John Dehlin...Giant Killer

[wenglund]

Really? You must be quite a good swimmer!

Actually, as a longtime sailor, I am familiar enough with various survival strategies to know that swimming isn't the only alternative. And, as a longtime participant in discussions on faith, I am also aware of when an analogy is extended beyond its intended meaning.

However, I appreciate the jovial back-and-forth.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Calm]

Actually, as a longtime sailor, I am familiar enough with various survival strategies to know that swimming isn't the only alternative. And, as a longtime participant in discussions on faith, I am also aware of when an analogy is extended beyond its intended meaning.

However, I appreciate the jovial back-and-forth.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

For the analogy, you could always throw in that the Lord always provides lifeboats for those looking for them so one doesn't have to swim all the way back to shore on one's own even if the ship has sunk.... Edited June 26, 2012 by calmoriah

[wenglund]

For the analogy, you could always throw in that the Lord always provides lifeboats for those looking for them so one doesn't have to swim all the way back to shore on one's own even if the ship has sunk....

Good point.

Besides, it isn't as though we are sailing the seven sea all alone. We have a flotilla of millions of worthy sailors to help in times of need. And, freighters like FARMS and FAIR may assist in righting our little sloops.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[selek1]

Really? You must be quite a good swimmer!

A ship's captain, by maritime law, is ultimately responsible for the safety and management of his vessel, and for safeguarding her crew, passengers, and cargo.

Yet in treacherous or unfamiliar waters, the Captain turns to his

for guidance.

With the proper pilot, tempests may rage, typhoons may howl, and rocks and shoals may beckon- but the ship will come through safely.

Those of us who know and trust our pilot need not fear deep water.

Those who do not heed him, however...

[Scott Lloyd]

It has been my experience that LDS church meetings continue to teach Primary lessons until we are old and gray, as evidenced by the fact that the priesthood/relief society manual for this year is the same as for the investigator's class.

Actually, that was last year. The manual for this year is Teachings of Presidents of the Church: George Albert Smith.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[wenglund]

A ship's captain, by maritime law, is ultimately responsible for the safety and management of his vessel, and for safeguarding her crew, passengers, and cargo.

Yet in treacherous or unfamiliar waters, the Captain turns to his

for guidance.

With the proper pilot, tempests may rage, typhoons may howl, and rocks and shoals may beckon- but the ship will come through safely.

Those of us who know and trust our pilot need not fear deep water.

Those who do not heed him, however...

As usually, nicely said!!

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

Actually, that was last year. The manual for this year is Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: George Albert Smith.

It has got to sting upon being made aware that one's gripes are unwittingly outdated.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Libs]

Actually, as a longtime sailor, I am familiar enough with various survival strategies to know that swimming isn't the only alternative. And, as a longtime participant in discussions on faith, I am also aware of when an analogy is extended beyond its intended meaning.

However, I appreciate the jovial back-and-forth.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

For the analogy, you could always throw in that the Lord always provides lifeboats for those looking for them so one doesn't have to swim all the way back to shore on one's own even if the ship has sunk....

Good point.

Besides, it isn't as though we are sailing the seven sea all alone. We have a flotilla of millions of worthy sailors to help in times of need. And, freighters like FARMS and FAIR may assist in righting our little sloops.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

A ship's captain, by maritime law, is ultimately responsible for the safety and management of his vessel, and for safeguarding her crew, passengers, and cargo.

Yet in treacherous or unfamiliar waters, the Captain turns to his

for guidance.

With the proper pilot, tempests may rage, typhoons may howl, and rocks and shoals may beckon- but the ship will come through safely.

Those of us who know and trust our pilot need not fear deep water.

Those who do not heed him, however...

Okay, I see you all have it all figured out. I give!

Nice song, selek. I don't think I've ever heard that one. Thanks.

[sunstoned]

I know people who make this claim...I have made it, myself. I did go to FARMS for answers...I read a lot, there, but I don't think I was in a frame of mind to really accept a lot of it. It was kind of hit and miss for me. The one thing that did have an impact (finally) was Michael Ash's book, "Shaken Faith Syndrome". I even went back to the church for several months after reading it. But, going back was difficult and I was still very unsure about the issues I was dealing with, so I ended up leaving, again.

Leaving can be very complicated and emotionally unsettling. I can totally believe that people go to FARMS/MI or FAIR and still not feel satisfied, because for many/most of the questions we deal with, there are no cut and dry answers (which is what many of us are looking for).

I agree completely with this. Your experience is very similar to mine.

[Libs]

I agree completely with this. Your experience is very similar to mine.

Yeah, I think ours is a fairly common story.

[Libs]

I don't blame FARMS/MI/FAIR for my leaving, though I think, for most of us, it's a lot more complicated than not finding satisfactory answers.

[wenglund]

Okay, I see you all have it all figured out. I give!

Nice song, selek. I don't think I've ever heard that one. Thanks.

Your a good sport for playing or singing alone.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Libs]

Thanks, Wade...you too.

I do still believe in and follow Jesus Christ, btw...to the best of my ability.

[Heide]

Dehlin hasn't accomplished anything. The doctrine of the Church has not really changed in many many decades. Sonia Johnson couldn't change it. Ed Decker couldn't change it. The Tanner's couldn't change it. The antiMormon evangelical movement has lost the battle (and they don't even know it). The homosexual lobby has failed to change it. Likewise, Dehlin will also fail to change it.

Doctrine may not change but culture does. Dehlin is not looking to change doctrine, but rather how active members and church leadership interact with those that challenge their faith. Specifically, there is a challenge to the culture of assigning ill to those who go inactive or leave the church by actively speculating that these folks were insulted, desire to sin, value their intellect over the spirit--MIlk and Strippings and that old chestnut.

[CASteinman]

Doctrine may not change but culture does. Dehlin is not looking to change doctrine, but rather how active members and church leadership interact with those that challenge their faith. Specifically, there is a challenge to the culture of assigning ill to those who go inactive or leave the church by actively speculating that these folks were insulted, desire to sin, value their intellect over the spirit--MIlk and Strippings and that old chestnut.

I don't think Dehlin is trying to change anything. I believe he is just a non-believer who has a fascination with a faith he no longer believes in -- and maybe never really did.

But everyone who loses faith in the Gospel does indeed sin. It is too bad that saying this is offensive, but it is that way according to the Revelations of God. His desire to impress upon the faithful that this perception is false is, itself, a false teaching.

[Robert F. Smith]

There is really no such thing as a part-time Mormon.

Yeh, and there is no such thing as a Jack-Mormon, or a TBM, etc.

As far as I can tell there are Mormons in good standing who don't go to the temple and don't have a recommend. There are Mormons on the books who just don't attend church at all (well maybe every 2 years or so), others who smoke and drink and maybe even cuss a bit. Some wear beards and some don't. There are Mormons extant across the broad spectrum. Part-time, full-time, quien sabe?

[why me]

I don't think Dehlin is trying to change anything. I believe he is just a non-believer who has a fascination with a faith he no longer believes in -- and maybe never really did.

He may also enjoy the attention his podcasts generate. He certainly is an internet personality in mormon circles.

[Calm]

He may also enjoy the attention his podcasts generate. He certainly is an internet personality in mormon circles.

Pay isn't bad either.

[CASteinman]

Pay isn't bad either.

How much does he make?

[GreyHat]

I don't think Dehlin is trying to change anything. I believe he is just a non-believer who has a fascination with a faith he no longer believes in -- and maybe never really did.

But everyone who loses faith in the Gospel does indeed sin. It is too bad that saying this is offensive, but it is that way according to the Revelations of God. His desire to impress upon the faithful that this perception is false is, itself, a false teaching.

Comments like this are exactly why a support group for those who question is needed. People who question are regularly suspected of engaging in sin or using using intellectual reasons to cover for misbehavior.

[GreyHat]

He may also enjoy the attention his podcasts generate. He certainly is an internet personality in mormon circles.

Pay isn't bad either.

It a critic implied that an apologist was motivated by attention or money, what would your response be?

[CASteinman]

Comments like this are exactly why a support group for those who question is needed. People who question are regularly suspected of engaging in sin or using using intellectual reasons to cover for misbehavior.

I think this is a false accusation against the membership and/or the leadership of the Church and entirely misrepresents the statement I made as well.

My comment had nothing to do with people who question. I question all the time. In 35 years of membership I have never seen a faithful member who had questions about one thing or the other ever be accused of sinning because they had questions.

My statement was not about people who question. It was about people who lose faith in the Gospel. As it is said in the D&C

Therefore, having so great witnesses, by them shall the world be judged, even as many as shall hereafter come to a knowledge of this work. And those who receive it in faith, and work righteousness, shall receive a crown of eternal life; but those who harden their hearts in unbelief, and reject it, it shall turn to their own condemnation— For the Lord God has spoken it

I have, however, seen people who have sinned refuse to accept that judgment. This is especially true for the people whose sin is rebellion. They reject either the notion that rebellion and pride are sins or they reject that they are even engaging in pride and rebellion -- that its not them at fault but others such as the brethren or the members.

Spiritual Blindness hardens their hearts and corrupts their insights -- both in my observation and according to the Scriptures.

And there are already many support organizations within the Church for people who question: Priesthood, Home Teaching, Relief Society, Sunday School, Seminary, Institute, Bishoprics, Stake Presidents and so on.

**Edited because the first version was not precisely my view and I had to reword it.

Edited June 29, 2012 by CASteinman

[GreyHat]

My comment had nothing to do with people who question and in 35 years of membership I have never seen a faithful member who had questions about one thing or the other accused of sinning.

I think this is a false accusation against the membership or the leadership of the Church.

"In later years, I saw a few leave the Church who could then never leave it alone. They used often their intellectual reservations to cover their behavioral lapses"

Neal A. Maxwell

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2004/04/remember-how-merciful-the-lord-hath-been?lang=

Again this is why a support group for those who question or leave is needed.

[Craig Paxton]

He may also enjoy the attention his podcasts generate. He certainly is an internet personality in mormon circles.

Yes ...he is motivated by his personal pride and his desire of self-aggrandizement and the attention his podcasts generate...a megalomaniac His pod-cast is his own personal phallic symbol built to promote himself and his desires of world pod-cast domination. What a sick, discussing “B-word for female dogs”. All those hours and hours of pod casts so thinly veiled as being some tool to reach out and assist those who doubt…when in reality he is actually only seeking self-glorification and ill gotten pecuniary gain. What a phoney.

Well at least we’ve exposed his true motivations for all the world to see…and why he discloses all of that money he makes openingly and in full public view I'll never understand....he should really follow the example set by the church.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Craig Paxton

[John Ping Pong]

You clearly haven't been to church this year....

Actually, I have.

And it is always the same. The manual covers may change, but the contents do not.

Some wit once said the Wilford Woodruff manual seemed intent on taking every uninteresting thing Wilford Woodruff ever said and putting them in one book.

Primary classes taught to the hoary headed.

Only without the hangman to make it marginally interesting.

Where's B.H. Roberts when you need him?