Kerry A. Shirts Posted July 4, 2012 Posted July 4, 2012 Some of the experiences were apparently seen as the same. Some were clearly not seen as the same.Doesn't it at least cause us to want to ask why it appears so difficult for the most powerful entity in all of existence to be unable to effectively communicate the same information in the same way to a few men?
Kerry A. Shirts Posted July 4, 2012 Posted July 4, 2012 I may have spoken too much. It might have been told confidentially and I feel badly that I may have said something in breach. I hope I did not. But I don't recall hearing a warning about it. That does not mean that I should have relayed it to others.I find this utterly truly remarkable. Here for the first time in literally decades we are supposed to finally have a communication from God, and it is supposed to be kept hush hush about what happened? What honestly are we supposed to make of this realistically? God really, really, NO...... REALLY wants to BLESS ALL MANKIND, but hey...... keep it down to just a few. The entire world YEARNS MIGHTILY for God to honestly talk to us, communicate, and when it is supposed to have happened, it is to be kept secret?! Please, I am serious, help me understand this. All this too sacred to talk about talk doesn't do it. IF God WANTS the world to KNOW Him and to SAVE the world, why on earth does he insist on secrecy, keeping any modern revelation quiet to only a few special chosen? It is simply senseless beyond description. This is exactly how men would act if God has NOT spoken, but had God honestly spoken and taught such a glorious thing, why on earth would the process and actuality be submerged into dark careful controlled secrecy for only the mostest holy of the holies to enjoy? I seriously do not understand. THIS, above all else, is what is seriously beginning to completely turn me off to Mormonism. Don't give me the inane crap argument that we all aren't holy enough either. I want answers. I suspect I already know what you will say however. 2
rpn Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 The sacred experiences of individuals belong to them, and their discussion of them should be their choice. That is not a church thing. It is a personal thing. 2
Deborah Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 I find this utterly truly remarkable. Here for the first time in literally decades we are supposed to finally have a communication from God, and it is supposed to be kept hush hush about what happened?Seriously, Kerry? We send missionaries throughout the world to spread the message. General Conference is broadcast worldwide in several formats with talks proclaiming the restoration, Jesus Christ, and giving admonition after admonition to get our lives in order spiritually and temporally with special emphasis on the temple the last few conferences. How is this hush hush?Have you heard any of Elder Holland's conference talks lately. No mincing words there and he's managed to rile up a lot of critics.If those who were listening had heeded Pres Hinckley's plea a few years ago to get out of debt they might have had an easier time when the housing market crashed. I know his several talks on this caused me to get out of debt and not accrue anything else meaning I put off buying that new car I needed. Was I glad I heeded that warning.I don't get all of you who say there is nothing being said when many of us are hearing so much coming out of conference and from other talks given both in Devotionals and most particularly when GA's come to Stake Conferences. 2
Kerry A. Shirts Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 The sacred experiences of individuals belong to them, and their discussion of them should be their choice. That is not a church thing. It is a personal thing.Not when it represents a church wide change of doctrine like the blacks and the Priesthood it isn't about individual revelation. If it's for the church, I don't give a flyin rip if its intending to act like a theocracy, we have the RIGHT to know. IF God honestly wants us to know about the truth and salvation, all this secrecy sacred hush hush is completely illogical and utterly silly. God simply won't act in that manner.....now man......why yes, secrecy is EXACTLY what we would expect if men are just trying to gain and keep power. 3
cinepro Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 What does "And all things shall be done by common consent in the church" mean? Does it mean that all revelations, declarations,social issues, what is taught in seminary manuals, etc are voted upon and the majority wins?Thanks,JimIt means that even if it comes from God, it needs a vote of approval. The Prophet isn't a spiritual dictator. 1
Evangeline Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 (edited) Not when it represents a church wide change of doctrine like the blacks and the Priesthood it isn't about individual revelation. If it's for the church, I don't give a flyin rip if its intending to act like a theocracy, we have the RIGHT to know. IF God honestly wants us to know about the truth and salvation, all this secrecy sacred hush hush is completely illogical and utterly silly. God simply won't act in that manner.....now man......why yes, secrecy is EXACTLY what we would expect if men are just trying to gain and keep power.I wonder how often God grants answers when they are demanded from Him. We don't have the right to know anything if it is not God's will. It would be as foolish as demanding that God reveal Himself to us. Sure, we might think all our problems would be solved and all our questions would be answered if He would just reveal Himself, but if He did and we weren't ready for it, that might not work out so well for us, if you get my drift. We cannot presume to understand God's logic. If we truly want answers from God, we need to humble ourselves and acknowledge that He is in control. However, just because we want something, it doesn't mean we're always going to get it. Life doesn't work that way and for good reason.Personally, I trust that the men who received that revelation were good, honest men and were not trying to gain and keep power. Because I trust that they were honest men, I also trust that their decision to not publicize every last detail of their experience was in keeping with God's will. I also trust that God knows infinitely more than me what is best for the church and every individual. Edited July 5, 2012 by Evangeline
Evangeline Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 Kerry, I acknowledge that I'm just a preschooler in my understanding. Compared to you in many respects, I'm sure I'm a few grades behind. Compared to God with His infinite postgraduate degrees, well, we both have a long way to go.
Stargazer Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 (edited) I find this utterly truly remarkable. Here for the first time in literally decades we are supposed to finally have a communication from God, and it is supposed to be kept hush hush about what happened? What honestly are we supposed to make of this realistically? God really, really, NO...... REALLY wants to BLESS ALL MANKIND, but hey...... keep it down to just a few. The entire world YEARNS MIGHTILY for God to honestly talk to us, communicate, and when it is supposed to have happened, it is to be kept secret?! Please, I am serious, help me understand this. All this too sacred to talk about talk doesn't do it. IF God WANTS the world to KNOW Him and to SAVE the world, why on earth does he insist on secrecy, keeping any modern revelation quiet to only a few special chosen? It is simply senseless beyond description. This is exactly how men would act if God has NOT spoken, but had God honestly spoken and taught such a glorious thing, why on earth would the process and actuality be submerged into dark careful controlled secrecy for only the mostest holy of the holies to enjoy? I seriously do not understand. THIS, above all else, is what is seriously beginning to completely turn me off to Mormonism. Don't give me the inane crap argument that we all aren't holy enough either. I want answers. I suspect I already know what you will say however.Well, I don't know if what I am about to say is what you suspect, but whatever.I don't know why explicit revelations are not bandied about in the public square and splashed on the silver screen like some "Lord of the Rings" trilogy movie. I don't know why Jesus told the apostles to shut the heck up about him being the Messiah and the Son of God. I don't know why Paul said he was shown things in the heavens that were unlawful to utter. I don't know why we were put here with absolutely no recollection of our pre-mortal lives. But we were. But Paul didn't dare utter them. But Jesus was dead serious about shutting the heck up about it. But Alma said there is not to be a bunch of revelation tossed out there into the public square to be mocked and derided like pearls before swine:And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the bmysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him. Alma 12:9Was that what you suspected? Jesus, Paul, and Alma are pretty good authorities on this matter, wouldn't you think?You're annoying. I hope you realize that I have the greatest respect for you and all those wonderful videos you post on YouTube (except for the chess videos, which were as boring as paint drying). But you're still annoying.Get a clue, dude, you're sputtering. Edited July 5, 2012 by Stargazer 1
Stargazer Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 The whole point of us being left in the freaking dark as much as we are is because (A) we won't appreciate the light without the dark and (B) if God Himself shows up and makes it bloody plain that He exists and will be mightily ticked off if we don't straighten up and fly right, then that destroys our agency as effectively as would Satan's plan to force us to be be good, except for the minor point that if some of us more rebellious types would refuse to comply in the face of God showing us that He really did exist and had expectations, then we'd qualify ourselves instantly for Outer Darkness.Plausible deniability is what saves our freedom to choose.It's like the observed electrons in the Double-slit Experiment: their state vectors are collapsed to clumps, instead of spreading out in an interference pattern.And saving our plausible deniability requires that we get only just so much. 1
Calm Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 It means that even if it comes from God, it needs a vote of approval. The Prophet isn't a spiritual dictator.More like a vote of acceptance, to take it on as binding for ourselves. 1
Storm Rider Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 More like a vote of acceptance, to take it on as binding for ourselves.That is a much more accurate understanding of the purpose. 1
DBMormon Posted July 5, 2012 Author Posted July 5, 2012 I don't know why explicit revelations are not bandied about in the public square and splashed on the silver screen like some "Lord of the Rings" trilogy movie. I don't know why Jesus told the apostles to shut the heck up about him being the Messiah and the Son of God. I don't know why Paul said he was shown things in the heavens that were unlawful to utter. I don't know why we were put here with absolutely no recollection of our pre-mortal lives. But we were. But Paul didn't dare utter them. But Jesus was dead serious about shutting the heck up about it. But Alma said there is not to be a bunch of revelation tossed out there into the public square to be mocked and derided like pearls before swine:There are not problems as you characterize them and the elephants in the room are not the baby elephants you keep hoping are going to trumpet an answer. In the very back corner is a humongous, Massive bull elephant who is sitting on his side, resting from all of the bellowing he has been doing hoping to get the attention over the mass of baby elephants making all the racket. He is obscured from your view because all you keep seeing are the baby elephants covering him from view. There is a work underfoot that you do not grasp yet. It seems to you to be a work to hide and protect the church. Completely, incorrect. We can flush these thoughts out further if we need to but when you think of Bruce R. McConkie's take on the 10 virgins and that they represent the members and that half will fall away, what do you think is going to separate the saints from one another. We do love each other and as a group are very tolerant when appropriate, but what is going to drive a wedge between the members to push them a part. Faith is the big Elephant lying on its side resting. The 50 % that fall away are those who do not realize that theology is built upon a requirement of faith. Without it none can please God. One can never overcome the theological demands of faith by an appeal to empirical proof. They are at odds. The one destroy the other. Proof will only leave you weak and unable to stand when stand you must. The one leads to life eternal the other leaves one unable to call upon God when the time is ripe for destruction. The work that is underfoot is the sifting of the wheat from the dross. In the coming days, I have no clue how long, but soon enough I am sure, the truths of the history of the church will save no lives. The only thing that will is in those, that live, breath, feel in their hearts and souls the faith that can stand this moment - the beginning onslaught against the church. It is the same ideological battle that pulled the third of heaven to follow Satan. It will escalate form here to becoming a physical battle and the world will be arrayed against us – It will take powerful faith, perhaps Enochian faith to turn the tides against those that would destroy the members of the church. You are only in the beginning stages of the battle of the war of words and ideals and you are already falling prey to the efforts. What will you do when destruction is between you and the powers of heaven to forestall. Faith – so few understand it is a genuine power. Sometimes I think that members are hell-bent on avoiding, denying, and fleeing away from the opportunities to exercise faith – the pwer tht holds worlds in their orbits and enables the creative efforts. We lip service it and then ignore it constantly. This day is a blessing to you. You are being tossed and torn and beaten and abused in the crucible of faith. The anxiety you feel is because you are slowly feeling the heat of the flames that will prepare some and destroy others.You acknowledge the need for faith but it has not impressed upon your soul the power of what faith really is. Again I ask, what did you think it would look like when we were in the middle of the sifting. IT LOOKS LIKE WHAT YOU ARE SEEING. It is painful, until the faith provides the healing and there is no faith in questioning the motives of the church. They know exactly what is happening and they are stemming it as best they can within the boundaries of agency, and teaching correct principle. I’m not going to expand further, I’ll see where this takes you.
Kerry A. Shirts Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 Kerry, I acknowledge that I'm just a preschooler in my understanding. Compared to you in many respects, I'm sure I'm a few grades behind. Compared to God with His infinite postgraduate degrees, well, we both have a long way to go.Can't argue with that...... and if God WANTS me to do something, I disagree with someone else who said I have no right to demand of God answers. Oh yes I most certainly do. I also have the right to say lookie here man, if you aren't going to make things clear to me, then I see no reason to believe what you are saying. Surely an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God can communicate if He desires to with each one of us can't he? I have a complete right to expect clarity and understanding.
Kerry A. Shirts Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 Well, I don't know if what I am about to say is what you suspect, but whatever.I don't know why explicit revelations are not bandied about in the public square and splashed on the silver screen like some "Lord of the Rings" trilogy movie. I don't know why Jesus told the apostles to shut the heck up about him being the Messiah and the Son of God. I don't know why Paul said he was shown things in the heavens that were unlawful to utter. I don't know why we were put here with absolutely no recollection of our pre-mortal lives. But we were. But Paul didn't dare utter them. But Jesus was dead serious about shutting the heck up about it. But Alma said there is not to be a bunch of revelation tossed out there into the public square to be mocked and derided like pearls before swine:Was that what you suspected? Jesus, Paul, and Alma are pretty good authorities on this matter, wouldn't you think?You're annoying. I hope you realize that I have the greatest respect for you and all those wonderful videos you post on YouTube (except for the chess videos, which were as boring as paint drying). But you're still annoying.Get a clue, dude, you're sputtering.Yes, I understand, as soon as someone begins to actually ask questions in Mornonism instead of simply repeating by rote what we are told to think, it IS annoying. I'm glad God doesn't think this way. Abraham would have gotten SLAPPED. The Brother of Jared would have got SPANKED and Joseph Smith would have been KILLED for asking questions. Being annoying is a minor inconvenience accompanied by someone who really wants to know so doesn't just believe everything being told, but instead wants to reason things out. After all God DID tell Joseph Smith "Come let us reason together," he didn't say, "dude shut up and believe me already man you are annoying." I thank God for that! But I get the hint, I can always find somewhere else where I am not annoying.
Pahoran Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 Can't argue with that...... and if God WANTS me to do something, I disagree with someone else who said I have no right to demand of God answers. Oh yes I most certainly do. I also have the right to say lookie here man, if you aren't going to make things clear to me, then I see no reason to believe what you are saying. Surely an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God can communicate if He desires to with each one of us can't he? I have a complete right to expect clarity and understanding.I'm sorry Kerry, but I have to disagree with you. When we stand before the throne of grace in our proper status as beggars, with nothing to offer and no bargaining power, we have no right to expect anything at all.The Lord rarely explains why He does something or tells us to do something. When He does give commands, they are invariably for our benefit, although almost never for the reasons we might expect.Within reason, though, He tolerates our unbelief, and our toddleresque strings of why's. But understand: "Why are you asking us to take our families and flee into the wilderness" is a completely different question to "why did those guys do what they did a hundred and fifty years ago?"Regards,Pahoran 1
Calm Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 Can't argue with that...... and if God WANTS me to do something, I disagree with someone else who said I have no right to demand of God answers. Oh yes I most certainly do. I also have the right to say lookie here man, if you aren't going to make things clear to me, then I see no reason to believe what you are saying. Surely an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God can communicate if He desires to with each one of us can't he? I have a complete right to expect clarity and understanding.What do you think about timing? IOW, by when does God owe you an explanation? here and now....before you make a final choice to become one with him, after that choice, or sometime in between?
Stargazer Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 Yes, I understand, as soon as someone begins to actually ask questions in Mornonism instead of simply repeating by rote what we are told to think, it IS annoying. I'm glad God doesn't think this way. Abraham would have gotten SLAPPED. The Brother of Jared would have got SPANKED and Joseph Smith would have been KILLED for asking questions. Being annoying is a minor inconvenience accompanied by someone who really wants to know so doesn't just believe everything being told, but instead wants to reason things out. After all God DID tell Joseph Smith "Come let us reason together," he didn't say, "dude shut up and believe me already man you are annoying." I thank God for that! But I get the hint, I can always find somewhere else where I am not annoying.No you don't -- you MISunderstand. I love questions, I love new knowledge, and I love you, too. What you wrote above wasn't annoying because you asked questions (was that what you posted that I responded to "question posing" -- didn't read like it to me). It was annoying because it sounded like some kind of weak-faithed hissy fit, and entirely unlike you. I expect (and welcome) great questions from you. What I responded to didn't seem anything of the kind -- did I miss something? So it was annoying.In fact, I have for some time been wondering why you were staying away from this place, so don't go away again on my account.
Aminadab Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 As others have pointed out already, God uses revelation and secrecy as tools to coax His silly children into seeking truth and appreciating what they have received when it is given. I like Kerry's thought-provoking question, but then I usually do like his posts. Kerry has a refreshing frankness that challenges the sacred cows of others, not because he disrespects, but because he wil not be deterred from his quest for truth. 2
CASteinman Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 I find this utterly truly remarkable. Here for the first time in literally decades we are supposed to finally have a communication from God, and it is supposed to be kept hush hush about what happened?... Don't give me the inane crap argument that we all aren't holy enough either. I want answers. I suspect I already know what you will say however.You will just have to get over it I guess. Because that is how it is. (was that what you expected?)
Bernard Gui Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 What are we to make from these three statements regarding the great pronouncement or declarationThat the revelation did not correct a mistake or a bad policy, but was concerned with doctrinal practice.Bernard
Bernard Gui Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 More like a vote of acceptance, to take it on as binding for ourselves.More like a sustaining vote.Bernard 1
Bernard Gui Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 (edited) I was a young married man with a family when I heard the news regarding the lifting of the ban. I immediately thought...."What took you guys so long....??????"Our young family was on the freeway moving from Illinois to Washingtonwhen we heard it on the radio news.Mrs. Gui and I wept tears of joy and gratitude as the Spirit confirmedit to our souls. Surely a defining moment in our lives.Bernard Edited July 9, 2012 by Bernard Gui 1
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