Celestial Kingdom Questions

[Law22]

1. Does the LDS church teach that women cannot get into the Celestial Kingdom without their husband's approval, and that if the husband approves the wife becomes a Goddess, but if the husband does not approve she becomes a servant?

2. Does the church teach that unmarried men and women will go to a different Kingdom or otherwise lead a lower existence in Heaven?

3. Does the church teach that unmarried men will be provided the opportunity to take a wife after they die in order to get into the Celestial Kingdom, however, unmarried women will not similarly be offered a husband?

4. Many past leaders of the LDS church have said that Joseph Smith will stand at the gates of the Celestial Kingdom and one can only gain entry with his approval. I understand that some LDS faithful consider this to be strictly the opinion of past leaders, and not doctrine, but weren't these opinions based in LDS scripture?

5. Is there any support for these concepts in the Bible, or are they strictly D&C, WoW, or PoGP?

6. Is this too many questions for one thread?

[Log]

1. Does the LDS church teach that women cannot get into the Celestial Kingdom without their husband's approval, and that if the husband approves the wife becomes a Goddess, but if the husband does not approve she becomes a servant?

No no no. She doesn't get resurrected without his approval. If the husband doesn't approve, she becomes a zombie.

That was a joke.

Serious answer: NO.

2. Does the church teach that unmarried men and women will go to a different Kingdom or otherwise lead a lower existence in Heaven?

Yes.

3. Does the church teach that unmarried men will be provided the opportunity to take a wife after they die in order to get into the Celestial Kingdom, however, unmarried women will not similarly be offered a husband?

No.

4. Many past leaders of the LDS church have said that Joseph Smith will stand at the gates of the Celestial Kingdom and one can only gain entry with his approval. I understand that some LDS faithful consider this to be strictly the opinion of past leaders, and not doctrine, but weren't these opinions based in LDS scripture?

If you could point out the scripture these opinions were based on, then we could tell you if those opinions were based on scripture.

5. Is there any support for these concepts in the Bible, or are they strictly D&C, WoW, or PoGP?

I'm not quite sure where any of this is in the scriptures, except the one.

6. Is this too many questions for one thread?

Nope!

Edited May 21, 2012 by Log

[Calm]

1. Does the LDS church teach that women cannot get into the Celestial Kingdom without their husband's approval, and that if the husband approves the wife becomes a Goddess, but if the husband does not approve she becomes a servant?

Both enter the CK together, the husband is not without the wife, nor the wife without the husband. Eternal marriage leads to a oneness.

2. Does the church teach that unmarried men and women will go to a different Kingdom or otherwise lead a lower existence in Heaven?

Those who not desired to be married will be given other work to do.

3. Does the church teach that unmarried men will be provided the opportunity to take a wife after they die in order to get into the Celestial Kingdom, however, unmarried women will not similarly be offered a husband?

If someone has not had the chance to get married and desires it, they will be able to participate in such whether man or woman.

4. Many past leaders of the LDS church have said that Joseph Smith will stand at the gates of the Celestial Kingdom and one can only gain entry with his approval. I understand that some LDS faithful consider this to be strictly the opinion of past leaders, and not doctrine, but weren't these opinions based in LDS scripture?

In the same sense that the twelve disciples were also told they would be judges of Isreal.

5. Is there any support for these concepts in the Bible, or are they strictly D&C, WoW, or PoGP?

Teachings that husband and wife are one before the Lord, teachings that God grants the righteous desires of his children teachings about the twelve being judges of Isreal (I think that last is also in the Bible, but I may be wrong.)

6. Is this too many questions for one thread?

[CASteinman]

1. Does the LDS church teach that women cannot get into the Celestial Kingdom without their husband's approval, and that if the husband approves the wife becomes a Goddess, but if the husband does not approve she becomes a servant?

No.

2. Does the church teach that unmarried men and women will go to a different Kingdom or otherwise lead a lower existence in Heaven?

Yes and No.

3. Does the church teach that unmarried men will be provided the opportunity to take a wife after they die in order to get into the Celestial Kingdom, however, unmarried women will not similarly be offered a husband?

No.

4. Many past leaders of the LDS church have said that Joseph Smith will stand at the gates of the Celestial Kingdom and one can only gain entry with his approval. I understand that some LDS faithful consider this to be strictly the opinion of past leaders, and not doctrine, but weren't these opinions based in LDS scripture?

No.

5. Is there any support for these concepts in the Bible, or are they strictly D&C, WoW, or PoGP?

Yes.

6. Is this too many questions for one thread?

Yes.

[Freedom]

The answer to all these question is found in the bible. Eve is a help meet. That is, she is equal to Adam. Men and women have different roles but they are equal in the eyes of God.

[Tarski]

The answer to all these question is found in the bible. Eve is a help meet. That is, she is equal to Adam. Men and women have different roles but they are equal in the eyes of God.

LOL

If that is equality then why does it sound weird to say that Adam is a help meet. That is, he is equal to Eve.

[Storm Rider]

1. Does the LDS church teach that women cannot get into the Celestial Kingdom without their husband's approval, and that if the husband approves the wife becomes a Goddess, but if the husband does not approve she becomes a servant?

2. Does the church teach that unmarried men and women will go to a different Kingdom or otherwise lead a lower existence in Heaven?

3. Does the church teach that unmarried men will be provided the opportunity to take a wife after they die in order to get into the Celestial Kingdom, however, unmarried women will not similarly be offered a husband?

4. Many past leaders of the LDS church have said that Joseph Smith will stand at the gates of the Celestial Kingdom and one can only gain entry with his approval. I understand that some LDS faithful consider this to be strictly the opinion of past leaders, and not doctrine, but weren't these opinions based in LDS scripture?

5. Is there any support for these concepts in the Bible, or are they strictly D&C, WoW, or PoGP?

6. Is this too many questions for one thread?

My, my, my, we have been passing our time on anti-Mormon websites of late. Every human that has ever lived will have the opportunity to enter into the Celestial Kingdom; E-V-E-R-Y P-E-R-S-O-N; that means that no one will be left out from having the opportunity to have all of their ordinances performed, being sealed to the human family, etc. Joseph Smith is not the judge of humanity, that belongs to Christ.

There is a body of thought that states that those who were the primary prophet of a dispensation also serve as a judge of that dispensation, but that is speculation. However, THE judge is Jesus Christ.

The Church does not teach any of what you have proposed above.

[Freedom]

LOL

If that is equality then why does it sound weird to say that Adam is a help meet. That is, he is equal to Eve.

I don't know, you tell me. It doesn't sound weird to me. A help meet is an equal partner. The author of Genesis is trying to break cultural stereotypes by teaching that women are not slaves or property. They are equal to men.

[Darren10]

Tarski;

Forgive me in that my IPad doesn't seem to pop up the triting tools allowed for making a post so instead of the nice and neat block quotes I normally use, this'll be posted old school. Yes, with quotations and commas. Also, I cannot seem to highlight anything on this page so I cannot even cut and paste your question.

You asked why (would) it seem strange to call Adam Eve's "help meet"? My first desire was to present a good meaning of that martial title. I found the following, "The Hebrew meaning of the phrase "help meet" in the Word of God is simply "one who helps."  The Bible teaches that it is the wife's duty to HELP her husband." This is from www.jesus-is-savior.com/Family/Marriage/help-meet?html (I had to type that all out and by flipping keyboard screens on the IPad).

So, with that meaning established, why,exactly, is would it sound weird top.ace a marital title upon Adam denoting his responsibility before God to help his wife? This question is especially poignant in LDS thought as its leaders have always taught for a husband to serve his wife.

[Law22]

My, my, my, we have been passing our time on anti-Mormon websites of late. Every human that has ever lived will have the opportunity to enter into the Celestial Kingdom; E-V-E-R-Y P-E-R-S-O-N; that means that no one will be left out from having the opportunity to have all of their ordinances performed, being sealed to the human family, etc. Joseph Smith is not the judge of humanity, that belongs to Christ.

There is a body of thought that states that those who were the primary prophet of a dispensation also serve as a judge of that dispensation, but that is speculation. However, THE judge is Jesus Christ.

The Church does not teach any of what you have proposed above.

My, my, my, you've managed to condescend to me and at the same time avoid answering most of my questions. Nice.

[Storm Rider]

Which question was not answered? How do you interpert the last statement, "THE CHURCH DOES NOT TEACH ANY OF WHAT YOU HAVE PROPOSED ABOVE." Seems crystal clear to me; not you?

Condescend? No, that was not my intent, but I suspect your comment had been different if it was not accurate. It matters little where you got your material; it does matter what your motivation was for asking them. You have been answered. Do you have anything else to ask?

[Law22]

Which question was not answered?

4 and 5.

Condescend? No, that was not my intent,

Sure it was.

but I suspect your comment had been different if it was not accurate. It matters little where you got your material; it does matter what your motivation was for asking them.

Got me all figured out huh? Did you notice that several others were able to politely answer my questions without being rude and defensive and insistent that my motives were anything but purely academic? Does that mean anything to you?

You have been answered. Do you have anything else to ask?

Of you? No.

[Storm Rider]

Sweet! Next please; this one has all the enjoyment of eating strawberries in an outhouse.

[bluebell]

Tarski;

Forgive me in that my IPad doesn't seem to pop up the triting tools allowed for making a post so instead of the nice and neat block quotes I normally use, this'll be posted old school. Yes, with quotations and commas. Also, I cannot seem to highlight anything on this page so I cannot even cut and paste your question.

You asked why (would) it seem strange to call Adam Eve's "help meet"? My first desire was to present a good meaning of that martial title. I found the following, "The Hebrew meaning of the phrase "help meet" in the Word of God is simply "one who helps." The Bible teaches that it is the wife's duty to HELP her husband." This is from www.jesus-is-savior.com/Family/Marriage/help-meet?html (I had to type that all out and by flipping keyboard screens on the IPad).

I prefer a more nuanced definition that I found many years ago in the book "Eve and the Choice made in Eden" by Beverly Campbell.

In it she quotes David Freedman (who, according to her, is a bible scholar) who says:

"the Hebrew world translated [in Gen. 2:18 as] as 'help' is ezer. This word is a combination of two roots, one meaning 'to rescue,' 'to save,' and the other meaning 'to be strong....' In contrast, k'enegdo, another Hebrew word used in Gen. 2:18 to describe Eve...means 'equal'. When God creates Eve..., His intent is that she will be--unlike the animals--'a power (or strength) equal to [Adam]."

Not being a bible scholar myself i can't speak to how accurate his interpretations are, but it's a reminder that the words we have in the English bible might not always convey the proper idea being taught.

[CASteinman]

Not being a bible scholar myself i can't speak to how accurate his interpretations are, but it's a reminder that the words we have in the English bible might not always convey the proper idea being taught.

I agree. In fact, I am not sure that even reading the Hebrew, we really know what was originally said or intended, but it is what we have to go on. For the Old Testament, I always prefer to find out how the Scribes and Rabbis translated the words in the Septuagint. To me, it says what postexilic but "pre"-diaspora Jews considered the word to mean -- a period very long ago and closer to the time of the probable redaction.

I am also very suspicious of modern revisions on definitions.

In this case, the word ezer is translated boethos which means "a helper" and has the sense of a person who comes running to help you when you need it or in emergency. (which may be too much detail)

[CV75]

I don't know, you tell me. It doesn't sound weird to me. A help meet is an equal partner. The author of Genesis is trying to break cultural stereotypes by teaching that women are not slaves or property. They are equal to men.

I also think it was because Adam was here first, and his recognized need for help was provided for in the subsequent arrival of Eve.

[Freedom]

Which question was not answered?

4 and 5.

Here is the quote that is often used:

Journal of Discourses: Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days...no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.... I will now tell you something that ought to comfort every man and woman on the face of the earth. Joseph Smith, junior, will again be on this earth dictating plans and calling forth his brethren to be baptized for the very characters who wish this was not so, in order to bring them into a kingdom to enjoy...he will never cease his operations, under the directions of the Son of God, until the last ones of the children of men are saved that can be, from Adam till now.... It is his mission to see that all the children of men in this last dispensation are saved, that can be, through the redemption.

We read the following in the New Testament:

Luke 22:28-30 Ye [the apostles] are they which have continued with me in my temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel

First of all, the Journal of Discourses is not an official source of doctrine, nor is it a reliable source of what past leaders may have said. Many talks were recorded in short hand and sent to the publisher in England where they were 'translated' back into regular English and printed without the authorization of the speaker. As you can imagine, countless errors could be made.

Nevertheless, the concept being taught is that Joseph is responsible for this dispensation under the direction of God. Abraham is responsible for his, Moses for his and so forth. Jesus taught that his 12 apostles will also act as judges. Nevertheless, Jesus is the final judge. Jesus delegates his duties to worthy servants to train and teach them. It is LDS doctrine that the noble and great ones participated in the creation of this earth; Jesus is the creator, under the direction of the Father, but he engaged the worthy spirits to assist. To me, it demonstrates Gods great love for and trust in his children.

[altersteve]

1. Does the LDS church teach that women cannot get into the Celestial Kingdom without their husband's approval, and that if the husband approves the wife becomes a Goddess, but if the husband does not approve she becomes a servant?

No. This is completely absurd and I'm interested to know why anyone would think otherwise.

2. Does the church teach that unmarried men and women will go to a different Kingdom or otherwise lead a lower existence in Heaven?

We don't phrase it that way, but yes, those who choose not to be sealed to a spouse will not be exalted, since exaltation is a family matter.

3. Does the church teach that unmarried men will be provided the opportunity to take a wife after they die in order to get into the Celestial Kingdom, however, unmarried women will not similarly be offered a husband?

No. Any person, regardless of gender, who was not given a chance to be sealed to a spouse will be given that opportunity someday.

4. Many past leaders of the LDS church have said that Joseph Smith will stand at the gates of the Celestial Kingdom and one can only gain entry with his approval. I understand that some LDS faithful consider this to be strictly the opinion of past leaders, and not doctrine, but weren't these opinions based in LDS scripture?

In context, no Church leader has ever said that Joseph Smith will be the person who approves each person's entry into God's kingdom. What was taught was that Joseph holds the keys to this dispensation, and it is clear from what Brigham Young said that neither he nor anyone else will do anything that is not under Jesus Christ's direction.

5. Is there any support for these concepts in the Bible, or are they strictly D&C, WoW, or PoGP?

There is no support for these concepts in any of the Standard Works, because they're not true.

[cdowis]

5. Is there any support for these concepts in the Bible, or are they strictly D&C, WoW, or PoGP?

There is no support for these concepts in any of the Standard Works, because they're not true.

I understand. " I have not heard of this, therefore it is not true."

Please read:

Matt 19:28 b, 1 Cor 6:2

I have heard of it. Joseph Smith has the keys of this dispensation and no one will enter the Celestial Kingdom without his approval because he is responsible (the keeper) for the records of this dispensation.

Matt 16 [19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven (recorded in the church records): and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Edited May 21, 2012 by cdowis

[cinepro]

The Church does not teach any of what you have proposed above.

As Log correctly noted, the answer to #2 is "Yes."

Perhaps it needs to be noted that everyone will "have the chance to be married", but ultimately they must be married if they want to be in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom.

Edited May 21, 2012 by cinepro

[altersteve]

I understand. " I have not heard of this, therefore it is not true."

Please read:

Matt 19:28 b, 1 Cor 6:2

I have heard of it. Joseph Smith has the keys of this dispensation and no one will enter the Celestial Kingdom without his approval because he is responsible (the keeper) for the records of this dispensation.

Matt 16 [19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I agree with what these verses say. What I meant was that there is no scriptural support for what Law22 seemed (to me) to be implying: that we believe Joseph Smith, and not Jesus Christ, will be the judge.

Sorry for the confusion.

Edited May 21, 2012 by altersteve

[cdowis]

I agree with what these verses say. What I meant was that there is no scriptural support for what Law22 seemed (to me) to be implying: that we believe Joseph Smith, and not Jesus Christ, will be the judge.

No problem.

This antimormon technique is a deliberate deception, such as "The Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers." It is a cleverly worded statement that is both true and false. Satan is very clever at such things-- turning evil into good, and good into evil, turning a lie into a true statement.

The response is:

How can Christ be the judge of all mankind, when he authorized the twelve to judge the entire House of Israel.

Edited May 21, 2012 by cdowis

[Darren10]

Bluebell #14;

Very nice post, sir. Thank you.

[bluebell]

Bluebell #14;

Very nice post, sir. Thank you.

That's 'ma'am' to you pal!

[zerinus]

1. Does the LDS church teach that women cannot get into the Celestial Kingdom without their husband's approval, and that if the husband approves the wife becomes a Goddess, but if the husband does not approve she becomes a servant?

No.

2. Does the church teach that unmarried men and women will go to a different Kingdom or otherwise lead a lower existence in Heaven?

No.

3. Does the church teach that unmarried men will be provided the opportunity to take a wife after they die in order to get into the Celestial Kingdom, however, unmarried women will not similarly be offered a husband?

No.

4. Many past leaders of the LDS church have said that Joseph Smith will stand at the gates of the Celestial Kingdom and one can only gain entry with his approval. I understand that some LDS faithful consider this to be strictly the opinion of past leaders, and not doctrine, but weren't these opinions based in LDS scripture?

That probably comes from an interpretation of the following scriptures:

Matthew 19:

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:

30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

1 Corinthians 6:

3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life

1 Nephi 12:

9 And he said unto me: Thou rememberest the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb? Behold they are they who shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, the twelve ministers of thy seed shall be judged of them; for ye are of the house of Israel.

10 And these twelve ministers whom thou beholdest shall judge thy seed. And, behold, they are righteous forever; for because of their faith in the Lamb of God their garments are made white in his blood.

3 Nephi 27:

27 And know ye that ye shall be judges of this people, according to the judgment which I shall give unto you, which shall be just. Therefore, what manner of men ought ye to be? Verily I say unto you, even as I am.

D&C 75:

21 And you shall be filled with joy and gladness; and know this, that in the day of judgment you shall be judges of that house, and condemn them;

(And several more such scriptures that could be quoted.) According to theses verses, all the prophets, Apostles, and saints who have ever lived will be given some kind of “judging” role in the day of judgement—Joseph Smith included. But the judgement they will give will be the Lord’s judgement, not their own.

5. Is there any support for these concepts in the Bible, or are they strictly D&C, WoW, or PoGP?

See above.

6. Is this too many questions for one thread?

No.