Prophetic "Antichrist" To Prevail Over The Saints

[Cold Steel]

When Daniel spoke of the fourth beast,

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; and of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. (Daniel 7:13-22)

The prophecy speaks of the creation of Christ's latter-day kingdom. But before that, Daniel speaks of four kings. The fourth king was "diverse from all the others" and "exceeding dreadful." This is generally seen as the Roman Empire. This beast had ten horns, three of which fell to an additional horn which "came up" and which "had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things." This horn is viewed by many as the dreaded "Antichrist." It would prevail against the saints of the most High until the Ancient of Days came.

Adam, the Ancient of Days, will come to what is now the area near Independence, Missouri. Are we to understand that some sort of king will rise who will prevail against us and others who oppose him until the saints meet at Adam-Ondi-Ahman?

According to prophecy, this nation will crumble due to internal duress and will cease to be a superpower. The cities will be wastelands and people will go about in mobs, fighting each other and all industry will cease. The saints will build up Zion and the tribes will come from the North with their prophets, scriptures and wealth. But I've seen no prophecies of a tormentor.

What's your take?

[LeSellers]

I'm what many people would call a firm-core prepper (as opposed to a hard-core prepper).

I strongly believe that this nation (USmerica—and she will be far from alone in this, but, due to her being a land of promise, she will be most noticeably hit) will face near fatal collapse before Christ's foot hits Mt Olivet: riots, commotion, wide-spread destruction, it will be much like what happened in Zerahemla, c. ad 32~33. Clans and tribes based on friendship, modern families being too dispersed to fill that role, will coalesce around local strong men.

Money will cease to have any value. Food will be scarce for many reasons, not least being that it grows far from the dinner plate, and moving it will be prohibitively expensive, if possible at all. Water and sewer services will be mere memories and disease will be widespread. Who eats will depend on whether he has stored enough for the bad times, or on whether he can steal from those who did.

It may be somewhat like Masada: with mothers eating their own children.

The righteous will have some protection if they "stand in holy places": stake centers and Temples of God, homes with the light of Christ as their illumination. Others will plead to come in, but their numbers will make admitting them near impossible.

One cannot read Daniel or Revelation without a sense that the calamity will be extensive, near total, and deserved.

Lehi

[Cold Steel]

Well, in Masada they had plenty to eat and drink. Jerusalem, on the other hand, suffered severe starvation when they were under siege by Flavius Josephus. There also was cannibalism during the crusades, only it was the enemy that was eaten. But my question had to do more with the one who would prevail against the saints until the coming of the Ancient of Days.

Some people believe this will be the same as the man who will bring the Gentiles down upon the Jews (Ezekiel 38). I don't buy this, but I'm having problems putting it together.

[Truth]

I always picture the collapse somewhat like Atlas Shrugged and frankly it seems very evident in our current society, particularly given some of the issues going on now. Sometimes I wonder if the person in the White House now is not this. I wonder to if Romney is elected, does that mean the elders of Israel saving the Constitution?

I tend to be a pretty hard core prepper, better over prepared than under, unfortunately it seems more and more like it may be needed. It is interesting, though, the number of members that think "we will all share and God will provide" so don't worry.

CS, it seems to me that one will rise up, at least that is my interpretation, YMMV, but it seems that more and more power is being taken by government at the expense of the people.

[Avatar4321]

Ill be honest. I don't know what all those prophecy mean or how things will be. But I am confident that trusting in the Lord will make sure we get through everything.

I do know that Ezra Taft Benson did say that the United States would be the only nation that could survive until the Second Coming as a nation. Not necessarily that it would, but it could.

I also believe there is a prophecy from George Albert Smith saying that there will come a day when the skimpiest meal they had during the Great Depression would seem like a Sunday Feast. or something to that effect.

As for whether there is an antiChrist, I don't know. I find that the prophecies can be interpreted differently and the Lord hasnt explained them all to me yet.

[Evergrow]

LDS Theology is that there is a "spirit" of Anti-Christ which can take many forms, similar to the Church of the Devil, be it individuals, institutions, or ideology's. There is not a particular "person" that is some big Anti-Christ. This is also my view from the scriptures on the subject.

Also, if my memory is correct the "Ancient of Days" already came during the Restoration (one of Joseph's visitations)? Thus, the Anti-Christ that prevailed against the Church for 2,000 years was put down with the Restoration.

[CV75]

When Daniel spoke of the fourth beast,

What's your take?

We know the devil is at war with the saints, and as long as our dominions are small (according to prophecy—1 Nephi 12:14), he is prevailing against us until such time as he is bound (Revelations 20:2; D&C 43:41). He works through the "beast" of secret combinations that are set up in and at all levels of society (individual, family, governments, corprorations, etc.) and by other means by which corruption prevails in the fallen world.

[bluebell]

Also, if my memory is correct the "Ancient of Days" already came during the Restoration (one of Joseph's visitations)? Thus, the Anti-Christ that prevailed against the Church for 2,000 years was put down with the Restoration.

As I have always heard it interpreted, the Ancient of Days is Adam and he has not come yet but will come to Adam ondi ahman before the Second Coming. I don't have a reference on that right now though and don't have time to look it up.

[Rob Osborn]

I am not sure there is any scriptural prophecy fortellin the doom of this nation. Call me optimistic but I have a hard time believing this nation will be destroyed.

[Matthew J. Tandy]

There is the Abomination of Desolation, who, like with the Jerusalem Temple, will enter into one of our temples I believe the one in Independence) and declare himself God (whether in mockery or whatever is unclear). I would imagine he is part of the group prevailing against the saints, which we know includes people outside the LDS faith too. It will be interesting times indeed.

[cdowis]

Well, since we are having fun, here goes:

I think that the US will support military action against Iran within a few months. The current US leader will decide that the only way to get re-elected is to start a war, and the electorate will not turn out a president in the middle of a war. He has already warned Iran that the time window is very short and he has been making statements that the "other party" is forcing him into this.

In the meantime, here at home domestic violence will increase, including the BOM prophecy that the Lamanites will be like lions among the sheep. This prophecy is already in the process of fulfillment with the drug cartels. Recent reports indicate that they are extending now into Europe.

Remember, you heard it here first.

Edited March 28, 2012 by cdowis

[Stargazer]

There is the Abomination of Desolation, who, like with the Jerusalem Temple, will enter into one of our temples I believe the one in Independence) and declare himself God (whether in mockery or whatever is unclear). I would imagine he is part of the group prevailing against the saints, which we know includes people outside the LDS faith too. It will be interesting times indeed.

Well, I thought I've heard it all, but that one isn't in my bestiary. Where did you read that?

[Stargazer]

Well, since we are having fun, here goes:

I think that the US will support military action against Iran within a few months. The current US leader will decide that the only way to get re-elected is to start a war, and the electorate will not turn out a president in the middle of a war. He has already warned Iran that the time window is very short and he has been making statements that the "other party" is forcing him into this.

Remember, you heard it here first.

Sorry, no, I heard it elsewhere first! Some caller to Michael Medved's radio show a few days ago.

Although the bit about "the other party" is new to me.

[CV75]

I am not sure there is any scriptural prophecy fortellin the doom of this nation. Call me optimistic but I have a hard time believing this nation will be destroyed.

I agree, since the land has been redeemed already (D&C 101:80). We will be held accountable as individuals for what we do with this blessing and for the quality of life in this land. This would include how well we adhere to its Constitution. I also think Elder Oaks’ remarks about the connection between tithing and national preservation in the March Ensign is very interesting in this regard: http://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/03/the-gospel-culture?lang=eng

[cdowis]

Although the bit about "the other party" is new to me.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/07/world/middleeast/obama-rebukes-gop-critics-of-his-iran-policy.html

[Rob Osborn]

Conservative radio ( I call it Jihad radio for all the war-mongering and doomsdayers) can and does plant the false idea that America is on the downward spiral and will be destroyed or is on the brink of it always. I consider myself conservative but I can't stand all of them dooms-dayers on that program. If everyone in America got their news from conservative talk radio, we would all have to live in bomb shelters with 2 years supply of guns, ammo and food supply. Thankfully, we have living prophets who tell us and teach us to live outside of that doom and gloom.

[Rob Osborn]

Well, since we are having fun, here goes:

I think that the US will support military action against Iran within a few months. The current US leader will decide that the only way to get re-elected is to start a war, and the electorate will not turn out a president in the middle of a war. He has already warned Iran that the time window is very short and he has been making statements that the "other party" is forcing him into this.

In the meantime, here at home domestic violence will increase, including the BOM prophecy that the Lamanites will be like lions among the sheep. This prophecy is already in the process of fulfillment with the drug cartels. Recent reports indicate that they are extending now into Europe.

Remember, you heard it here first.

That prophecy was in place (lion amongst sheep) if the gentiles on this land rejected the gospel. This is an either/or prophecy. We are fulfilling the other part instead because we have accepted the gospel. The drug cartels are just modern day gadianton robbers.

[LeSellers]

If everyone in America got their news from conservative talk radio, we would all have to live in bomb shelters with 2 years supply of guns, ammo and food supply. Thankfully, we have living prophets who tell us and teach us to live outside of that doom and gloom.

And yet those same prophets tell us to have two years supply of food and clothing and fuel, not to mention money, set aside.

They counsel us to become debt-free—even though many short-sighted folks tell us that inflation (a certainty in the next few years) will pay off for the debtor, and hurt the saver (which is, true, but highly misleading and very dangerous to the debtor).

They remind us that hard times are coming, and that we should prepare temporally as well as spiritually. (See "To the Men and Boys", President Hinckley's talk on this subject, which prompted me to write the book The Earth is the Lord's.)

I find your interpretation of the prophets' words a bit off the mark, and potentially perilous. As "Truth" said, it's better to be over- than under-prepared.

Lehi

Edited March 28, 2012 by LeSellers

[Zakuska]

Obamaville?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDGORiD82rQ

[Rob Osborn]

And yet those same prophets tell us to have two years supply of food and clothing and fuel, not to mention money, set aside.

The encourage us to become debt-free—even though many short-sighted folks tell us that inflation (a certainty in the next few years) will pay off for the debtor, and hurt the saver (which is, true, but highly misleading and very dangerous to the debtor).

They tell us that hard times are coming, and that we should prepare temporally as well as spiritually. (See "To the Men and Boys", President Hinckley's talk on this subject, which prompted me to write the book The Earth is the Lord's.)

I find your interpretation of the prophets' words a bit off the mark, and potentially perilous. As "Truth" said, it's better to be over- than under-prepared.

Lehi

ETB was the last prophet to speak doomsday scenerios. The ideas from his sermons go back older than me. We are led by living prophets in our day. president Monson has been preaching peace and prosperity through righteous living his whole life. ther eis a reason he is the prophet we have today. Ultra conservatives need to get off their shoebox of preaching doomsday prophecy. We should all be prepared against the coming storm, whatever it may be. But it wont be by commy nvasion from China, nor will it be a takeover by socialism, communism or a complete takeover by black opps or the united nations!. We in America do need to wake up to our moral problems, but the work of the Lord will progress and fulfill the prophecy that it shall fill the world until all evil is destroyed. I have neighbors who stockpile guns and food in belief that America will turn into a anarchist or communist state and it will be every man for himself. Its all bull%%%%. Outr living prophets do not warn us against that at all.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Rob Osborn

[Stargazer]

Conservative radio ( I call it Jihad radio for all the war-mongering and doomsdayers) can and does plant the false idea that America is on the downward spiral and will be destroyed or is on the brink of it always. I consider myself conservative but I can't stand all of them dooms-dayers on that program. If everyone in America got their news from conservative talk radio, we would all have to live in bomb shelters with 2 years supply of guns, ammo and food supply. Thankfully, we have living prophets who tell us and teach us to live outside of that doom and gloom.

Living outside of doom and gloom is something one does in the light of the Atonement. It does not mean that in this life we will have peace, because Christ himself said he did not come to bring peace, but instead a sword. The peace of the Gospel is not (necessarily) the world's peace, although the experience of the Nephites, post the resurrected Christ's visit) and that of the City of Enoch clearly suggests that they can co-exist, at least temporarily, in this mortal coil.

As to warnings of doom and gloom from Conservative radio, well, what was the function of Cassandra if not to tell the truth about the future but never being believed? The suggestion of Isaiah is that there would be ample warning of the doom to come (see the Book of Revelation for a taste) but that few would heed it -- which of course is partly responsible for the doom and gloom that comes.

As does Lehi, I point to the admonishment to keep a year or two's supply of essentials. It isn't necessarly ONLY because you might lose your job for a time, although with that supply you are equipped to endure such.

[Stargazer]

Obamaville?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDGORiD82rQ

Oh, that is soooo cute! Watch the thread get shut down for politics, lol. But a nice little video, nevertheless. I don't doubt that Obama's campaign could easily come up with something just as dark and emotionally charged (and just as slightly ridiculous) and call it Romneyville.

At this point, I don't think Santorum has much chance of getting the nomination. FWIW.

[Rob Osborn]

There is no doubt that we in this country will be visited by gloomy days such as we have seen with the recent tornado outbreak over the past few years. But will it be by some entire collapse of the economy or even worse- some communist conspiracy takeover? I highly doubt it. If one listen carefully to the words of the prophets, they do not fortell these types of things happening in our country at this moment. No prophet has told us to stockpile food and weapons because of some great tragedy (conspiracy) soon to come to this country. However, they have always warned us about being prepared for natural disasters.

I see it as a general breakdown in how one interprets scripture. People will find what they are looking for no matter what almost exclusivally!

[Zakuska]

Oh, that is soooo cute! Watch the thread get shut down for politics, lol. But a nice little video, nevertheless. I don't doubt that Obama's campaign could easily come up with something just as dark and emotionally charged (and just as slightly ridiculous) and call it Romneyville.

At this point, I don't think Santorum has much chance of getting the nomination. FWIW.

Shut down for politics?

I was refering to the fact that many people see the Apocalypse as outlined in Daniel and Revelations coming to fruition right now.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Zakuska

[CV75]

RE: Presdient Benson's counsel--it was needed and heeded by enough people to prevent some very disastrous things. The guidance we have today has been built upon that result, and living prophets will continue to provide further counsel as updates are needed; it is a different world.

OR

RE: Presdient Benson's counsel--it was needed but not heeded by enough people and some very disastrous things cam about. The guidance we have today has been built upon that result, and living prophets will continue to provide further counsel as updates are needed; it is a different world.

In either case, we have means to deal with the situation at hand by keeping up-to-date with current counsel and learning from both sad and happy experieince.