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The "Tau" Cross - A Pagan Symbol?

Zakuska

By Zakuska
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Zakuska Grand Master

Zakuska

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Some intresting quotes:

Dr. Bullinger, The Companion Bible, appx. 162 states, "crosses were used as symbols of the Babylonian Sun-god...It should be stated that Constantine was a Sun-god worshipper...The evidence is thus complete, that the Lord was put to death upon and upright stake, and not on two pieces of timber placed at any angle." [2]

Rev. Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons, pp. 197-205, frankly calls the cross "this Pagan symbol...the Tau, the sign of the cross, the indisputable sign of Tammuz, the false Messiah...the mystic Tau of the Chaldeans (Babylonians) and Egyptians--the true original form of the letter T--the initial of the name of Tammus...the Babylonian cross was the recognized emblem of Tammuz." [3]

In the Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edition, vol. 14, p. 273, we read, "In the Egyptian churches the cross was a pagan symbol of life borrowed by the Christians and interpreted in the pagan manner." Jacob Grimm, in his Deutsche Mythologie, says that the Teutonic (Germanic) tribes had their idol Thor, symbolised by a hammer, while the Roman Christians had their crux (cross). It was thus somewhat easier for the Teutons to accept the Roman cross. [4]

http://thewordsofete....com/cross.html

This is what the God of the Bible told Ezekiel about the veneration of Tammuz, who's sign was the Tau Cross.

In cult practice, the dead Tammuz was widely mourned in the Ancient Near East. Locations associated in antiquity with the site of his death include both Harran and Byblos, among others. A Sumerian tablet from Nippur (Ni 4486) reads:

She can make the lament for you, my Dumuzid, the lament for you, the lament, the lamentation, reach the desert — she can make it reach the house Arali; she can make it reach Bad-tibira; she can make it reach Dul-šuba; she can make it reach the shepherding country, the sheepfold of Dumuzid "O Dumuzid of the fair-spoken mouth, of the ever kind eyes," she sobs tearfully, "O you of the fair-spoken mouth, of the ever kind eyes," she sobs tearfully. "Lad, husband, lord, sweet as the date, [...] O Dumuzid!" she sobs, she sobs tearfully.[3]

These mourning ceremonies were observed even at the very door of the Temple in Jerusalem in a vision the Israelite prophet Ezekiel was given, which serves as a Biblical prophecy which expresses Yahweh's message at His people's apostate worship of idols:

"Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the Lord's house which was toward the north; and,
behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz
. Then said he unto to me, 'Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again,
and thou shalt see greater abominations than these
." —Ezekiel 8:14-15

Ezekiel's testimony is the only direct mention of Tammuz in the Hebrew Bible.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Tammuz_(deity)

The Sign of the Cross

The sign of the cross as used in Rome, did not originate with Christianity as many assume, but came right out of mystery Babylon. It represented the mystic Tau, the letter “T” and the initial for the name Tammuz. It was seen as follows:

rev-8.gif

These symbols were used on the official garments of the priests of Babylonia and worn around their necks on chains, just as in Rome today.

Bacchus, another name for Tammuz, was represented with a headband covered with crosses.

http://bible.org/ser...ction-rev-17-18

bacchus.jpg

The Two Babylons:

http://www.piney.com/His56.html

Edited by Zakuska
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LeSellers Veteran

LeSellers

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God's dying to save their people had been "around" for millennia....

Of course it had. Adam knew about it, Enoch knew about it,, Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph (and his brothers), Ephraim, Moses, Aaron and the children of Israel all knew about it. Jared and his brother knew about it, Isaiah, Malachi, Lehi and Nephi did, too.

That there were many apostasies between Adam and Christ is documented in the Bible and the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. These apostasies resulted in many distortions of the truth about the Atonement, and there were false Christs before His first Advent, judt as there have been since then.

Lehi

1
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3DOP Grand Master

3DOP

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You are interested in Alexander Hislop now Zakuska? I have read The Two Babylons at least twice. It was a help to me when I was looking for a reason to harp about the Catholic Church as the Whore of Babylon, which I believe is the sub-title of the book. I no longer own it.

Maybe you can explain one of your quotes for me:

Rev. Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons, pp. 197-205, frankly calls the cross "this Pagan symbol...the Tau, the sign of the cross, the indisputable sign of Tammuz, the false Messiah...the mystic Tau of the Chaldeans (Babylonians) and Egyptians--the true original form of the letter T--the initial of the name of Tammus...the Babylonian cross was the recognized emblem of Tammuz." [3]

In particular, in what way do you think Hislop is being "frank" in his criticism of the sign of the cross? His entire object as a rabid anti-Catholic is to make non-Catholics shudder when they see my family and I make the sign of the cross before saying grace in a public restaurant. He wants you to think that we are invoking the devil if you should see us making the sign of the cross before or after praying our Rosaries, or upon arising in the morning or the other hopefully dozens of times in the day when we want to unite ourselves with Jesus Christ our Crucified Savior in remembrance of what He did for us. To say that Hislop is being "frank" about his criticism of that is like saying that Hitler was being "frank" in saying something unfavorable about Jews. Hislop is no friend of the Cross or of Catholics and to use a quote from him as though he is making a difficult admission is an egregious misrepresentation of his beliefs and motives.

Edited by 3DOP
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Zakuska Grand Master

Zakuska

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You are interested in Alexander Hislop now Zakuska? I have read The Two Babylons at least twice. It was a help to me when I was looking for a reason to harp about the Catholic Church as the Whore of Babylon, which I believe is the sub-title of the book. I no longer own it.

Maybe you can explain one of your quotes for me:

In particular, in what way do you think Hislop is being "frank" in his criticism of the sign of the cross? His entire object as a rabid anti-Catholic is to make non-Catholics shudder when they see my family and I make the sign of the cross before saying grace in a public restaurant. He wants you to think that we are invoking the devil if you should see us making the sign of the cross before or after praying our Rosaries, or upon arising in the morning or the other hopefully dozens of times in the day when we want to unite ourselves with Jesus Christ our Crucified Savior in remembrance of what He did for us. To say that Hislop is being "frank" about his criticism of that is like saying that Hitler was being "frank" in saying something unfavorable about Jews. Hislop is no friend of the Cross or of Catholics and to use a quote from him as though he is making a difficult admission is an egregious misrepresentation of his beliefs and motives.

Intrestingly 3DOP, the "frankly" came from the original source I linked who is actually defending the cross of the Christians against Hislop.

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Mike Reed Experienced

Mike Reed

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Are you surprised that anti-Catholics like Alexander Hislop (1807-1865), or a Zwinglian descendant like EW Bullinger (1837-1913), would speak so negatively of the cross symbol? Do you really think anti-Catholic J. Hampton Keathley III is a worthy source to quote? Keathley also writes, "What brought about the transference of mystery Babylon over into Christianity and the rise of what we know as Romanism or Roman Catholicism?"

Was the cross used by pagans before Christianity? Sure. The cross was a widely used symbol, and is found in almost every known culture around the world. So what? Does the origin of something determine its current significance? Should wedding rings be cast off, Christmas holidays rejected? What about circumcision among the Jews? Jesus was circumcised, and yet Egyptians practiced circumcision long before Egyptians ever did. Should we therefore reject Jesus?

How about the New Testament and Book of Mormon, which both utilize the literary symbol of the cross throughout? How about Spencer W. Kimball, who, feeling inadequate, poured his heart out to God, asking for a confirmation that he was indeed divinely called to the Quorum of the Twelve, and believed his prayer was answered after seeing a cross on a hillside? What about Church authorities petitioning the SLC Council in 1916, to erect a cross monument on Ensign Peak, to honor the Mormon pioneers and the gospel that they brought to the land? How about the many Latter-day Saints who perceived the pre-Columbian cross in archeological remains as evidence confirming the authenticity of the BoM?

Edited by Mike Reed
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3DOP Grand Master

3DOP

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Intrestingly 3DOP, the "frankly" came from the original source I linked who is actually defending the cross of the Christians against Hislop.

I don't find that because you are a secondary source, you are relieved of accountability to explain something that you share as interesting. You continued to go to a different website that features Hislop's discredited and hateful nonsense, again I suppose, because it is "intresting". Don't you think you at least have an obligation to share the disclaimers that were at the bottom of the web page from which you quoted that summarizes the sloppy "work" of Hislop?

There are a number of interesting things I could point to about the so-called history of these pagan origins. The sad truth is that most “pagan origin” claims come from the work of an Alexander Hislop. For those who have taken the time to check out Hislop, they will discover that his research on the pagan origins is often contradictory. Read what “The Saturday Review” dated September 17, 1859, p. 340. had to say about Hislop’s work:

In the first place, his whole superstructure is raised upon nothing. Our earliest authority for the history of Semiramis wrote about the commencement of the Christian era, and the historian from whom he drew his information lived from fifteen hundred to two thousand years after the date which Mr. Hislop assigns to the great Assyrian Queen. The most lying legend which the Vatican has ever endorsed stands on better authority than the history which is now made the ground of a charge against it.

Secondly, the whole argument proceeds upon the assumption that all heathenism has a common origin. Accidental resemblances in mythological details are taken as evidence of this, and nothing is allowed for the natural working of the human mind.

Thirdly, Mr. Hislop’s method of reasoning would make anything of anything. By the aid of obscure passages in third-rate historians, groundless assumptions of identity, and etymological torturing of roots, all that we know, and all that we believe, may be converted…into something totally different.

Fourthly, Mr. Hislop’s argument proves too much. He finds not only the corruptions of Popery, but the fundamental articles of the Christian Faith, in his hypothetical Babylonian system…

We take leave of Mr. Hislop and his work with the remark that we never before quite knew the folly of which ignorant or half-learned bigotry is capable.

---from Zakuska's first source

Or do you find it more interesting to hope like Hislop, that a revered symbol of Christianity comes from devil worship? In the interest of being interesting, we can just leave out mitigating evidence that may exonerate early Christianity and contemporary Catholics of devil-worship? I don't find unbalanced misinformation to be in the least interesting, and when it attacks something that is good and true, I find it to be repulsive.

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Zakuska Grand Master

Zakuska

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I don't find that because you are a secondary source, you are relieved of accountability to explain something that you share as interesting. You continued to go to a different website that features Hislop's discredited and hateful nonsense, again I suppose, because it is "intresting". Don't you think you at least have an obligation to share the disclaimers that were at the bottom of the web page from which you quoted that summarizes the sloppy "work" of Hislop?

---from Zakuska's first source

Or do you find it more interesting to hope like Hislop, that a revered symbol of Christianity comes from devil worship? In the interest of being interesting, we can just leave out mitigating evidence that may exonerate early Christianity and contemporary Catholics of devil-worship? I don't find unbalanced misinformation to be in the least interesting, and when it attacks something that is good and true, I find it to be repulsive.

You should notice 3DOP and Mike Reed. I started my thread with a '?' As a means of discussing, not making accusations. :rolleyes:

Edited by Zakuska
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Zakuska Grand Master

Zakuska

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Ha! Me too. Not sure, though, whether the pentagram makes me a Mormon, Mason, Magician, Satanist, or Pagan. ;) Maybe Hilsop knows.

You should add Christian to that list.

The Pentagram in Christianity:

Christian Churches

  • Kaarma, Estonia, Church of Sts. Peter and Paul - 1261 AD off-site
  • Amiens, France, cathedral, north transept window off-site
  • Market Church, Hanover, Germany off-site
  • Church pew, Europe, 12th century off-site
  • Chartres, France, niche surrounding Madonna and Child statue off-site
  • St. Mary's church, Adderbury, Oxfordshire off-site
  • St. Bartholomew church, Ucero, Spain off-site
  • Lisbon, Portugal cathedral cloister off-site
  • St. Paul's cathedral, Melbourne, Australia off-site
  • Orthodox Church, Olyphant, Pennsylvania - 2009 AD off-site
  • Schenkenschanz, Germany - 1634 AD

Christian Artwork

Jewish Synagogue

Medal of Honor

Boy Scouts of America

Coat of Arms

Flags

Miscellaneous

Edited by Zakuska
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Mike Reed Experienced

Mike Reed

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You should add Christian to that list.

Whad to you mean? I said Mormon... aren't Mormons Christian? ;)

That is quite the list. Several years ago the history of the Pentagram was one of my favorite topics to study.

Maybe we could add the Republican party too:

republicanparty03.gif

Oh wait... that's right. I already mentioned Satanists.

:-p

Just kidding, of course.

Edit: Just noticed that you already have the Republican party logo on your list.

Edited by Mike Reed
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3DOP Grand Master

3DOP

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Posted (edited)

You should notice 3DOP and Mike Reed. I started my thread with a '?' As a means of discussing, not making accusations. :rolleyes:

What's to discuss? Your featured and discredited source loathed the Catholic Church and made every effort to make us appear to be devil worshippers. What I find to be despicable, you find to be "interesting" because your faith is compatible with me being a devil worshipper. Unopposed, the one-sided view you present as "interesting", could be a source of false comfort to those who are already inclined to dismiss Catholic claims.

You can print a whole row of smily faces if you want to show how you only want to discuss while I am accusing. It might be effective with some. You suggest that I am being accusatory? You prove my point. A question mark does not necessarily excuse one of accusing. I admit that I accuse you of being unaccountably imbalanced in your own presentation.

What you call accusations, consisted of three questions which you do not seem inclined to answer:

1) Don't you think you at least have an obligation to share the disclaimers that were at the bottom of the web page from which you quoted that summarizes the sloppy "work" of Hislop?

2) Or do you find it more interesting to hope like Hislop, that a revered symbol of Christianity comes from devil worship?

3) In the interest of being interesting, we can just leave out mitigating evidence that may exonerate early Christianity and contemporary Catholics of devil-worship?

Edited by 3DOP
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Zakuska Grand Master

Zakuska

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What you call accusations, consisted of three questions which you do not seem inclined to answer:

1) Don't you think you at least have an obligation to share the disclaimers that were at the bottom of the web page from which you quoted that summarizes the sloppy "work" of Hislop?

2) Or do you find it more interesting to hope like Hislop, that a revered symbol of Christianity comes from devil worship?

3) In the interest of being interesting, we can just leave out mitigating evidence that may exonerate early Christianity and contemporary Catholics of devil-worship?

Hyslop is equivalent to modern Evangelicals pointing to the inverted stars on LDS temples while missing the billboard sized Pentagram on Martin Luthers clock tower.

Perhaps HE, with all his preaching against the Law of Moses, was the AntiChrist. The lawless one.

:shok:

I say turn about is fair play.

;)

Edited by Zakuska
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mfbukowski Grand Master

mfbukowski

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Some intresting quotes:

Symbols are what you make of them. Many think Masonic symbols are diabolical too. The cross itself was used as a fertility symbol long before it was a symbol of Christ.

You can use letters, which are symbols, to spell words which are profane or sacred. Take it from a guy whose initials are mf.

Edited by mfbukowski
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Zakuska Grand Master

Zakuska

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Symbols are what you make of them. Many think Masonic symbols are diabolical too. The cross itself was used as a fertility symbol long before it was a symbol of Christ.

From what Ive read about that it was used for much more than a mere-symbol in those instances.

Edited by Zakuska
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Mike Reed Experienced

Mike Reed

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Speaking of Lutheran:

Morning Star Lutheran Church logo (see banner at the top of the page)

http://mslc.us/

And check out the inverted stars on these Lutheran hymnboards:

http://www.klru.org/paintedchurches/images/serbin_pic9.jpg

And of course, the Lutheran Seal:

http://www.lcos.org/photos/displayimage.php?album=4&pos=1 (seems to have a pentagram suggested in it, doesn't it?)

Edited by Mike Reed
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Zakuska Grand Master

Zakuska

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Morning Star Lutheran Church logo (see banner at the top of the page)

http://mslc.us/

I did a search a few years ago and the Lutheruns seem to be pretty fond of the inverted pentagram.

Check this German church out.

Notice the prominent Pentagram above the front door starting out at about 30 seconds.

Edited by Zakuska
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3DOP Grand Master

3DOP

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Posted

Zak

Hyslop is equivalent to modern Evangelicals pointing to the inverted stars on LDS temples while missing the billboard sized Pentagram on Martin Luthers clock tower.

Perhaps HE, with all his preaching against the Law of Moses, was the AntiChrist. The lawless one.

:shok:

I say turn about is fair play.

;)

3DOP

Turn about is fair play? I am glad that you are now saying what you know to be true about Hislop. But you are blithely justifying your earlier presentation with the glib adage "turn about is fair play"? Oh no. I won't be able to forget this conversation Zak. I wish I could think you were deliberately pressing my "buttons". I am afraid I believe you.

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mfbukowski Grand Master

mfbukowski

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Posted

Are you surprised that anti-Catholics like Alexander Hislop (1807-1865), or a Zwinglian descendant like EW Bullinger (1837-1913), would speak so negatively of the cross symbol? Do you really think anti-Catholic J. Hampton Keathley III is a worthy source to quote? Keathley also writes, "What brought about the transference of mystery Babylon over into Christianity and the rise of what we know as Romanism or Roman Catholicism?"

Was the cross used by pagans before Christianity? Sure. The cross was a widely used symbol, and is found in almost every known culture around the world. So what? Does the origin of something determine its current significance? Should wedding rings be cast off, Christmas holidays rejected? What about circumcision among the Jews? Jesus was circumcised, and yet Egyptians practiced circumcision long before Egyptians ever did. Should we therefore reject Jesus?

How about the New Testament and Book of Mormon, which both utilize the literary symbol of the cross throughout? How about Spencer W. Kimball, who, feeling inadequate, poured his heart out to God, asking for a confirmation that he was indeed divinely called to the Quorum of the Twelve, and believed his prayer was answered after seeing a cross on a hillside? What about Church authorities petitioning the SLC Council in 1916, to erect a cross monument on Ensign Peak, to honor the Mormon pioneers and the gospel that they brought to the land? How about the many Latter-day Saints who perceived the pre-Columbian cross in archeological remains as evidence confirming the authenticity of the BoM?

Dang.

I hate it when I have to agree with you, you heathen! ;)

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Zakuska Grand Master

Zakuska

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Zak

Hyslop is equivalent to modern Evangelicals pointing to the inverted stars on LDS temples while missing the billboard sized Pentagram on Martin Luthers clock tower.

Perhaps HE, with all his preaching against the Law of Moses, was the AntiChrist. The lawless one.

:shok:

I say turn about is fair play.

;)

3DOP

Turn about is fair play? I am glad that you are now saying what you know to be true about Hislop. But you are blithely justifying your earlier presentation with the glib adage "turn about is fair play"? Oh no. I won't be able to forget this conversation Zak. I wish I could think you were deliberately pressing my "buttons". I am afraid I believe you.

I pulled Mike out of his cave too Rory. ;)

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Mike Reed Experienced

Mike Reed

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About the bell-tower's large "billboard" size pentagram from the Lutheran Marktkirche... representatives published a brochure several years ago, giving an explanation for the apparently 'satanic' symbol. The following is what that brochure says:

"Beim Bau der Kirche im 14. Jahrhundert wurden Zeichen gewählt, die von der göttlichen Lebenskraft erzählen. Gerade dem Pentagramm wurde die damals allgemein bekannte Bedeutung zugesprochen, das Böse abwehren zu können. Gleichzeitig wollten die Hannoveraner dem Teufel ein Schnippchen schlagen. Sie stellten das Fünfeck auf die Spitze. Mit dieser vermeintlich negativen Bedeutung hielten sie ihm einen "Spiegel" vor und verbannten ihn auf diese Weise. Aus diesem Grund baute man in jener Zeit auch fratzenhafte Gestalten als Wasserspeier an viele gotische Kathedralen."

According the brochure, the symbol was used to ward off evil, and "sock it to" the Devil. By inverting the star, they displayed a mirror image to ward off the devil (and presumably other evil spirits too). The pamphlet then compared this use to the gargoyles depicted on Gothic cathedrals.

I don't speak German, however. I base my understanding on a translation provided by Jones McKay several years ago.

It is unclear to me whether the article is asserting that the mirror image is of the devil himself, or of the pentagram. Anyone able to read German to clarify?

As we all know, an optical illusion of inversion can happen at the propper angle (like the mountains reflected on a lake).

1246249668rPX7YiZ.jpg

Inversion symbolism can be suggestive of heavenly images/forms. You may remember that the Kaballa Tree is inverted. Also notable may be that, according Plato's Republic, "reflection" is the second of the three stages of cognigion. Perceiving 1) Shadows, 2) Reflection, 3) The Thing (or Sun) itself. I find inversion symbolism very fascinating... which is the avitar I chose has an inverted head and inverted star.

Edited by Mike Reed
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