Celestial Kingdom Questions

[altersteve]

It's hard to tell from the first epistle to the Corinthians whether or not Paul was married, as there seems to be some conflicting information. Some of Paul's other writings, as well as various extra-biblical sources, seem to indicate that Paul had a wife. Once again, Aliwe, please see: http://en.fairmormon.org/Marriage/As_a_requirement_for_exaltation/Paul_said_it_is_good_not_to_marry

[Aliwe]

On to the epistle. I am not sure why you quoted it. It says nothing about not being married after death.

As I am given to understand LDS theology, the Celestial Kingdom is reserved only for those who are married in a temple. And so we have Paul giving advice that, if followed, will deny his listeners the highest station in the afterlife.

[altersteve]

As I am given to understand LDS theology, the Celestial Kingdom is reserved only for those who are married in a temple. And so we have Paul giving advice that, if followed, will deny his listeners the highest station in the afterlife.

That's not true. Only exaltation is "reserved" for married couples and families. But you don't have to be married in order to enter the celestial kingdom.

[Aliwe]

That's not true. Only exaltation is "reserved" for married couples and families. But you don't have to be married in order to enter the celestial kingdom.

Thank you for the correction. But in any event, you have Paul recommending that folks become underachievers and bypass the pressure of going for exaltation...IF modern LDS theology was taught by the First Century Church.

[zerinus]

Matt.22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Mark.12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Luke.20:34-35 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage

1 Cor. 7:8-9 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

According to D&C 132:15-17, that applies to those who had the chance, and wilfully chose to disregard it in this life, with knowledge of the consequences.

Jesus didn't seem to put great stock in the importance of being married to further one's career in his father's kingdom. In fact, he once said (Matthew 19:12) "For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

He was referring to those who had a special mission to perform (such as Himself), which necessitated them to remain celibate during their missions. When our missionaries go on missions, they are expected to remain celibate; when they return, they get married.

Really? Second time today. I thought LDSes had bibles.

1Cor.7:1-2 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

1 Cor:7:7-9 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Paul was also referring to those who had special missions to perform. JST 1 Cor 7 clarifies: "29. But I speak unto you who are called unto the ministry. For this I say, brethren, the time that remaineth is but short, that ye shall be sent forth unto the ministry. Even they who have wives, shall be as though they had none; for ye are called and chosen to do the Lord's work." Paul was probably married, but chose to remain celibate after he was called to fulfil his mission. Other Apostles apparently didn't; and Paul appeared to have been critical of their actions! "Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas" (1 Corinthians 9:5). So Paul appeared to have been a bit overzealous in his ministry, which the other Apostles didn't share.

[Aliwe]

Paul was also referring to those who had special missions to perform. JST 1 Cor 7 clarifies: "29. But I speak unto you who are called unto the ministry. For this I say, brethren, the time that remaineth is but short, that ye shall be sent forth unto the ministry. Even they who have wives, shall be as though they had none; for ye are called and chosen to do the Lord's work."

Thank you zerinus, that is a well-reasoned answer, but I read that the CoJCoLDS did not canonize the JST except for the parts that appear in the Quad, probably because it does not conform with the original Hebrew and Greek source material. And so when you say Paul qualified his advice to remain celibate to those who were in the ministry, this appears to be an invention of men.

[Calm]

probably because it does not conform with the original Hebrew and Greek source material

Not so. First, the Church was not in possession of the actual manuscript and did not have access to it until the 60s IIRC. Second, it appears to have been a work in progress and as such it is hard to tell what JS was satisfied with and what he wanted to work on more.

[TAO]

Thank you zerinus, that is a well-reasoned answer, but I read that the CoJCoLDS did not canonize the JST except for the parts that appear in the Quad, probably because it does not conform with the original Hebrew and Greek source material. And so when you say Paul qualified his advice to remain celibate to those who were in the ministry, this appears to be an invention of men.

1 Corinthians 7:6-9

6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.

7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.

9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

He is correct; it is not a commandment of the Lord, rather it is Paul's opinion.

The idea of marriage lasting beyond death is supported in several places in the scriptures.

Ecclesiastes 3:14

I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

...and again in Matthew 16:19

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

How do we know that mairrages can fit under this category of things not destroyed under death? Mark 10:5-9 helps:

5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

... and so does 1 Corinthian 11:11-12

11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

And of course, if you are LDS, there are a ton of references in The Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants.

I would also suggest you talk to volgadon, who knows a ton on early Christian and Jewish thought. I remember some things he posted a while ago which related to ancient Jewish thought on the issue bordering the LDS views on marriage after life far more closely than the orthodox Christian views.

In any case, the reference in our Bible for Matthew 22:30 links to D&C 132:16 which seems to imply they didn't properly enter in a covenant that is needed for eternal marriage.

Furthermore, who is 'they' referring to? I am guessing it is referring to the other brothers, and not the first husband and wife. Then again, I don't know Hebrew or Greek, so I can't verify.

Edited June 22, 2012 by TAO

[zerinus]

Thank you zerinus, that is a well-reasoned answer, but I read that the CoJCoLDS did not canonize the JST except for the parts that appear in the Quad, probably because it does not conform with the original Hebrew and Greek source material. And so when you say Paul qualified his advice to remain celibate to those who were in the ministry, this appears to be an invention of men.

No part of the JST is canonized at the present time; but the fact that it has been approved for inclusion in the footnotes to the LDS standard works means that the leadership of the Church consider it to be authentic and inspired. The reason why some parts have been included and some haven't been has nothing to do with the original Greek and Hebrew sources. The reason is simply that most of the changes Joseph made were not doctrinally significant; therefore including them would have occupied space without clarifying the meaning of the KJV text, which is what the footnotes are intended to do.

Second, it appears to have been a work in progress and as such it is hard to tell what JS was satisfied with and what he wanted to work on more.

According to Church history, Joseph Smith was satisfied enough with the work done on the JST that he intended its publication; but other factors prevented him from doing so.

Edited June 22, 2012 by zerinus

[Aliwe]

No part of the JST is canonized at the present time; but the fact that it has been approved for inclusion in the footnotes to the LDS standard works means that the leadership of the Church consider it to be authentic and inspired.

I think parts of it are included in PoGP and that is canonized.

[volgadon]

I think parts of it are included in PoGP and that is canonized.

You are right, the Book of Moses and JST Matthew 24.

[zerinus]

I think parts of it are included in PoGP and that is canonized.

I meant excluding the PoGP.

[Aliwe]

How do we know that mairrages can fit under this category of things not destroyed under death? Mark 10:5-9 helps:

Well, you go ahead, knock yourself out with your post-mortem marriage to your human spouse, as for me, I will content myself in my part of the spiritual bride of Jesus Christ.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

[volgadon]

Well, you go ahead, knock yourself out with your post-mortem marriage to your human spouse, as for me, I will content myself in my part of the spiritual bride of Jesus Christ.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

One does not exclude the other.

[TAO]

Well, you go ahead, knock yourself out with your post-mortem marriage to your human spouse, as for me, I will content myself in my part of the spiritual bride of Jesus Christ.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Thanks, I will knock myself out in both marriage and in service to God. For that is my duty to him.

Edited June 22, 2012 by TAO

[altersteve]

Thank you for the correction. But in any event, you have Paul recommending that folks become underachievers and bypass the pressure of going for exaltation...IF modern LDS theology was taught by the First Century Church.

For the third time, please see the link I provided earlier. Paul recommended no such thing.

[zerinus]

How do we know that mairrages can fit under this category of things not destroyed under death? Mark 10:5-9 helps:

5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Thank you TAO. Also, Adam and Eve were immortal when God married them in the Garden of Eden. That means that their marriage was an eternal marriage, not a temporary one. It is true that death came into the world as a consequence of the Fall; but the effect of the Atonement was to undo the effect of the Fall, and restore Adam and Eve (and mankind) to their former immortal state; with the implication that their marriage should also be restored to its former eternal condition. It doesn't make sense that they should become immortal again, but not immortally married as they had been before.

[zerinus]

Well, you go ahead, knock yourself out with your post-mortem marriage to your human spouse, as for me, I will content myself in my part of the spiritual bride of Jesus Christ.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

The Church as a whole is the spiritual bride of Christ. That is not a substitute for the personal marriages of individual Christians. There is nothing in the Bible that says that.

[Aliwe]

Thank you TAO. Also, Adam and Eve were immortal when God married them in the Garden of Eden. That means that their marriage was an eternal marriage, not a temporary one. It is true that death came into the world as a consequence of the Fall; but the effect of the Atonement was to undo the effect of the Fall, and restore Adam and Eve (and mankind) to their former immortal state; with the implication that their marriage should also be restored to its former eternal condition. It doesn't make sense that they should become immortal again, but not immortally married as they had been before.

Adam and Eve were NOT immortal when they were in the Garden. That is precisely why God said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever..." and he expelled them from the Garden and set guard over the Tree of Life. But many people have been taught that Adam and Eve were immortal as a tradition, and they believe it without question, never once examining the scriptures for themselves.

[altersteve]

Adam and Eve were NOT immortal when they were in the Garden. That is precisely why God said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever..." and he expelled them from the Garden and set guard over the Tree of Life. But many people have been taught that Adam and Eve were immortal as a tradition, and they believe it without question, never once examining the scriptures for themselves.

You need to understand that Latter-day Saints do examine the scriptures for themselves -- but "the scriptures" includes more than just the Bible. We believe modern scripture greatly clarifies and expounds upon what the Bible says.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Adam and Eve were NOT immortal when they were in the Garden. That is precisely why God said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever..." and he expelled them from the Garden and set guard over the Tree of Life. But many people have been taught that Adam and Eve were immortal as a tradition, and they believe it without question, never once examining the scriptures for themselves.

Actually what happened was "God said that if they partook of the fruit that in the day thereof they should surely die." So logic concludes that if they had not partaken of the fruit that they would not have died in any sense of the word. I am sorry but your assertion that Adam and Eve were not immortal in the Garden is not backed by scripture. So no that is not precisely why God said" Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever..." He said that after they had partaken of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

[Vance]

Adam and Eve were NOT immortal when they were in the Garden.

If death is the punishment for sin, then how could they be any thing other than immortal BEFORE sin entered the world?

[Aliwe]

If death is the punishment for sin, then how could they be any thing other than immortal BEFORE sin entered the world?

If sin never entered the world, they would have lived in the Garden and been allowed to eat of the Tree of Life to become immortal. But they failed the test of obedience, and God cut them off from the Tree of Life before they could eat, so that they would not lock in their sin with infinitely extended lives, becoming, in effect, fallen angels. This was not made clear to me until I read Professor Harold Bloom's work "The Book of J" extracting the Yawhist text from the Bible, but now that I see it, it's right there in plain sight and it would have bit me on the nose if I hadn't been immersed in Christian traditions. After that, I've tried to read the scriptures much more carefully, and I question all such assumptions that fly in the face of the plain meaning of the text.

[Aliwe]

You need to understand that Latter-day Saints do examine the scriptures for themselves -- but "the scriptures" includes more than just the Bible. We believe modern scripture greatly clarifies and expounds upon what the Bible says.

I do understand that, and I'm not focused on questioning the validity of LDS scripture, unless there are contradictions between canonized texts (BoM and KJV), or within any one text.

[zerinus]

Adam and Eve were NOT immortal when they were in the Garden. That is precisely why God said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever..." and he expelled them from the Garden and set guard over the Tree of Life. But many people have been taught that Adam and Eve were immortal as a tradition, and they believe it without question, never once examining the scriptures for themselves.

Sorry, but you do have some crazy ideas. Adam and eve were immortal before the Fall. The scriptures are too many to quote.