Is There No Possibility Of Repentance For Ex Mormons Who Die Without Returning?

[Cobalt-70]

So what does "final doom" mean?

The same as "never-ending torment" and "everlasting punishment." I have no doubt that when Smith translated these verses, he believed that damnation was, indeed, a final, never-ending state. But then came D&C 19 which creatively reinterpreted the terms "endless" and "eternal"--and presumably "final." That's the power of continuing revelation.

[Calm]

I would disagree, that would make life basically null and void, like who cares what you do everyone will be exalted anyways

That would depend on what the purpose of life is.

[inquiringmind]

The same as "never-ending torment" and "everlasting punishment." I have no doubt that when Smith translated these verses, he believed that damnation was, indeed, a final, never-ending state. But then came D&C 19 which creatively reinterpreted the terms "endless" and "eternal"--and presumably "final." That's the power of continuing revelation.

But if the book of Mormon was translated "by the gift and power of God," weren't the words inspired?

And as for the suggestion that "eternal" means "of God" (because "Eternal is one of God's names"), serious linguists (like William Barclay) have made the suggestion that that is one of the meanings of the Greek and Hebrew terms translated "eternal."

Edited April 20, 2012 by inquiringmind

[inquiringmind]

I have no problem understanding "eternal" and "everlasting" the way D&C 19 indicates, but I have a problem understanding "final doom," and "never ending."

Is there a contradiction between king Benjamin and Joseph?

[Pahoran]

I take it you believe that Hitler's proxy baptism was inappropriate?

I don't know.

It was inappropriate because the name was not submitted by a descendant or close relative who was trying to do the work for his own ancestral family.

Was king Benjamin saying that an ex Christian monster like Hitler couldn't repent after death?

(That's my question here.)

No.

I've tried to explain to you, IM, that it's just not appropriate for us as mortals to arrogate to ourselves the role of judging, speculatively or otherwise, the ultimate reward of any person. That role is a divine one, and we are at best being idle and frivolous in indulging in it, and at worst we are guilty of lèse majesté and presumption.

Years ago, I used to have some interactions with certain other Christians, including JW's. I found it offensive that some of that group seemed to spend a lot of time explaining why certain dead biblical figures, including Adam, were in hell. The fact is that neither they, nor we, nor you, have enough information to make such determinations. The proper usage of King Benjamin's teaching is for each reader to search his or her own heart and decide how it applies there -- and nowhere else. Otherwise, we are following the example of the Pharisee, referenced in a parable of Jesus, who strolled into the Temple and loudly prayed, thanking God that he was so much better than everyone else.

King Benjamin's teaching has relevance to my salvation, but exactly how is for me to determine. It has relevance to your salvation, but that's not for me to worry about; it is for you. How it applies to anybody else, living or dead, is not.

Regards,

Pahoran

[inquiringmind]

Was king Benjamin saying that an ex Christian monster like Hitler couldn't repent after death?

(That's my question here.)

No.

Thank you.

If you believe that Hitler could conceivably repent, I assume you believe he could be saved.

If you believe he could be saved, you must either believe that he didn't knowingly "list to obey the evil spirit" king Benjamin spoke of, that he wasn't obeying that evil spirit in the very last acts of his life, or that there's some way of interpreting king Benjamin's words (in Mosiah 2:38-39) that I can't see (in other words, that it is possible for someone who died unrepentant, to be saved after death.)

Now let's forget the specific individual.

How is it possible for someone who died unrepentant to be saved after death if their "final doom is never ending torment"?

Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine ^bjustice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own ^cguilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the ^dpresence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and ^epain, and ^fanguish, which is like an unquenchable ^gfire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever. And now I say unto you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a never-ending torment. (Mosiah 2:38-39.)

Edited April 20, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Duncan]

So in other words, you'd want to go on sinning until the day you died if you thought you'd be exalted anyway?

(Didn't Joseph say that wickedness never was happiness?)

that is what I am reading the Joseph Smith quotation as saying that everyone regardless of what they did or who they became will be exalted anyways unless the have not committed the unpardonable sin

Edited April 20, 2012 by Duncan

[Duncan]

"Plus, he said that if you die in the faith, then you don't have to worry because you won't have to suffer, and will enter a celestial state immediately".

did he say that in the provided quotation?

[inquiringmind]

that is what I am reading the Joseph Smith quotation as saying that everyone will be exalted anyways unless the have not committed the unpardonable sin

So do you see a contradiction between this and what king Benjamin said in Mosiah 2:32-39?

[Log]

You guys might like my new thread. It's related to this one. [/shameless plug]

Edited April 20, 2012 by Log

[Buzzard]

I'm going to address the OP. Since we are taught that the spirit that inhabits our body when we die will rise in the spirit world, why would someone who is bitter towards the church in mortality have any interest in it on the other side. We won't have to drive them away, they will be busy running RFM support groups in spirit prison.

[Pahoran]

Thank you.

If you believe that Hitler could conceivably repent, I assume you believe he could be saved.

If you believe he could be saved, you must either believe that he didn't knowingly "list to obey the evil spirit" king Benjamin spoke of, that he wasn't obeying that evil spirit in the very last acts of his life, or that there's some way of interpreting king Benjamin's words (in Mosiah 2:38-39) that I can't see (in other words, that it is possible for someone who died unrepentant, to be saved after death.)

Now let's forget the specific individual.

How is it possible for someone who died unrepentant to be saved after death if their "final doom is never ending torment"?

Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine ^bjustice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own ^cguilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the ^dpresence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and ^epain, and ^fanguish, which is like an unquenchable ^gfire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever. And now I say unto you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a never-ending torment. (Mosiah 2:38-39.)

Sigh.

Let's look back a few verses, shall we?

Mosiah 2:

32 But, O my people, beware lest there shall arise contentions among you, and ye list to obey the evil spirit, which was spoken of by my father Mosiah.

33 For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge.

34 I say unto you, that there are not any among you, except it be your little children that have not been taught concerning these things, but what knoweth that ye are eternally indebted to your heavenly Father, to render to him all that you have and are; and also have been taught concerning the records which contain the prophecies which have been spoken by the holy prophets, even down to the time our father, Lehi, left Jerusalem;

35 And also, all that has been spoken by our fathers until now. And behold, also, they spake that which was commanded them of the Lord; therefore, they are just and true.

36 And now, I say unto you, my brethren, that after ye have known and have been taught all these things, [including "the prophecies which have been spoken by the holy prophets, even down to the time our father, Lehi, left Jerusalem" -- P] if ye should transgress and go contrary to that which has been spoken, that ye do withdraw yourselves from the Spirit of the Lord, that it may have no place in you to guide you in wisdom’s paths that ye may be blessed, prospered, and preserved—

37 I say unto you, that the man that doeth this, the same cometh out in open rebellion against God; therefore he listeth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness; therefore, the Lord has no place in him, for he dwelleth not in unholy temples.

IOW, everything is predicated upon the degree of knowledge the transgressor has. He must be consciously choosing to do wrong, knowing it to be so.

And now, IM: the ONE AND ONLY appropriate usage of this scripture is to lead each reader to contemplate just one question.

Do you know what question that is?

Might it be, "Does this contradict something I've read elsewhere?"

No, probably not.

Is it something like, "Does this mean that someone really evil like Bill Clinton will spend his entire eternity as the guest of honour at his own bonfire party?"

Not that one either.

The one question we should all be contemplating is the one the apostles asked Jesus that evening in the upper room: "Lord, is it I?"

That's what these moral teachings are for, IM. It isn't about "What's going to happen to them," it's about "What should I be doing about this?"

Just IMHO, of course.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Maidservant]

I don't know how to read scripture any other way.

If the book of Mormon is true, wouldn't that mean that the words of king Benjamin (recorded in Mosiah 2) are 100% true?

I think this would lead to how each of us defines truth and we might not agree.

But let me repeat that the truth is found in the entire, together, not the bits in pieces. As I say.

And the "entire" is: 1) all the scriptures (including non-lds texts and good books and inspired and revealed words); 2) temple learning; 3) life experience and progression in covenants; 4) personal revelation as provided by the Father and/or the Spirit.

The truth then becomes YOU and who YOU become. Not what is written on the page. YOU become true. *I* become true.

I am not saying that I will be agreed with, but this is where I am coming from when I make my answers.

So in other words, you'd want to go on sinning until the day you died if you thought you'd be exalted anyway?

(Didn't Joseph say that wickedness never was happiness?)

A person who does everything they are asked to do "for" exaltation also cannot be exalted. UNTIL a person learns to do good even if they never receive a reward or exaltation--then they are a person with charity, which is celestial.

Exaltation is not something one is given. Exaltation is something you become.

Any human being--whether in this life, the spirit world, or speculatively in further eternity--who IS doing wrong, and especially if they realize what they are doing or have done, will suffer; and will suffer as they do their best to change (it's a difficult process to change!).

Everyone is 'exalted' in the same way--by changing (by means of the atonement). Whenever that happens, wherever that happens, with whatever environment they may find themselves in, and how ever long it takes. So wickedness never is happiness--we have to change.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Maidservant

[inquiringmind]

And now, IM: the ONE AND ONLY appropriate usage of this scripture is to lead each reader to contemplate just one question

Not if it's appropriate to examine the Book of Mormon, ponder whether or not it's true, and think it through in your mind.

Might it be, "Does this contradict something I've read elsewhere?"

Of course it might, because any real contradiction between the Book of Mormon and the D&C would mean that they both couldn't be true (and that would mean that the COJCOLDS) can't be true.

You can't "know" something to be true unless it is true, so the question of whether or not one text contradicts another is directly related to "the Truth" and knowledge your talking about here.

for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge

And I thought the book of Mormon said that God gave everyone the knowledge of right and wrong.

that after ye have known and have been taught all these things, [including "the prophecies which have been spoken by the holy prophets, even down to the time our father, Lehi, left Jerusalem"

Down to the time that Lehi left Jerusalem--that would be the time of Jeremiah, right?

Those prophecies would be in the Christian Bible Hitler had growing up, wouldn't they?

That's what these moral teachings are for, IM. It isn't about "What's going to happen to them," it's about "What should I be doing about this?"

And just forget about whether or not there are any real contradictions, and whether or not it's all true?

For those of you who believe that it's possible for someone who dies unrepentant, with enough knowledge of the Christian Faith to make him somewhat accountable for his sins, to repent and inherit some degree of glory: How do you avoid seeing some contradiction between this teaching and Mosiah 2::32-39?

How do you understand the words "final doom," and "never ending torment"?

Edited April 20, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Duncan]

So do you see a contradiction between this and what king Benjamin said in Mosiah 2:32-39?

yes, but knowing what I know about the KFD I am not saying Joseph was confused about it-all I am saying in essence is that if you are unrepentant as apostates seem to be then i don't think they will be exalted but I don't lump less actives and apostates in one group

[wenglund]

How would you interpret "final doom"?

Isn't it a mountain in the land of Modor?

Seriously, though, it is the sentence that Kevin Graham pronounces on LDS apologetics nearly every time he posts.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 20, 2012 by wenglund

[wenglund]

I've tried to explain to you, IM, that it's just not appropriate for us as mortals to arrogate to ourselves the role of judging, speculatively or otherwise, the ultimate reward of any person. That role is a divine one, and we are at best being idle and frivolous in indulging in it, and at worst we are guilty of lèse majesté and presumption....The fact is that neither they, nor we, nor you, have enough information to make such determinations. The proper usage of King Benjamin's teaching is for each reader to search his or her own heart and decide how it applies there -- and nowhere else. Otherwise, we are following the example of the Pharisee, referenced in a parable of Jesus, who strolled into the Temple and loudly prayed, thanking God that he was so much better than everyone else.

King Benjamin's teaching has relevance to my salvation, but exactly how is for me to determine. It has relevance to your salvation, but that's not for me to worry about; it is for you. How it applies to anybody else, living or dead, is not. Regards, Pahoran

This is profound, and it surprised me that it doesn't seem to register with certain parties, even after it has been explained multiple time. Perhaps the failure to register is intentional?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[inquiringmind]

Perhaps the failure to register is intentional?

And perhaps I've been lied to?

I've been told by people who said they were inspired that it's impossible to become a son of perdition unless you've been baptized and confirmed by someone with priesthood authority, and even then, I've been told "you almost have to see God."

King Benjamin seems to say that a whole generation (all except the youngest children) were accountable enough (because of what they had "been taught, and known") to earn themselves a final doom of never ending torment if they go against what they've been taught, and die without repenting (without a word about baptism, confirmation, or seeing God.)

This seems to me to directly contradict everything I've been personally taught, and what I've read in D&C, and at the moment I don't see how your Church can be true.

Edited April 20, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Log]

Did you never read those papers I sent you links to, wherein this was specifically explained?

Specifically, this one?

Edited April 20, 2012 by Log

[inquiringmind]

Did you never read those papers I sent you links to, wherein this was specifically explained?

Specifically, this one?

I don't see anything in there about multiple mortal probations, and I don't see how that's possible (even as speculation) given what king Benjamin said about final doom and never ending torment.

Contrary to D&C 19 and 76, I don't see how his words (in the second chapter of Mosiah) really leave room for any sinner who had the light of Christ to tell him right from wrong, and who died without repenting, to be saved after death (and I came here looking for some help.)

Edited April 20, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Log]

Which thread are we in? I don't think it's the one about multiple mortal probations.

So, the limit of your actual reading is to run a quick word search?

Why not read the paper, as it does help?

Edited April 20, 2012 by Log

[inquiringmind]

Which thread are we in? I don't think it's the one about multiple mortal probations.

So, the limit of your actual reading is to run a quick word search?

The Multiple Mortal Probations you theorize would be impossible if the final choice between just two ways is made in this life, and the consequence of making the wrong choice is (in king Benjamin's words) a final doom of never ending torment.

Edited April 20, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Log]

Ok, just to make sure you see this: READ THE PAPER.

And, FYI, the MMP is not my theorizing. I don't have a position on it, really. I find it interesting; it is pure speculation, and is not doctrinal in any sense. But take any discussions about it to its thread.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Log

[inquiringmind]

Ok, just to make sure you see this: READ THE PAPER.

The end of probation is repeatedly correlated in the Book of Mormon with the end of mortality (see 2 Nephi 2:21, 30; Alma 5:15; 12:24; 34:31–34). It is true that a space (time) is described between physical death and the final judgment and resurrection, during which the spirits of men continue to exist (see 2 Nephi 9:11–14; Alma 40:11–14). However, the possibility of repentance during this intermediate state is not suggested. Thus in the Book of Mormon the probationary period is never portrayed as extending beyond mortality into the spirit world. Indeed, Amulek warns us that if we have procrastinated the day of our repentance until the end of mortality, we will have made ourselves irreversibly subjected to the spirit of the devil without power to repent:

For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; . . . I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his

; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked. (Alma 34:32–35)

This awful state of captivity to the devil comes only to those who waste the days of their probation after having received the commandments of God (see 2 Nephi 9:27).

I understand.

King Benjamin is contradicting Doctrine and Covenants, what I've been told is all wrong, and anyone who has the commandments of God and wastes the days of their probation here is a son of perdition (even if they've never been baptized.)

Is that right?

That would, of course mean that the answer to the question I asked in the OP is "no."

There is no possibility of repentance for ex Mormons who die without returning, because they're all sop's.

That's what your paper seemed to be saying to me the first time I read it, and that's what it seems to be saying now.

Edited April 20, 2012 by inquiringmind

[why me]

I've been told that you'd have to see God to take apostasy to the extreme you're talking about, and King Benjamin doesn't seem to be talking to those who've seen God themselves, he's talking to those who've "been taught".(verse 36.)

So is he saying that those who've been taught, had a testimony, and die in apostasy are beyond repentance?

If that's true, and John D. Lee died an unrepentant liar and murderer, why was his membership and Temple endowment restored?

Hitler may not have known anything about the restored Gospel, but I think he was raised a Christian (Catholic or Lutheran), so he would have been taught some things (i.e. the ten commandments, the golden rule, the atonement), and he certainly rejected all of it, and died unrepentant (ordering his troops to destroy everything the allies could use, even if it meant that his own people would starve.)

If there's no possibility of his repentance, why was a proxy baptism performed for him?

We have no idea just how god will judge his children. We can only assume. And that is the problem with such kind of threads as this. We only can have assumptions.