DWhitmer Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 This is not a trap. What are the LDS views of the Rapture, including official statements, historical statements G.A., any LDS professor, books published by Deseret, etc.
mercyngrace Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 That it's utter nonsense?If the 10th article of faith is accurate, God is coming here and this earth will be the celestial kingdom. He won't be taking the righteous away to start a new heaven elsewhere.
inquiringmind Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) This is not a trap. What are the LDS views of the Rapture, including official statements, historical statements G.A., any LDS professor, books published by Deseret, etc.From what I understand, the LDS believe in the same post tribulation rapture that all non-dispensationalist, historical pre-millennialists believe in (in other words, the saints who are alive at the end of the tribulation are changed and join the resurrected saints to meet Christ and return to the mount of Olives with Him.) Edited May 9, 2012 by inquiringmind 1
mfbukowski Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) We believe the Bible insofar as it is translated correctly.What- you can't look this stuff up yourself?http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Rapture_and_LDS_theology Edited May 9, 2012 by mfbukowski
The Nehor Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 This is not a trap. What are the LDS views of the Rapture, including official statements, historical statements G.A., any LDS professor, books published by Deseret, etc.We don't have a view on the rapture. The closest analog is the people being taken up to the air to meet Christ and the City of Enoch and the other righteous at his coming. We don't call it a rapture. The rapture is a mostly 18th century creation and we don't care about it. We also don't believe in the Seven-Year Tribulation, Nicolae Carpathia, or that the UN is part of Satan's plan to form a One World Government.Oh, and it is a trap. 3
inquiringmind Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) The closest analog is the people being taken up to the air to meet ChristOn His way back to earth, after the tribulation, right?That is the post tribulation rapture of historical pre-millennialists (which can be found in the writings of some of the earliest Church Fathers--not to be confused with the pre-tribulation rapture of modern dispensationalists.)If LDS believe that the living will be changed "in the twinkling of an eye," and "caught up together" with newly resurrected saints to return as a group with Christ, that's what everyone else calls a post trib rapture.This is called "historical premillennialsm" because it was a view held by Ireneaus, Justin Martyr, Hippolytus, and all premillennialists prior to Charles Darby.(And I don't see any trap here.)DWhitmer:A simple, direct answer to your question (in the language used by Protestant and Catholic Theologians worldwide) is that the LDS believe in a post-trib rapture (and I'm certain you can find passages in the Doctrine and Covenants that will confirm that.) Edited May 9, 2012 by inquiringmind 1
cinepro Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 This is not a trap. What are the LDS views of the Rapture, including official statements, historical statements G.A., any LDS professor, books published by Deseret, etc.If this is the Rapture:The rapture is a reference to the "being caught up" referred to in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, when the "dead in Christ" and "we who are alive and remain" will be caught up in the clouds to meet "the Lord".[1] The term "rapture" is used in at least two senses in modern traditions of Christian eschatology; in pre-tribulationist views, in which a group of people will be "left behind", and as a synonym for the final resurrection generally.Then yes, LDS believe in the Rapture as far as the first sentence is concerned. Only we don't talk about it, and we don't call it that.
Calm Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 What LDS believe about the second coming of Christ: http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-44-the-second-coming-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng
DWhitmer Posted May 9, 2012 Author Posted May 9, 2012 That it's utter nonsense? If the 10th article of faith is accurate, God is coming here and this earth will be the celestial kingdom. He won't be taking the righteous away to start a new heaven elsewhere.When will the earth be celestialized? Not during the Millennium. How is the Millennium referred? A New Heaven and a New Earth.From what I understand, the LDS believe in the same post tribulation rapture that all non-dispensationalist, historical pre-millennialists believe in (in other words, the saints who are alive at the end of the tribulation are changed and join the resurrected saints to meet Christ and return to the mount of Olives with Him.)Are you saying LDS do believe in the rapture, but not until after the tribulation? What is the tribulation?What- you can't look this stuff up yourself? http://en.fairmormon...nd_LDS_theologyEven if it were to show up on a search engine some day, the article presents personal views and not those of the Mormons.We don't have a view on the rapture. The closest analog is the people being taken up to the air to meet Christ and the City of Enoch and the other righteous at his coming. What's the point, if what you say is true, to being "taken up in the air"?If LDS believe that the living will be changed "in the twinkling of an eye," and "caught up together" with newly resurrected saints to return as a group with Christ, that's what everyone else calls a post trib rapture.A simple, direct answer to your question (in the language used by Protestant and Catholic Theologians worldwide) is that the LDS believe in a post-trib rapture (and I'm certain you can find passages in the Doctrine and Covenants that will confirm that.)What's the point of being "caught up"?If this is the Rapture:Then yes, LDS believe in the Rapture as far as the first sentence is concerned. Only we don't talk about it, and we don't call it that.If you believe in it, why wouldn't you speak of it? I'm confused?? (No offense.)What LDS believe about the second coming of Christ: http://www.lds.org/m...christ?lang=engI did not say the Second Coming of Christ, only LDS view of the rapture.
mercyngrace Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) He won't be taking the righteous away to start a new heaven elsewhere.When will the earth be celestialized? Not during the Millennium. How is the Millennium referred? A New Heaven and a New Earth.You left out a significant word in your reply. Edited May 9, 2012 by mercyngrace
DWhitmer Posted May 9, 2012 Author Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) You left out a significant word in your reply.Is there a Christian that does [believe in a new heaven "elsewhere"]? Edited May 9, 2012 by DWhitmer
mercyngrace Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) If there aren't then a lot of contemporary theologians are writing books and giving lectures for nothing.According to some of these (NT Wright comes to mind right off the bat) there was a shift in views of heaven a century or two ago. Music, imagery, and discourse since reflect that change describing a move from earth to heaven rather than the coming of heaven to earth.Not that anecdotal evidence is in any way authoritative but having spent my formative years and most of my life in the Bible belt, I know from personal experience that many Christians believe heaven is somewhere else. Edited May 9, 2012 by mercyngrace
cinepro Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 If you believe in it, why wouldn't you speak of it? I'm confused?? (No offense.)My point is that "The Rapture" is a single aspect of the second coming mentioned in the Bible (and the Doctrine and Covenants), and since LDS believe in both the Bible and the second coming of Jesus, we therefore "believe" it. At the same time, there appears to be a flavor of Christianity that has gone in their obsession for "The Rapture", and LDS have chosen to stay on the sidelines for that particular religious hobby.
DWhitmer Posted May 9, 2012 Author Posted May 9, 2012 ...Christians believe heaven is somewhere else.Yes, but you said a "new heaven" somewhere. Christians believe the rapture takes believers to heaven, not a new one "somewhere." If you were not seeking to be flippant, my apologies.
DWhitmer Posted May 9, 2012 Author Posted May 9, 2012 My point is that "The Rapture" is a single aspect of the second coming mentioned in the Bible (and the Doctrine and Covenants), and since LDS believe in both the Bible and the second coming of Jesus, we therefore "believe" it.There are many doctrines within Mormon scripture that Mormons don't believe. I'm looking for a reference either for or against it.At the same time, there appears to be a flavor of Christianity that has gone in their obsession for "The Rapture", and LDS have chosen to stay on the sidelines for that particular religious hobby.Hobby...well.
mfbukowski Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 When will the earth be celestialized? Not during the Millennium. How is the Millennium referred? A New Heaven and a New Earth.Are you saying LDS do believe in the rapture, but not until after the tribulation? What is the tribulation?Even if it were to show up on a search engine some day, the article presents personal views and not those of the Mormons.What's the point, if what you say is true, to being "taken up in the air"?What's the point of being "caught up"?If you believe in it, why wouldn't you speak of it? I'm confused?? (No offense.)I did not say the Second Coming of Christ, only LDS view of the rapture.Yep, it was a trap.
mercyngrace Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 Yes, but you said a "new heaven" somewhere. Christians believe the rapture takes believers to heaven, not a new one "somewhere." If you were not seeking to be flippant, my apologies.Not flippant, just not that particularly invested yet in the discussion and but curious to see where you are going.Since you say "Christians believe...", are you saying LDS aren't Christians or that they aren't Christians if they do not believe in the rapture?
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 This is not a trap. What are the LDS views of the Rapture, including official statements, historical statements G.A., any LDS professor, books published by Deseret, etc.We are “post-millennium” on the topic.
DWhitmer Posted May 9, 2012 Author Posted May 9, 2012 Since you say "Christians believe...", are you saying LDS aren't Christians...If you are a "new world religion" I don't see how it could be Christian, as Christianity is already a world religion. But back to the topic, you do understand that Christians who believe in the rapture do not believe they are going to a "new heaven" somewhere. Just want to be clear you don' make that mistake elsewhere.
Freedom Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 The Rapture is non-biblical, just as 'trinity' is non-biblical. It is a doctrine that is derived from a narrow interpretation of a single verse, but is not fully justified. The LDS position is that the scriptures are not clear and it is not known how the earth will be purified and prepared for them millennial reign.I Thessalonians 4:16-17 states the following:16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of god: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. If this is to be taken literally, the worthy saints will be trapped in the lower atmosphere for all eternity. If this is how the evangelicals want to exist moving forward then good for them; I am afraid of heights and would likely catch a cold from the cold damp low in oxygen air. It states that we will be with the Lord forever, but it does not state how long we will be with him in the air. This could be read to suggest that when He arrives, we will be caught up to meet him for a moment. This event could last for a few minutes. Nor does it state that the earth will be purged during this catching up time. This is, to me, an example of the creedal christian religion creating a doctrine and then trying to justify it in the scriptures with vague references. Another close look at the verse suggests another meaning. It states that we will be caught up together them them in the clouds. Does this mean we will be caught up in the clouds, or with those that are in the clouds? That is, we will meet both the Savior, and those that are coming down with him in the clouds. This meeting could likely occur on Terra firma. Those in the clouds, (the angels arriving with the Savior) and the savior will descend from heaven and visit the saints here on the earth. I am not saying that this is how it should be interpreted, I am just pointing out that the passage is sufficiently unclear to render the doctrine of the rapture a philosophy of men mingled with scriptures. The JST states the following:'Then they who are alive, shall be caught up together into the clouds with them who remain, to meet the lord in the air; and so shall we be ever with the Lord.'So the LDS position would be that we will go up and meet him for some sort of brief meeting with no indication of any horrific events occurring on the ground.
Freedom Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 If you are a "new world religion" I don't see how it could be Christian, as Christianity is already a world religion. But back to the topic, you do understand that Christians who believe in the rapture do not believe they are going to a "new heaven" somewhere. Just want to be clear you don' make that mistake elsewhere.This would mean that evangelicals are not Christians because the catholic church was already a religion when the protestant movement began.
DWhitmer Posted May 9, 2012 Author Posted May 9, 2012 This would mean that evangelicals are not Christians because the catholic church was already a religion when the protestant movement began.Show one Evangelical who claimed to have a "new world religion"?
Freedom Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 Show one Evangelical who claimed to have a "new world religion"?All evangelicals accept the fact that the protestant movement was a new movement, breaking away from the catholic church. They also accept that Christ started a new religion breaking away from Judaism. Your reasoning is flawed.
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