Is There No Possibility Of Repentance For Ex Mormons Who Die Without Returning?

[inquiringmind]

I'm re-reading the book of Mosiah, and I really don't understand ch.2:36-39.

36 And now, I say unto you, my brethren, that after ye have known and have been taught all these things, if ye should transgress and go contrary to that which has been spoken, that ye do ^bwithdraw yourselves from the Spirit of the Lord, that it may have no place in you to guide you in wisdom’s paths that ye may be blessed, prospered, and preserved—

37 I say unto you, that the man that doeth this, the same cometh out in open ^arebellion against God; therefore he ^blisteth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness; therefore, the Lord has no place in him, for he dwelleth not in ^cunholy temples.

38 Therefore if that man ^arepenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine ^bjustice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own ^cguilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the ^dpresence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and ^epain, and ^fanguish, which is like an unquenchable ^gfire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

39 And now I say unto you, that ^amercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a never-ending ^btorment.

http://www.lds.org/s...siah/2?lang=eng

The context seems to be those who were raised in the faith, and leave, and verse 39 seems to say that their final doom is never-ending torment.

I know D&C 19 says that Eternal and Endless are God's names, but this verse doesn't use those terms.

It says "his final doom is to endure a never-ending ^btorment."

So how can apostates be saved after death, or inherit a telestial kingdom?

I know some of you will say the Nephites didn't know anything about postmortem salvation. or three degrees of glory, but I'm suppose to be praying for a testimony that the book of Mormon is true, and how can it be if it makes statements that we now know aren't true?

Edited April 20, 2012 by inquiringmind

[altersteve]

"Never-ending" in this case is, in my opinion, a metaphor, just like "eternal" and "endless." In other words, I interpret this as saying that there is no end to the amount of torment, not to the length of time that one is tormented.

Again, just my opinion, though.

[inquiringmind]

"Never-ending" in this case is, in my opinion, a metaphor, just like "eternal" and "endless." In other words, I interpret this as saying that there is no end to the amount of torment, not to the length of time that one is tormented.

Again, just my opinion, though.

Thank you.

How would you interpret "final doom"?

Edited April 19, 2012 by inquiringmind

[cinepro]

How would you interpret "final doom"?

Any way that is necessary, I expect...

[Duncan]

I don't expect apostates to return but I don't count less actives among that group

[rpn]

I think that there is no way any mortal can determine the place of those who apostasize and do not repent on earth. Yes it is possible that they have forfeited all. And it is possible that some or many of them will be redeemed anyway because they did the best they could with what they have. My take on those scriptures (others like them) is that we need to each live on the basis that this life is the time to prepare to meet God and that what we think and feel when we die will be what we think and feel after wee die. But that warning and counsel doesn't say how things turn out for everybody who doesn't honor or doesn't wholly honor the scriptural counsel.

[Pahoran]

Thank you.

How would you interpret "final doom"?

"Final Doom" is best understood when uttered against a background of a pipe organ playing a five-note chromatic scale, accompanied by maniacal laughter.

Regards,

Pahoran

[inquiringmind]

Any way that is necessary, I expect...

What does that mean?

[inquiringmind]

...My take on those scriptures (others like them) is that we need to each live on the basis that this life is the time to prepare to meet God and that what we think and feel when we die will be what we think and feel after we die. But that warning and counsel doesn't say how things turn out for everybody who doesn't honor or doesn't wholly honor the scriptural counsel.

And the book of Mormon would still be true, even if it's "warning and counsel doesn't say how things turn out for everybody who doesn't honor or doesn't wholly honor" it's counsel?

Edited April 20, 2012 by inquiringmind

[CV75]

I'm re-reading the book of Mosiah, and I really don't understand ch.2:36-39.

Some do go so far as to be an “enemy to God,” and these verses can apply to those who take this to such an extreme (both as to the knowledge of “all these things” they had and their rejection of it) as to warrant no mercy and never-ending torment. It starts somewhere, and can start with anyone at any level faith, so we need to read these words as if they are adressed to us personally.

Any of the principles in these verses can play out to small and great degrees, depending on the choices of each individual person. In some ways and to some degree we can all be enemies to God, but in other ways we are also friends to God. It is if we don’t repent (verse 38) that we can continually descend a slippery slope into the maximum darkness King Benjamin describes. His teaching applies to everyone, and everyone must assess how it relates to them.

I don’t think he is talking about others, but that he is talking to each individual personally. When we read such things, we need to apply them to our own situation, not others’. This is the truth that matters, and one way that the Book of Mormon is true (the Spirit speaks to us personally throught the words written).

[inquiringmind]

I've been told that you'd have to see God to take apostasy to the extreme you're talking about, and King Benjamin doesn't seem to be talking to those who've seen God themselves, he's talking to those who've "been taught".(verse 36.)

So is he saying that those who've been taught, had a testimony, and die in apostasy are beyond repentance?

If that's true, and John D. Lee died an unrepentant liar and murderer, why was his membership and Temple endowment restored?

Hitler may not have known anything about the restored Gospel, but I think he was raised a Christian (Catholic or Lutheran), so he would have been taught some things (i.e. the ten commandments, the golden rule, the atonement), and he certainly rejected all of it, and died unrepentant (ordering his troops to destroy everything the allies could use, even if it meant that his own people would starve.)

If there's no possibility of his repentance, why was a proxy baptism performed for him?

Edited April 20, 2012 by inquiringmind

[rodheadlee]

I'm re-reading the book of Mosiah, and I really don't understand ch.2:36-39.

http://www.lds.org/s...siah/2?lang=eng

The context seems to be those who were raised in the faith, and leave, and verse 39 seems to say that their final doom is never-ending torment.

I know D&C 19 says that Eternal and Endless are God's names, but this verse doesn't use those terms.

It says "his final doom is to endure a never-ending ^btorment."

So how can apostates be saved after death, or inherit a telestial kingdom?

I know some of you will say the Nephites didn't know anything about postmortem salvation. or three degrees of glory, but I'm suppose to be praying for a testimony that the book of Mormon is true, and how can it be if it makes statements that we now know aren't true?

To me inheriting a Telestial Kingdom would be eternal torment. Knowing that I could have inherited a Celestial Kingdom if I would have just listened to the Holy Ghost. I would be seperated from Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, my wife and my family for all eternity. How terrible!

[Maidservant]

Simply to make another point or question into the mix:

What about an "apostate" (don't use that word normally) who has a loving relationship with his wife and children and does anything for her and them etc etc etc?

What about a stake president, temple recommend holder (etc) member who beats his wife and/or children daily?

My point would be to take the knowledge in the scriptures with a 'whole' understanding and also that 'whole' understanding includes our life experiences and temple experiences. To find the whole truth in 8 sentences (which is 'proof texting', the least effective way to understand scriptures, in my opinion) . . . is not possible, as I understand, anyway.

In any case, the passage you are talking about starts out here: v 32-33

"Beware lest there shall arise contentions among you, and ye list to obey the evil spirit, which was spoken of by my father Mosiah. For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit." So as I read it, this does not have to do with belonging to the Church, per se. I'm sure the actions of a zealous "anti-mormon" could possibly be assessed as being contentious and listing to obey the evil spirit, but as CV75 said, I think . . . thankfully the only person we have to worry about is ourselves, doing what we understand to be right. And hopefully any "anti-mormon" is doing that as well and we all will be accountable for what we do.

Also the verse 33 says: "having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge". Again, we cannot tell to what degree, if any, this applies to another human being.

I do agree that these verses do speak of 'final doom' and we should accept that they say that (except in adding in our whole knowledge of scripture and truth as I mentioned above). But also note that the doom that is spoken of, is the feelings that they experience in their own soul as they realize what the truth is and what they have done and chosen (not an externally administered punishment). You can also compare this to the parable of the ten virgins. They will realize that their lamps are empty and they will not be able to receive that oil from anyone else. They will have to start from scratch. Of course, in this parable, the doors of the wedding shut on them before they could get back.

Just some thoughts. Not trying to be authoritative here . Good question.

[inquiringmind]

To find the whole truth in 8 sentences (which is 'proof texting', the least effective way to understand scriptures, in my opinion) . . . is not possible, as I understand, anyway.

I don't know how to read scripture any other way.

If the book of Mormon is true, wouldn't that mean that the words of king Benjamin (recorded in Mosiah 2) are 100% true?

[Cobalt-70]

Joseph Smith said, "God has made a provision that the spirits of our friends and every spirit in that eternal world can be ferreted out and saved, unless he has committed that unpardonable sin which can't be remitted to him, whether in this world or in the world of spirits.... All will suffer in the eternal world until they obey Christ himself and are exalted. Hence, the salvation of the Savior Jesus Christ was wrought out for all men to triumph over the works of the devil; if the plan did not catch them in one place, it would in another." (King Follett sermon)

So the answer seems to be, according to Smith's last word, that unless the ex-Mormon has committed the unpardonable sin, then he or she can (and will) eventually be exalted in the Celestial kingdom.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[DBMormon]

Just as our joy is increased by bringing others into the church (how great shall be your joy if you shall save one soul) and raising a righteous posterity, we also do a lot of harm on future generations and those within our circle of influence when we turn away from the gospel... To me it is speaking about the anguish we will subject ourselves to by not doing what we could of for the gospel's sake

[Pahoran]

I've been told that you'd have to see God to take apostasy to the extreme you're talking about, and King Benjamin doesn't seem to be talking to those who've seen God themselves, he's talking to those who've "been taught".(verse 36.)

So is he saying that those who've been taught, had a testimony, and die in apostasy are beyond repentance?

If that's true, and John D. Lee died an unrepentant liar and murderer, why was his membership and Temple endowment restored?

Because his family requested it.

Ultimate judgement is beyond human competence. We are judged (1) according to our works (2) based upon our knowledge and (3) the intents of our hearts. While everyone can observe the first point, only God truly knows the second and third. We here on this earth do the best we can and trust to the justice and mercy of the only infallible judge.

Hitler may not have known anything about the restored Gospel, but I think he was raised a Christian (Catholic or Lutheran), so he would have been taught some things (i.e. the ten commandments, the golden rule, the atonement), and he certainly rejected all of it, and died unrepentant (ordering his troops to destroy everything the allies could use, even if it meant that his own people would starve.)

If there's no possibility of his repentance, why was a proxy baptism performed for him?

Because somebody submitted his name.

I really don't know why threads discussing questions about the ultimate destiny of specific individuals keep cropping up. King Benjamin's teachings are relevant to us inasmuch as we apply them to our own lives and allow them to influence the choices we make. They were not given so that we could draw up lists of who'll be saved and who won't be. Speculation upon that subject is, IMHO, highly improper and uncharitable. After you are dead, do you want people to be sitting around discussing where you deserve to be?

Regards,

Pahoran

[inquiringmind]

Joseph Smith said, "God has made a provision that the spirits of our friends and every spirit in that eternal world can be ferreted out and saved, unless he has committed that unpardonable sin which can't be remitted to him, whether in this world or in the world of spirits.... All will suffer in the eternal world until they obey Christ himself and are exalted. Hence, the salvation of the Savior Jesus Christ was wrought out for all men to triumph over the works of the devil; if the plan did not catch them in one place, it would in another." (King Follett sermon)

So the answer seems to be, according to Smith's last word, that unless the ex-Mormon has committed the unpardonable sin, then he or she can (and will) eventually be exalted in the Celestial kingdom.

My question is whether king Benjamin's words contradict that answer.

(And I've been told that you have to see God before you can commit that sin.)

I tried to quote Mosiah 2:36-39 in full, but I see some of it was lost.

I'm interested in the words "after ye have known and been taught," "repenteth not," "dieth,"final doom," and "never ending"

Isn't king Benjamin saying that there's no repentance for those who sin against light, and die unrepentant, and doesn't that contradict what Joseph said in your quote (and what's taught in Doctrine and Covenants)?

Because somebody submitted his name.

And it didn't have to be approved by anyone with priesthood authority?

I really don't know why threads discussing questions about the ultimate destiny of specific individuals keep cropping up. King Benjamin's teachings are relevant to us inasmuch as we apply them to our own lives and allow them to influence the choices we make

Whether or not we have a God who can forgive (particularly sinful) specific individuals might not seem relevant to you, but might seem relevant to someone else.

And whether or not He can forgive them after death might relate to a number of other questions.

Edited April 20, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Pahoran]

And it didn't have to be approved by anyone with priesthood authority?

No, actually. Once a name is submitted, it's "in the system" and will eventually pop up and the work will be done for it.

As part of its annual statistical report, the Church used to report on the number of "Names cleared for Temple ordinances." That statistic is no longer reported. (For some reason, the naysayers don't concoct conspiracy theories about that. Maybe because they can't rely upon innunedoes to the effect that Church leaders are somehow embezzling the names to feather their own nests.) But the last time it was reported, it was running consistently at about the same as the total number of members. So if someone was going to personally review each submission and sign off on it, that someone would be a large and growing full-time staff.

There are various safeguards in place to try to prevent inappropriate submissions by well-meaning (or other) individuals, but such safeguards are not foolproof.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Duncan]

Joseph Smith said, "God has made a provision that the spirits of our friends and every spirit in that eternal world can be ferreted out and saved, unless he has committed that unpardonable sin which can't be remitted to him, whether in this world or in the world of spirits.... All will suffer in the eternal world until they obey Christ himself and are exalted. Hence, the salvation of the Savior Jesus Christ was wrought out for all men to triumph over the works of the devil; if the plan did not catch them in one place, it would in another." (King Follett sermon)

So the answer seems to be, according to Smith's last word, that unless the ex-Mormon has committed the unpardonable sin, then he or she can (and will) eventually be exalted in the Celestial kingdom.

I would disagree, that would make life basically null and void, like who cares what you do everyone will be exalted anyways

[inquiringmind]

No, actually. Once a name is submitted, it's "in the system" and will eventually pop up and the work will be done for it.

As part of its annual statistical report, the Church used to report on the number of "Names cleared for Temple ordinances." That statistic is no longer reported. (For some reason, the naysayers don't concoct conspiracy theories about that. Maybe because they can't rely upon innunedoes to the effect that Church leaders are somehow embezzling the names to feather their own nests.) But the last time it was reported, it was running consistently at about the same as the total number of members. So if someone was going to personally review each submission and sign off on it, that someone would be a large and growing full-time staff.

There are various safeguards in place to try to prevent inappropriate submissions by well-meaning (or other) individuals, but such safeguards are not foolproof.

Regards,

Pahoran

I take it you believe that Hitler's proxy baptism was inappropriate?

I don't know.

Was king Benjamin saying that an ex Christian monster like Hitler couldn't repent after death?

(That's my question here.)

[Cobalt-70]

My question is whether king Benjamin's words contradict that answer.

(And I've been told that you have to see God before you can commit that sin.)

I tried to quote Mosiah 2:36-39 in full, but I see some of it was lost.

I'm interested in the words "after ye have known and been taught," "repenteth not," "dieth,"final doom," and "never ending"

Isn't king Benjamin saying that there's no repentance for those who sin against light, and die unrepentant, and doesn't that contradict what Joseph said in your quote (and what's taught in Doctrine and Covenants)?

And it didn't have to be approved by anyone with priesthood authority?

I don't think Mosiah 2:36-39 has anything to do with the unpardonable sin. Benjamin was talking about the essentially Methodist doctrine of "falling from grace," which is also referred to in D&C 20:32. According to that doctrine, once you are in a state of grace, it is possible for you to fall, or "backslide," and return to your carnal, sensual, and devilish nature. Benjamin was just saying that if you fall from grace and then die in that fallen state, it would be as if you had never received God's grace to begin with.

All the statements, however, about "everlasting punishment" and "never-ending torment" were later tempered by D&C 19, and Mormon theology became increasingly universalistic throughout Smith's lifetime, culminating in his statement in the King Follett sermon that everyone would eventually be exalted except the sons of perdition. People who merely fall from grace, as Benjamin described it, would only suffer a temporary punishment in the afterlife.

In Mormon soteriology, becoming a son of perdition has always been more than just backsliding. In the King Follett sermon, Smith said, "What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He has got to deny the plan of salvation; he has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it with his eyes open; he has got to receive the Holy Ghost, deny Jesus Christ when the heavens are open to him, know God, and then sin against him."

[inquiringmind]

I would disagree, that would make life basically null and void, like who cares what you do everyone will be exalted anyways

So in other words, you'd want to go on sinning until the day you died if you thought you'd be exalted anyway?

(Didn't Joseph say that wickedness never was happiness?)

[Cobalt-70]

I would disagree, that would make life basically null and void, like who cares what you do everyone will be exalted anyways

But I think Smith's point was that there is a great incentive to accept Jesus, because unless you do, you will be living in a state of self-created torment in the afterlife until you finally accept him. Plus, he said that if you die in the faith, then you don't have to worry because you won't have to suffer, and will enter a celestial state immediately.

[inquiringmind]

I don't think Mosiah 2:36-39 has anything to do with the unpardonable sin. Benjamin was talking about the essentially Methodist doctrine of "falling from grace," which is also referred to in D&C 20:32. According to that doctrine, once you are in a state of grace, it is possible for you to fall, or "backslide," and return to your carnal, sensual, and devilish nature. Benjamin was just saying that if you fall from grace and then die in that fallen state, it would be as if you had never received God's grace to begin with.

All the statements, however, about "everlasting punishment" and "never-ending torment" were later tempered by D&C 19, and Mormon theology became increasingly universalistic throughout Smith's lifetime, culminating in his statement in the King Follett sermon that everyone would eventually be exalted except the sons of perdition. People who merely fall from grace, as Benjamin described it, would only suffer a temporary punishment in the afterlife.

In Mormon soteriology, becoming a son of perdition has always been more than just backsliding. In the King Follett sermon, Smith said, "What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He has got to deny the plan of salvation; he has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it with his eyes open; he has got to receive the Holy Ghost, deny Jesus Christ when the heavens are open to him, know God, and then sin against him."

So what does "final doom" mean?

Edited April 20, 2012 by inquiringmind