that the Masonic Ritual was somehow a corrupted or apostate form of worship which he inquired about and was inspired to revise and correct.

This has been further revised and adapted to our current Temple Ceremony.

Interestingly enough, the components of our current Temple Ceremony (in many respects) have been found in ancient histories, manuscripts and archaeological digs -- and some of the things we consider to be sacred (or things that we may discuss but which are done in the Temple) are also mentioned as sacred in these ancient texts as well. For example, there is a reference to Peter talking cryptically about Baptism for the Dead but refusing to discuss it in detail as it was not permitted.

Edited July 12, 2012 by CASteinman

[CASteinman]

We have had threads on Book Of Mormon Evidence so I don't want to repeat that but I could ask this.

What Book of Mormon Evidences do you see as indisputeable or super strong in critic being unable to really give a good explanation for?

Outside of Supernatural evidence, I feel that the hardest evidence to get around is the evidence of various witnesses of the Restoration: including including Emma Smith, Joseph Smith and so on, but especially the Testimony of the 8 witnesses and the Testimony of the 3 Witnesses.

I also think that the even though it is hard to pinpoint on a map -- the perfectly consistent internal Geography is remarkable.

The existence of Nahom, in the right place is also pretty hard to get around.

[Robert F. Smith]

By the way, had a brain lapse.... sorry but I was thinking about a Book of Mormon scripture when writing the title of this post and meant

Apoligetic Question On Masonry Evidence

Faithful Mormons are at a disadvantage in discussing any sort of comparison of LDS temple rites and masonic rites, and simply discussing the masonic rites alone is only meaningful to Mormons who have a solid understanding of the LDS rites.

Thus, if I point out the three "speculative" masonic degrees and their origin as the three degrees of medieval "operative" guilds of builders, which are still used in the building trades today (apprentice, journeyman, master), and the same relationship to college and university degrees (baccalaureate, master, and doctorate), which were medieval clerical degrees, I am going to draw a blank with the uninitiated.

The same applies to Hugh Nibley's very explicit book on the subject, The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri: An Egyptian Endowment, 1st ed. (SLC: Deseret Book, 1975); 2nd ed., Collected Works of Hugh Nibley XVI (2006). The only people who can truly appreciate it are those who have had the LDS temple experience.

Another set of articles on the ancient order has the same limitations:

Nibley, Hugh W., “The Early Christian Prayer Circle,” BYU Studies 19/1 (Fall 1978), 41-78, available online at https://byustudies.b...aspx?title=5356 = Nibley, Works, IV:45-99.

Quinn, D. Michael, “Latter-day Saint Prayer Circles,” BYU Studies 19/1 (Fall 1978), 79-105, available online at https://byustudies.b...aspx?title=5357.

I can cite ancient temple rites from Scripture (both Bible and Book of Mormon), but I am not permitted to draw out or list the direct parallels. Only someone already conversant with the subject can truly see the powerful parallels with modern LDS esoteric rites. Thus, when David Bokovoy lectures on the subject, his lectures are extremely popular with Mormon temple-goers, but he never mentions modern LDS rites -- only the ancient ones.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Robert F. Smith

[CASteinman]

I don't consider the 16th century ancient, and that is when freemasonry began.

Depends upon what you consider to be FreeMasonry -- for the purposes of this discussion.

[HiJolly]

And then there's those dern Kabbalists...

[rameumptom]

Joseph learned from translating ancient scripture that there is symbolism in almost all things. All one has to do is pull it out and use it to one's own sacred use.

The Bible has accounts of prophets using pagan methods to create ordinances, as well as perform their works and miracles: Abraham sacrificing Isaac, Mosaic animal sacrifice, Jesus healing the man's eyes with clay, Paul's handkerchief used to heal others, etc.

For Joseph to use Masonry to create a new endowment (which is very different in most ways from the Masonic rite), was just a simple means of using a pattern of symbolism that was already available for something sacred. That the key points of the endowment are found in the Book of Mormon shows that Joseph already had the important parts, and only needed a vehicle to provide the endowment. Interestingly, with the 1991 changes, we see the church getting rid of some of the Masonic parts, but retaining the key parts that are tied to the Book of Mormon.

[Zakuska]

I am not sure of specifics yet. I know the daughter made a big deal of of the symbols we use with the temple are satanic (ex: inverted 5 pointed star) her mom seemed to be very distraught over this particular point. But I need to be prepared to handle Masonry as a whole as well. I read Fair's article on the upside down 5 pointed star but all it pointed out was it's modern use in other places including religious churches.

Are there ancient examples of this upside down star being used? are there other symbols critic say we use and they say are Satanic? If so do we have a response supported by evidence?

Inverted five pointed Petagrams Satanic? Since when?

You need to remind her that the Inverted Pentagram wasn't a Satanic symbol until the late 19th Century, and that prior to that. It was a perfectly good Christan Symbol representing the five wounds of Christ.

This post has examples of Christian use of the Pentagram

http://www.mormondia...entry1209052207

My favorite though is this one:

This is the clock tower of the Market Church in Hamburg Germany (ie the Church that Martin Luther pastored.)

Edited July 16, 2012 by Zakuska