Tacenda Posted July 1, 2012 Posted July 1, 2012 A few years ago I saw this article in the Sunstone Symposium. I ordered the article for $2.00 and read it and was alarmed at it. I then turned to FAIR and they acknowledged that they had heard something about it from Sunstone, but didn't have an answer for it. Therefore I guess I'll turn it over to the apologetics on this forum. Should any of this concern me or is it hogwash? The reason I brought it up was because in another thread someone mentioned Black Pete, and it sparked my memory, apparently Black Pete is an early convert and was a root doctor and was around during Joseph Smith's visionary episodes. Here is an article about it. http://robschneider.hubpages.com/hub/Was-Mormon-Founder-Joseph-Smith-a-Closet-Hippy Your thoughts?
thesometimesaint Posted July 1, 2012 Posted July 1, 2012 Without further evidence put it in the hogwash compartment.
Pahoran Posted July 1, 2012 Posted July 1, 2012 A few years ago I saw this article in the Sunstone Symposium. I ordered the article for $2.00 and read it and was alarmed at it. I then turned to FAIR and they acknowledged that they had heard something about it from Sunstone, but didn't have an answer for it. Therefore I guess I'll turn it over to the apologetics on this forum. Should any of this concern me or is it hogwash? The reason I brought it up was because in another thread someone mentioned Black Pete, and it sparked my memory, apparently Black Pete is an early convert and was a root doctor and was around during Joseph Smith's visionary episodes. Here is an article about it. http://robschneider....-a-Closet-Hippy Your thoughts?I think Rob was smokin' some good stuff when he wrote that.It's late-twentieth century presentism. The thing with presentism is that it looks really cool, hip and, like, now -- when it resonates with the present. After a few years, it starts to look horribly dated and embarrassingly passé. Like those 1970's platform shoes your uncle still has in his closet.Regards,Pahoran 1
volgadon Posted July 1, 2012 Posted July 1, 2012 The title should clue you in that it is a rip-off of John Allegro's baloney. I would also disagree that the visionary era of the church ended in 1844. Even skimming through the Journal of Discoures would show that view to be incorrect, and examining Mormon folklore strengthens that conclusion. 2
Duncan Posted July 1, 2012 Posted July 1, 2012 I wonder what Elder Haight was using and many other leaders and members of the Church as well when they recorded their visions? Heck, even non members. If I use these substances will that absolutely guarantee that I will have a vision of God? 2
CASteinman Posted July 1, 2012 Posted July 1, 2012 The original paper is not there, this is just a blogger type article, but ... what I see here is awfully thin. I know a bit about Mushrooms and there are all kinds of side effects from the Fly Agaric that don't appear in Church History. Also. the presumption of many visions vs limited visions later on is not correct. its a very weak proposition... with no evidence just innuendo. 1
Popular Post rameumptom Posted July 2, 2012 Popular Post Posted July 2, 2012 Hard to explain the Kirtland Temple Pentecost by having one person using mushrooms. When hundreds of people inside and outside the temple see angels, great lights, sounds, etc., it points away from mushrooms.Also, when one considers there is no evidence of anyone actually using psychedelics prior to receiving a vision, especially when more than one was receiving the vision, then it is just happenstance. You may as well say that Joseph Smith was visited by space aliens.... 5
Deborah Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 Hard to explain the Kirtland Temple Pentecost by having one person using mushrooms. When hundreds of people inside and outside the temple see angels, great lights, sounds, etc., it points away from mushrooms.Don't you know it was a mass hallucination! Seriously, when I read the title I started laughing. Joseph Smith a hippy? LOL.
Tacenda Posted July 2, 2012 Author Posted July 2, 2012 (edited) Don't you know it was a mass hallucination! Seriously, when I read the title I started laughing. Joseph Smith a hippy? LOL.Very hippy minded, free love etc. He and his father were both universalists at one time. So there, haha. Edited July 2, 2012 by Tacenda
Mark Beesley Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 If I use these substances will that absolutely guarantee that I will have a vision of God?I thought I saw heaven once when I dropped some mescaline, but it pretty obvious to me that it was the drug talking and not God.
Calm Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 The New World has plenty of its own variety of natural hallucinogenics. Don't know what was locally available, but I bet there was something.http://www.amazon.com/Hallucinogenic-Plants-America-Psycho-mycological-studies/dp/0914728164http://www.ehow.com/info_8059409_hallucinogenic-plants-native-united-states.html
Storm Rider Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 (edited) I detest these types of titles. It always makes me wonder about the true motivations of those who write them. They seem to be common on this board and I wish it was not so, but then the devil will always play his games. Edited July 3, 2012 by Storm Rider
Tacenda Posted July 3, 2012 Author Posted July 3, 2012 You pegged me. But I'm digging for good reason.
Tacenda Posted December 17, 2013 Author Posted December 17, 2013 http://www.blogtalkradio.com/prophecykeepers/2013/04/22/oklevueha-radio--early-mormon-psychedelic-voyages Came across this podcast while on another forum. Really gives the impression that people did use substances to help facilitate visions or spiritual experiences. It features Robert T. Beckstead and James W. Mooney. Both LDS, or were at one time. This is rich with interesting things. Not going to say I believe JS used these means, but if he did, don't believe it was a terrible thing. Especially if many tribes use these means in their worship services and it's legal. They bring in some of Michael Quinn's research. Also speak about anointing with oil and curing illness with it. But the kind that is used in the bible contains Cannabis. They even mention Benjamin Franklin and someone else, forget, that grew Cannabis. Just like actual Cocaine was an ingredient in the first Coca-Cola, is in itself telling. According to one of these men, or all, Peyote helps with taking tests etc., they do better than others. Some of this stuff that is new to me. The podcast runs 1 hr. and 44 min. Boy, I need a life!
Calm Posted December 17, 2013 Posted December 17, 2013 Whether or not there is evidence that other people used such substances, did they provide any evidence that JS did? Besides 'well, he had a vision, how else could that have happened?'?
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted December 17, 2013 Posted December 17, 2013 A few years ago I saw this article in the Sunstone Symposium. I ordered the article for $2.00 and read it and was alarmed at it. I then turned to FAIR and they acknowledged that they had heard something about it from Sunstone, but didn't have an answer for it. Therefore I guess I'll turn it over to the apologetics on this forum. Should any of this concern me or is it hogwash? The reason I brought it up was because in another thread someone mentioned Black Pete, and it sparked my memory, apparently Black Pete is an early convert and was a root doctor and was around during Joseph Smith's visionary episodes. Here is an article about it. http://robschneider.hubpages.com/hub/Was-Mormon-Founder-Joseph-Smith-a-Closet-Hippy Your thoughts?I think the greatest prophecy Joseph ever made is the one given him in the first vision, that "his name would be had for both good and evil among all the Nations of the earth". It is not enough that they killed him...they are still trying to kill him. This article makes me sick...I won't give my opinion of Sunstone as it may hurt some feelings.
strappinglad Posted December 17, 2013 Posted December 17, 2013 Some folks will rag on Joseph Smith ...... because they had fried chicken for supper. If they need an excuse, any excuse will do.
Stone holm Posted December 17, 2013 Posted December 17, 2013 http://www.blogtalkradio.com/prophecykeepers/2013/04/22/oklevueha-radio--early-mormon-psychedelic-voyages Came across this podcast while on another forum. Really gives the impression that people did use substances to help facilitate visions or spiritual experiences. It features Robert T. Beckstead and James W. Mooney. Both LDS, or were at one time. This is rich with interesting things. Not going to say I believe JS used these means, but if he did, don't believe it was a terrible thing. Especially if many tribes use these means in their worship services and it's legal. They bring in some of Michael Quinn's research. Also speak about anointing with oil and curing illness with it. But the kind that is used in the bible contains Cannabis. They even mention Benjamin Franklin and someone else, forget, that grew Cannabis. Just like actual Cocaine was an ingredient in the first Coca-Cola, is in itself telling. According to one of these men, or all, Peyote helps with taking tests etc., they do better than others. Some of this stuff that is new to me. The podcast runs 1 hr. and 44 min. Boy, I need a life!There have been rumors that the Founding Fathers of the Nation cultivated and exchanged cannabis seeds, have not seen any historical studies to verify that, but given their interest in horticulture and other intoxicants, have no reason to doubt either. But this does not seem plausible for the Prophet.
halconero Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 So many of these articles are based on the premise that Joseph did not have genuine visions of God. It is the basis for all drug induced, self deceptive, hullicinatory explanations of the Restoration. Few actually beg the question "what if it was genuine?"
Tacenda Posted December 18, 2013 Author Posted December 18, 2013 I'm not trying to rag on JS, I see that again he may only be a product of his environment. It's interesting what is available in the earth, and maybe God put it there for reasons. Why couldn't he have had a vision?Something else came up that put to rest my assumption that one of his stones was a petrified mushroom. Well it isn't, but is a stone made to look like one. Why would Joseph have this? Could it have been an offering from the indians? The podcast mentions that he made friends with them.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 (edited) I'm not trying to rag on JS, I see that again he may only be a product of his environment. It's interesting what is available in the earth, and maybe God put it there for reasons. Why couldn't he have had a vision?Something else came up that put to rest my assumption that one of his stones was a petrified mushroom. Well it isn't, but is a stone made to look like one. Why would Joseph have this? Could it have been an offering from the indians? The podcast mentions that he made friends with them.You should let this go...you may not think so but you are suggesting that it might be correct. Like I said they killed Joseph and since 1844, others have been trying to kill his name. Don't be one of them or assist them in their work. Edited December 18, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee
Tacenda Posted December 18, 2013 Author Posted December 18, 2013 You should let this go...you may not think so but you are suggesting that it might be correct. Like I said they killed Joseph and since 1844, others have been trying to kill his name. Don't be one of them or assist them in their work. How is it wrong to get help facilitating a spiritual experience? That's more what the podcast is about. But I'll let it go. No one pay it any mind.
Storm Rider Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 It is so strange to read these wild hypotheses. I guess where I always come back is to the foundation of what I know of his teachings about the gospel of Jesus Christ; nothing comes close to such a pure summation of the purpose of creation and where we are going and how. Without such teachings this world, this mortal existence, is only a torture chamber for a very needy deity. Considering the truths of the gospel, is there a need to really consider these alternative explanations?
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 How is it wrong to get help facilitating a spiritual experience? That's more what the podcast is about. But I'll let it go. No one pay it any mind.Spiritual experiences don't come from being high or stoned. I believe Joseph to be a Prophet and love him for his work.
Tacenda Posted December 18, 2013 Author Posted December 18, 2013 Spiritual experiences don't come from being high or stoned. I believe Joseph to be a Prophet and love him for his work.I again, wasn't talking about JS. More not faulting the indians for the way they get a spiritual occurrence, I've changed my thinking,
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