Mormon Softball Team Banned From Mercer County Christian League

[Mark Beesley]

Any "'Mormon' softball league" likely to exist in the real world would almost certainly be a stake or regional league, operated under the aegis of a very specific and well defined legal/ecclesiastical entity.

"Christianity" is neither a specific Church organization nor a legally defined corporate body.

So No, that analogy fails.

He said it was an imperfect analogy, but it certainly does not "fail," other than the fact that it fails to convince everyone.

[Sophocles]

It's true that in this case the organizations involved blundered in a way that the LDS church is unlikely ever to do by using an imprecise term like "Christian" to characterize which churches were invited to participate in their league. Even in the rare instances where the LDS Church does use the term "Mormon" such as with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, it is abundantly clear that not everyone who self-identifies as Mormon is invited to participate.

The value of the analogy is that it helps us to consider that it's possible for one church or group of churches to exclude another from its activities for reasons having nothing to do with bigotry.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Sophocles

[Jaybear]

Any "'Mormon' softball league" likely to exist in the real world would almost certainly be a stake or regional league, operated under the aegis of a very specific and well defined legal/ecclesiastical entity.

"Christianity" is neither a specific Church organization nor a legally defined corporate body.

So No, that analogy fails.

Tell that to Kevin who just welcomed a lesbian softball team in this hypothetical "Mormon" league.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Tell that to Kevin who just welcomed a lesbian softball team in this hypothetical "Mormon" league.

Um, I fail to see how this is even remotely similar.

The one thing I will say is that I really don't care what this group chooses to do. They have a right to include or exclude who ever they want.

[selek1]

I find that rationales offered to be deeply amusing.

If being "Mormon" truly disqualified the players as "Christians", then the players themselves would be banned, rather than a team.

This is- in my not-so-humble opinion- all about fear.

They want to keep the Mormons (comparatively) isolated, where they will pose less of a threat.

They're apparently quite happy to fellowship with Mormons in "controllable" doses- where their psyches and testimonies outnumber and outweigh those insidious "non-Christians".

Outnumbering the Mormons, they can attempt to sway these benighted souls into the "one-true-Christian^TM" fold with comparatively little risk of the reverse happening.

And if any member of the pack gets too "friendly" or "thoughtful" with the token outsider, the rest of the pack can push him back into line.

Of course, I'm also reminded of Cap'n Pappy's (Hal Holbrook) line from Men of Honor: "Two teaspoons of machine oil will contaminate an entire ship's water supply."

Though it was intended as a racial slur, it was correct in one measure: once the line is crossed, there is no going back.

Assuming that our brethren comport themselves as such, the provincial, sectarian attitude on display by these so-called "Christians" is doomed.

[selek1]

The value of the analogy is that it helps us to consider that it's possible for one church or group of churches to exclude another from its activities for reasons having nothing to do with bigotry.

I am inclined to agree that such reasons are possible.

Given their stated, official reasons, however such speculation is pointless.

One need not speculate about possible non-sexist motives for a ban that specifically targets women for the alleged crime of "not being men". The stated, official rationale is clearly sexist.

Likewise, the official, stated rationale from the softball league is the highly debatable and fatally subjective creed that "Mormons are not Christian". That, too, is clearly bigoted.

I am more than happy to agree with the others here that point out the league is well within their rights to make this decision.

We, likewise, are perfectly within our rights to point out why their rationale is flawed, fearful bigotry disguised as ecumenicism.

According to the league managers, Mormons as a group do not belong in a "Christian" baseball league.

That precisely mirrors the sort of reasoning that strove to keep Jackie Robinson in the Negro leagues "where he belonged".

Edited May 25, 2012 by selek1

[Scott Lloyd]

He said it was an imperfect analogy, but it certainly does not "fail," other than the fact that it fails to convince everyone.

An analogy can fail on purely logical grounds, regardless of how persuasive it may seem at first glance.

It is not unlike sophistry in that respect.

Even imperfect analogies, if they are well-constructed, are logically sound.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

I think what he's getting at, Bro. Ron, is that it would be unloving of them to allow us to play. (I know. I don't get it, either, but there it is ...)

It's unloving in the sense that they might give the impression to the unsaved that they are saved, thus impeding their rejection of a nonchristian faith for a true faith in Christ (in their POV). Think of it as if we didn't teach to nonmembers our belief that temple ordinances were essential for exaltation.

[rodheadlee]

They were just afraid of losing.

[Bob Oliverio]

According to the league managers, Mormons as a group do not belong in a "Christian" baseball league.

That precisely mirrors the sort of reasoning that strove to keep Jackie Robinson in the Negro leagues "where he belonged".

Exactly!  Jackie Robinson wasn't judged "worthy" enough to be admitted to the highest level of what he pursued merely because of the color of his skin.  The arrogance and bigotry of such organizations!

Good thing we can see it so clearly - NOW!

But at least Robinson, and the equality he stood for, have both received apologies over the years for the obvious bigotry and discrimination from MOST organizations and people who treated him wrongly.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Bob Oliverio

[rodheadlee]

Luke 6:

22 Blessed are ye, when men shall ^ahate you, and when they shall ^bseparate you from their company, and shall ^creproach you, and ^dcast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake

[Mudcat]

It's unloving in the sense that they might give the impression to the unsaved that they are saved, thus impeding their rejection of a nonchristian faith for a true faith in Christ (in their POV).

I think that was a fair summary Cal. I disagree with their particular stance and handling of the thing.

In some respects I understand them not sanctioning LDS teams if it's their belief that LDS aren't Christian, it would be similar to denying Muslims, Hindus and such in what they believe is a Christian league. But what confuses the situation is that they allow some LDS to play on their teams. I imagine they feel it's outreach in that respect , but the denial of an LDS team while inviting LDS players doesn't make it seem like their outreach is far reaching at all.

Wonder if the LDS will have to ride in back of the bus on away games;)

[Calm]

Totally agree, but out of rep points.

[mbh26]

I thought Mormons and Christians both worked six days a week then dedicated their Sunday to God. Any time the man has left belongs to his family. How did they ever fit in softball? Maybe neither of them are saved because they haven't given their entire selves to God.

[Storm Rider]

I saw this article and was wondering what the members of this board think about the decision of the league. It seems a little inconsistent to me to allow members to play on other teams but not have their own team. Thoughts?

MERCER COUNTY, Pa. —

Members of one church were told they weren't allowed to participate in a Mercer County softball league because of their beliefs.

Players from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Slippery Rock said they were told they couldn't participate in the Grove City Area Church softball league because they're Mormon.

The Grove City Area Church league is made up of 11 teams. Players said when they received word that LDS Church members may participate, three of the teams refused to play if the Mormon team was accepted.

The president of the league released a statement saying, "The GCA church softball league is intended for fellowship among Christian churches. Not for members of different faiths. To call a group who proclaims a different gospel of salvation of Christian church is not only untrue, it is unloving. We cannot do this. We will not do this."

League officials took a vote and refused to allow the team into the league. The league's president said members of the church are still welcome to play in the league, just not as a team.

• Link: http://www.wpxi.com/...christia/nPDBh/
  

This kind of behavior is old hat in the South. I would hope that there are pockets of dissent where LDS are allowed to participate in church leagues, but it is de rigeur that LDS not be allowed to play where Southern Baptists are out in force. If we were to record all of the instances where LDS are denied access to these types of activities there would not be enough books to contain it.

It gets even more sticky when LDS are denied access to County field houses/playing fields because of their faith. Christians have a long way to go before Muslims or Jews or any other religion would be able to recognize them as actual followers of Christ. They too often exhibit the behavior more akin to Satan and his ilk. Geez, I hate saying that because it sounds so crazy, but their actions speak so loudly. The kicker; it is done in "love" and that is supposed to make it all better.

[rpn]

It would be so very great if that LDS ball team and all their family and friends went to every ball game and supported everyone, and provided free lemonade and goodwill to the other teams. But as I recall there isn't a very large LDS population there.

[Ron Beron]

I think what he's getting at, Bro. Ron, is that it would be unloving of them to allow us to play. (I know. I don't get it, either, but there it is ...)

I know, I know...play baseball, go to he**.

[Bob Oliverio]

Unusual post-script encounter to this story.  Wife and I went to a weekend picnic/BBQ out in Stone Mountain yesterday w friends, some from church and others who are no longer members.  Kind of a mixed group of young, older, professional, believing and those on to different ways.  We had  a beautiful space for activities but not enough for softball until one guy introduced a one of those old tether balls and a small bat to play a game.  Was fun and reduced space needs.  

This article came up after the game and I was surprised how many had even heard of it.  It's interesting for me as a new member to watch and listen from those still active and those who are on to different things.  

It really was a fun outing and fun way to play softball - all had a blast.  But when the subject was brought up for discussion, and in a most compassionate way by a long time active member who was obviously disturbed by the exclusion of the LDS teams, another member (not sure if he was active or not) simply responded: "exactly how I felt being exclude from seeing my daughter being married in the Mesa temple"!  Could have heard a pin drop in a group that was having such a great time up until then.  We didn't know this gentleman, but he seemed so nice and gracious the entire day up until that sudden moment.  

Kind of puts the meaning of "exclusion" in real context.

[KevinG]

The more analogous question is whether the Mormon fundamentalists would be allowed to field a team in a "Mormon" softball league.

You could field a whole team with each family. Maybe a whole league.

[KevinG]

I thought Mormons and Christians both worked six days a week then dedicated their Sunday to God. Any time the man has left belongs to his family. How did they ever fit in softball? Maybe neither of them are saved because they haven't given their entire selves to God.

I've often said a good priesthood holder should be a lousy golfer.

[Storm Rider]

It really was a fun outing and fun way to play softball - all had a blast. But when the subject was brought up for discussion, and in a most compassionate way by a long time active member who was obviously disturbed by the exclusion of the LDS teams, another member (not sure if he was active or not) simply responded: "exactly how I felt being exclude from seeing my daughter being married in the Mesa temple"! Could have heard a pin drop in a group that was having such a great time up until then. We didn't know this gentleman, but he seemed so nice and gracious the entire day up until that sudden moment.

Kind of puts the meaning of "exclusion" in real context.

You really think there is a comparison between the two things? I am sorry, but there are only two people this father should talk to and that is their children that chose to marry in the temple. It has nothing to do with the Church and everything to do with the choice of a couple seeking to be married for all time and eternity. You want to enter the temple there is a clear path to doing so. If you don't want to enter the temple the choice is yours. If the couple wants their parents to see a ceremony, then do one outside the temple for their sole benefit. However, it is totally erroneous to blame a church for setting up rules. No one, zero, zip. personne, has to follow the rules. If they do follow the rules, it is their choice and they bear the consequences of their actions.

It has nothing to do with exclusion!

[Bob Oliverio]

You really think there is a comparison between the two things? I am sorry, but there are only two people this father should talk to and that is their children that chose to marry in the temple. It has nothing to do with the Church and everything to do with the choice of a couple seeking to be married for all time and eternity. You want to enter the temple there is a clear path to doing so. If you don't want to enter the temple the choice is yours. If the couple wants their parents to see a ceremony, then do one outside the temple for their sole benefit. However, it is totally erroneous to blame a church for setting up rules. No one, zero, zip. personne, has to follow the rules. If they do follow the rules, it is their choice and they bear the consequences of their actions.

It has nothing to do with exclusion!

Many, both inside the Church and non members, would disagree with you of course.  But it's probably not the thread to debate the issue.

[Pahoran]

Exactly! Jackie Robinson wasn't judged "worthy" enough to be admitted to the highest level of what he pursued merely because of the color of his skin. The arrogance and bigotry of such organizations!

Good thing we can see it so clearly - NOW!

But at least Robinson, and the equality he stood for, have both received apologies over the years for the obvious bigotry and discrimination from MOST organizations and people who treated him wrongly.

Still sawing away at that one-string fiddle, I see.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

Unusual post-script encounter to this story. Wife and I went to a weekend picnic/BBQ out in Stone Mountain yesterday w friends, some from church and others who are no longer members. Kind of a mixed group of young, older, professional, believing and those on to different ways. We had a beautiful space for activities but not enough for softball until one guy introduced a one of those old tether balls and a small bat to play a game. Was fun and reduced space needs.

This article came up after the game and I was surprised how many had even heard of it. It's interesting for me as a new member to watch and listen from those still active and those who are on to different things.

It really was a fun outing and fun way to play softball - all had a blast. But when the subject was brought up for discussion, and in a most compassionate way by a long time active member who was obviously disturbed by the exclusion of the LDS teams, another member (not sure if he was active or not) simply responded: "exactly how I felt being exclude from seeing my daughter being married in the Mesa temple"! Could have heard a pin drop in a group that was having such a great time up until then. We didn't know this gentleman, but he seemed so nice and gracious the entire day up until that sudden moment.

Kind of puts the meaning of "exclusion" in real context.

Tell us, Bob: do you only participate in threads so that you can harp on your usual themes?

I don't know what (if anything) you really believe on any subject. (I still don't know whether your "new convert with a couple of little questions" persona isn't just a convenient cover story.) But the Latter-day Saints believe that the ordinances of the Temple are of surpassing importance, not only in this life, but in eternity. As such, they outweigh any social or conventional considerations.

Regards,

Pahoran

Edited May 28, 2012 by Pahoran

[KevinG]

Oh yippee another "the mean Mormons kept me from my children's wedding because I drank a little iced tea" thread.