Apoligetic Question On Bom Evidence

[DBMormon]

First, I want to say thank you to all those who have communicated with me since I joined, I came here with a lot of hostility and pressing questions that did not go away easily. I persisted to throw out my line and way of thinking. And you each persisted in addressing those issues, sometimes in frustration with me, sometimes sarcasm, sometimes empathy, and also concern.

I was in a place where I could not accept how many of you saw things. I saw you as making excuses and skirting the issues. It seemed insincere at times. Now I remind you that was my perception then.

I have had some inspiring experiences happen recently that have opened me up to first comprehending that vantage point and then empathizing with it and finally finding it to be within me as well.

So first, thank you for your time. I really have learned a lot and have come to comprehend this paradigm much differently. My testimony is better for it.

Now the question - I have a member who from the last experience I related in a previous post has a daughter who has been turned onto anti-mormon material. The member now has also become concerned from the information her daughter shared. Her concerns revolve around Masonry and Temples. I am aware of both replies

1.) Masonry does share connections with ancient ritual.

2.)Joseph saw in the methodology (signs and symbols) a useful was to disseminate information even though the methods were not spiritual in and of themselves.

Now I am curious what do see as the apoligetic works or personal explanations that best assist someone who is concerned over the connection.

While I personally still believe that Masonry is made up of ritualistic expressions that goes back much further then Masonry's begginnings. But I want to be prepared to offer her the best available answers and not just my personal thoughts.

Also to tie in my mistake in the title I could add this as well.

We have had threads on Book Of Mormon Evidence so I don't want to repeat that but I could ask this.

What Book of Mormon Evidences do you see as indisputeable or super strong in critic being unable to really give a good explanation for?

Edited July 12, 2012 by DBMormon

[DBMormon]

By the way, had a brain lapse.... sorry but I was thinking about a Book of Mormon scripture when writing the title of this post and meant

Apoligetic Question On Masonry Evidence

Edited July 12, 2012 by DBMormon

[volgadon]

What most concerns her with this? That is what I would ask, then go from there.

[robuchan]

I think it's a pretty easy answer and fairly acceptable that nothing about the temple ritual in terms of its correlation with Masonry is necessarily ancient or divine or eternal. It's simply a teaching method. That'st he best angle, IMHO.

The tough part to answer is a deeper level which most don't get into and is not discussed much. But that's the possibility that masonic influence has crept into actual Mormon doctrine, scripture and teachings, ie theosis, gods/godesses/priests/priestesses, priesthood, Shem = Melchizedek, and so on. See the material George Miller has produced.

[DBMormon]

In my mind with Book of Mormon evidences that are very strong or indisputable.... bullseyes. I realize the spirit will always be what I ask people to lean on but some folks need to know there are also great physical evidences of the church as well

1.) while many criticize the 11 BOM witnesses.... I find the fact that some left the church and should have exposed the fraud and had perfect opportunity to do so... did not. And in the case of Whitmer who left the church and never ca,e back had his testimony placed on his gravestone.

2.) Apocalypse of Adam - http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/adam.html The text discusses Adam and talks about Adam being taught by three messengers. To me this is such a gigantic coincidence it begs for serious consideration by critics.

3.) Chiasmus ? Do you guys find this a serious evidence. I do and not sure of a valid way to explain Alma ch. 36 away though it seems some do not find this an evidence.

What do you guys think????? What others?????

[DBMormon]

What most concerns her with this? That is what I would ask, then go from there.

I am not sure of specifics yet. I know the daughter made a big deal of of the symbols we use with the temple are satanic (ex: inverted 5 pointed star) her mom seemed to be very distraught over this particular point. But I need to be prepared to handle Masonry as a whole as well. I read Fair's article on the upside down 5 pointed star but all it pointed out was it's modern use in other places including religious churches.

Are there ancient examples of this upside down star being used? are there other symbols critic say we use and they say are Satanic? If so do we have a response supported by evidence?

Edited July 12, 2012 by DBMormon

[Benjamin McGuire]

There are a few things to consider.

First, there is this issue within the church that has a sometimes moving target. The temple and everything in it is generally held to be sacrosanct. Many members consider it to be revealed, to be perhaps the apex of modern revelation. The challenge that is sometimes faced is that the temple ordinances have evolved. Most people who get into this discussion from an orthodox perspective will try to create some kind of demarcation between what is essential, and what is not. Usually, the things that have changed are considered non-essential. But, there is, in our faith with ongoing revelation, the almost certainty that more things will eventually change within the temple ordinances - and hence the idea of a moving target. For many, what might be considered essential today, may not be considered essential tomorrow. The problem of course is that we don't have any kind of foreknowledge of what might change, and what might (or even ought) to be considered right now as non-essential.

Second, along these lines, the problem with the parallels to freemasonry is that the ones that are primarily portrayed (certain language and the grips) are often viewed as part of the essential elements of the temple ceremony. That is, we don't expect or anticipate (generally speaking) that these elements of the temple ceremony will change, and so we assume that they are essential (and by essential we also infer at times that they must be revealed).

This issue - directly or indirectly has to be dealt with.

Over all, very little of the rites of Freemasonry made it into the LDS temple ordinances. What did make it in has clearly been repurposed. The nature and function of the ordinances is for the most part quite different (except as an initiation of sorts). So in those terms, we don't have the ordinances of the temple borrowing wholesale from Freemasonry. My experience is that it actually helps at some point to take a look at the rites of Freemasonry as a whole just to get a perspective on that issue.

I think in the end, my conclusion is that the temple ordinances themselves remain types and symbols - perhaps with celestial equivalents. But, what we have is not some perfect, unchanging, pure ordinance of some sort. It is a shadow of it. And its purpose is to teach us something different that isn't caught up in the way that we perform those ordinances ourselves.

[volgadon]

I am not sure of specifics yet. I know the daughter made a big deal of of the symbols we use with the temple are satanic (ex: inverted 5 pointed star) her mom seemed to be very distraught over this particular point. But I need to be prepared to handle Masonry as a whole as well. I read Fair's article on the upside down 5 pointed star but all it pointed out was it's modern use in other places including religious churches.

Are there ancient examples of this upside down star being used? are there other symbols critic say we use and they say are Satanic? If so do we have a response supported by evidence?

The inverted pentagram only became a satanic symbol when Eliphas Levy declared it so.

[Benjamin McGuire]

Are there ancient examples of this upside down star being used?

The FAIR article does list a few. The real key issue though is that the first known association with this as a satanic symbol doesn't occur until a decade after Joseph's death. That is, this association is itself a modern invention.

Ben M.

[volgadon]

Shem = Melchizedek

Of course this has nothing to do with the publication of the Book of Jasher, right?

[Freedom]

If the Mason practices are ancient, and if our temple practices are ancient, wouldn't it be of greater concern if they were not similar?

[mfbukowski]

With all symbols, it is important to realize that it is WE who give them meaning. Letters are symbols, with letters we can spell words reflecting the most horrible things humans can imagine, or with the same letters, the most sublime revelations God has given us.

A circle can be an image of the sun, it can have sexual connotations, it can be a wheel, the world, a wedding ring etc etc. It is only a shape- the meaning we give it is what counts.

Regarding masonry, we really need to examine the purpose of the endowment. It is a teaching device to bring us closer to Christ. If we regard the words spoken as "magic incantations" we are thinking more about Harry Potter getting his "spells" right than we are thinking about God.

The endowment has changed- the last major changes were in 1990. This is no secret- many of us old guys were endowed well before then and remember both ceremonies well. One cannot go through that without wondering why things can be removed from the endowment without changing their saving power- until one realizes that their true purpose is not magic incantation, but a symbolic journey as a teaching device to bring us to God.

Obviously that must be the way the First Presidency sees it as well- or they would never have allowed changes. Think about that. Were we supposed to NOT notice that half the endowment suddenly disappeared?

So the origins of what Joseph wrote of the endowment are irrelevant to its ultimate purpose. He used the symbolic vocabulary he had to perform the purpose the Lord wanted. He used the English language, and symbolic forms he found around him to put together a symbolic initiation into the "mysteries" which parallel similar ceremonies given throughout the ages.

These ceremonies are not identical- nor need they to be because they are not "incantations". Their purpose is to bring us God in the same way the ancient mysteries did

Most of those close to Joseph were themselves Masons- do you think they were troubled by the parallels? Obviously not. Why not? Because they understood the differences and similarities, but most importantly they knew, I think, the true PURPOSE of the endowment.

Bottom line: we have nothing to fear from Masonic parallels- they are irrelevant to the FUNCTION of the endowment and its significance in our lives. They are, like the sun, moon, and stars, only symbols. They could have been totally different or not. What is important is the MESSAGE, not the "words".

[Tacenda]

If the Mason practices are ancient, and if our temple practices are ancient, wouldn't it be of greater concern if they were not similar?

I don't consider the 16th century ancient, and that is when freemasonry began.

[volgadon]

I don't consider the 16th century ancient, and that is when freemasonry began.

That may be when freemasonry began, but they didn't begin from scratch.

[HiJolly]

I don't consider the 16th century ancient, and that is when freemasonry began.

But the practices of ritual started long, long before then.

HiJolly

[Tacenda]

That may be when freemasonry began, but they didn't begin from scratch.

That may be true, but it didn't start in Solomon's Temple either, according to scholars who are faithful LDS.

[DBMormon]

That may be true, but it didn't start in Solomon's Temple either, according to scholars who are faithful LDS.

No LDS apoligist has claimed that reasoning in twenty years as far as I know. I saw this reasoning as one lay members were using... in error I might add.

Though I would say as others have that special words and handshakes go way back further then 16th century.

Edited July 12, 2012 by DBMormon

[DBMormon]

I have a photo on my computer of a 12th century artifact that applies to this dicussion, How do I attach it?

[mfbukowski]

No LDS apoligist has claimed that reasoning in twenty years as far as I know. I saw this reasoning as one lay members were using... in error I might add.

Though I would say as others have that special words and handshakes go way back further then 16th century.

I think you must distinguish how old the "elements" of Masonry are as compared to the the modern organizations and lodges. I think virtually everyone acknowledges that the "elements" are indeed ancient.

The Coptic Christian baptism and confirmation ceremonies include for example, annointing specific body parts, the head, eyes, back, etc and that practice clearly goes back to early Christian times.

Edited to add:

THE ANOINTMENTS

The priest places his right thumb on top of the opening of the Myron bottle, and turns it downwards to wet his finger with the Myron. He then anoints the baptized as follows :

The first four anointments (eight crosses) are on the senses

Firstly, the top of the head, the nostrils, the mouth, and the right ear

Then, the right eye, the left eye, an finally the left ear

Whilst anointing, the priest says, “In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. The anointment of grace of the Holy Spirit, Amen.”

NOTES:

He anoints The Head to sanctify it. The head contains the brain, where thinking takes place. It is the brain which distinguishes humankind from other creatures. A good mind is of great use and benefit to oneself and to others also. King Solomon praises the mind saying, “When wisdom enters your heart and knowledge is pleasant to your soul, discretion will preserve you, understanding will keep you, to deliver from the way evil” (Proverbs 2: 10-12).

Also, the Lord Jesus praised the young man who answered wisely and said to him: “You are not far from the Kingdom of God” (Mark 12:34). And St. Paul our teacher prays for us saying, “And the peace of God which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus” (Philippians 4:7).

The Nostrils contain the sense of smell, and it is an important sense, for if a person is not careful and alert, it is possible for impure thoughts to enter ones heart through this sense. Hence, the priest anoints it to protect it against all sin and lust.

The Mouth with the tongue is the most dangerous organ in a person...

“If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless” (James 1:26).

“If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body" (James 3:2).

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/sacraments/2_confirmation.html

And it continues, of course

Edited July 12, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

First, I want to say thank you to all those who have communicated with me since I joined, I came here with a lot of hostility and pressing questions that did not go away easily. I persisted to throw out my line and way of thinking. And you each persisted in addressing those issues, sometimes in frustration with me, sometimes sarcasm, sometimes empathy, and also concern.

I was in a place where I could not accept how many of you saw things. I saw you as making excuses and skirting the issues. It seemed insincere at times. Now I remind you that was my perception then.

I have had some inspiring experiences happen recently that have opened me up to first comprehending that vantage point and then empathizing with it and finally finding it to be within me as well.

So first, thank you for your time. I really have learned a lot and have come to comprehend this paradigm much differently. My testimony is better for it.

Now the question - I have a member who from the last experience I related in a previous post has a daughter who has been turned onto anti-mormon material. The member now has also become concerned from the information her daughter shared. Her concerns revolve around Masonry and Temples. I am aware of both replies

1.) Masonry does share connections with ancient ritual.

2.)Joseph saw in the methodology (signs and symbols) a useful was to disseminate information even though the methods were not spiritual in and of themselves.

Now I am curious what do see as the apoligetic works or personal explanations that best assist someone who is concerned over the connection.

While I personally still believe that Masonry is made up of ritualistic expressions that goes back much further then Masonry's begginnings. But I want to be prepared to offer her the best available answers and not just my personal thoughts.

Also to tie in my mistake in the title I could add this as well.

We have had threads on Book Of Mormon Evidence so I don't want to repeat that but I could ask this.

What Book of Mormon Evidences do you see as indisputeable or super strong in critic being unable to really give a good explanation for?

There are several members of FAIR who are also masons, if you want to get their point of view, just ask through the contact page.

[Scott Lloyd]

By the way, had a brain lapse.... sorry but I was thinking about a Book of Mormon scripture when writing the title of this post and meant

Apoligetic Question On Masonry Evidence

Not sure what you are trying to say with it, but the word used here is misspelled. It is apologetic with an o between the l and the g.

[DBMormon]

deleted...pic didn't show up

Edited July 12, 2012 by DBMormon

[DBMormon]

This is a 12th century Naples Relief

any thoughts.... ha ha... I figured out how to include a picture.

Edited July 12, 2012 by DBMormon

[volgadon]

this is a 12th centuryNaples Relief

any thoughts.......

Nothing attached. =(

[Tacenda]

There are several members of FAIR who are also masons, if you want to get their point of view, just ask through the contact page.

http://www.fairlds.org/authors/misc/ask-the-apologist-similarities-between-masonic-and-mormon-temple-ritual