So, Are They All Lying? Or Just Delusional?

[Stargazer]

It's unfortunate that everyone isn't a graduate student in Neuroscience.

But this problem has more or less been solved. I think the biggest issue about "personal experience" (be it hearing a voice that you will be called to a position or whatever) is that science actually has shown that such "revelations" are a normal function of the brain.

"Solved"? Oh, you're a scream. My receiving a strong impression that I was to be called to a position is a normal function of the brain? It must have been very contagious then, because the stake president, with whom I had never before spoken or even been introduced to -- he must have had a normal function of the brain, too.

And naturally you'll just toss this into the bin labelled "Coincidences".

Enjoy!

[Stargazer]

Any more insults like that and you are out of the thread.

Oh, I don't think he was trying to be insulting, Hestia, I think he was trying to be ironic. I mean, we're all monkeys or descendants of monkeys, aren't we? At least according to some folks...

Reminds me of the movie Gettysburg, wherein Confederate Generals George Pickett, Armistead, Kemper and Garnet have a conversation around the evening fire about Darwin's theory, and Pickett declares to all that he will settle the matter about this "heathen notion":

Pickett: "Gentlemen, perhaps there are some of you who believe that you are descended from a ape. Perhaps there are even some of you who believe that I am descended from a ape. But I challenge you to find a man who will claim that General Robert E. Lee is descended from a ape."

Whereupon General Garnet responds: "Not likely!" General Longstreet, who had been patiently listening to this point, throws up his hands in disgust and leaves, while Armistead declares "George, all science trembles before the searing logic of your intellect!"

As the scene winds down, we heard General Kemper asking General Pickett: "So, George, exactly how many of your relatives are apes?"

I love this movie. I've watched it too many times, as you can probably tell. And this is one of my favorite scenes.

[Hamba Tuhan]

"Solved"? Oh, you're a scream. My receiving a strong impression that I was to be called to a position is a normal function of the brain?

Don't knock normal brain function, SG. It's all perfect logical:

The rest of our brain hasn't gone away though! When you get a "flash" of insight, that's simply other brain regions that solved the problem for you without you realizing it.

When you fall asleep with a question (such as "should I serve a mission" or "What is the structure of benzene") your brain works on the problem as you sleep- we know this to be true.

See, a simple explanation.

In fact, I had the very experience Eldwynn alludes to here: falling asleep thinking about whether or not I should serve a mission. I was in my first year at uni and already 19, so the idea of a mission had passed through my mind. Whilst I'd been home with my family during the Christmas holiday, I'd raised it with my parents, but they had begged me not to think about going then since they simply didn't see how they could pull it off financially. My sister was due to finish her uni degree in one more year, however, and had said that she'd be able to help as well if I'd wait til then, so that was my plan, and I was happy with it. I'd even discussed it with my bishop, and he'd said it sounded like a good plan.

One night, however, I had a long and very vivid dream wherein I was a missionary. Oddly enough, I didn't do much in the dream but knock on people's doors, but I felt happier than I'd ever been before and, when I awoke the following morning, I still felt filled with an overwhelming sense of peace and contentment. I took this to be the Spirit urging me to serve a mission despite my parents' reluctance, but clearly it was just the non-frontal-cortex regions of my brain working out the problem for me as I slept.

It's genuinely amazing how much certain parts of our brain can know without our awareness. In my case, the one detail which stuck out from my dream--and which I recorded in my journal the following day--was knocking on the door of a famous American rock star. Eighteen months later and in my third area as a missionary, we were at an investigator's house one night, and she was asking my companion and me if we enjoyed our service as missionaries. I told her honestly that I'd never been happier and shared with her that part of what had convinced me to serve when I had was a dream wherein I'd been very happy as a missionary. I told her I felt like my experiences thus far had confirmed the accuracy of the dream. Then, for some reason, I decided to share the rather odd part of my dream where I'd knocked on this particular rock star's door and said to our investigator that I didn't understand that odd bit but assumed it was just some part of my own subconscious creeping in.

The investigator looked stunned. 'Do you want to go?' she asked.

'Go where?'

'To fulfil that part of your dream.' It was my turn to look stunned. I explained that I was pretty sure the rocker lived in New York City or possibly California.

'No,' the investigator said. 'She lives just down the road a bit now. She moved here quietly a couple of weeks ago. My mother sold her the house.'

So off we went.

As I said, the human brain is amazing in what it can process and figure out without our being aware of it. In my case, whilst I was sleeping, my brain sorted out six months before I received my mission call that I was going to serve in America. It also knew what state I was going to serve in, and it knew that my third area was going to include a sparsely populated section of the coast. Beyond that, my brain quite naturally had figured out that this rock star was going to buy a summer home in that very area whilst I was serving there and that our one-and-only investigator at the time would have a mother who, as a real estate agent, would be the one to sell this very summer home and so know the whereabouts of the rocker.

See, it's all quite simple and totally natural in its explanation.

As is what happened with my parents after my vivid dream/normal brain function.

Convinced that I oughtn't wait an extra year to leave on my mission, I determined to raise the topic again with my parents. I was nervous about this solely because I was aware of their financial situation and didn't want to offend or hurt them by asking them to reconsider what we had discussed only once but with a clear outcome. Finally one evening, I screwed up my courage and determined to ring them. Beforehand, I prayed several times pleading with the Lord to help me not offend my good, good parents in any way. Nervous, I dialled the number, and my mother answered. I jumped right in and said, 'Mum, there's something I want to talk with you and Dad about.'

'We know,' she said.

'Know what?'

'That you need to leave on your mission soon.'

Relief! 'How do you know that?'

She explained that they had just finished praying together before bed, and, upon her saying, 'Amen,' Dad had told her that he'd been informed during the prayer that I mustn't delay my mission. She'd told him she'd had the exact same impression, and then, only seconds later, the phone had rung. When she heard my voice, she knew I must be ringing to discuss what had just happened to them.

Clearly, certain primitive regions of their brains knew that I was thinking about a mission even though I'd never raised it before or after our one discussion at Christmastime. Brains! They sure are amazing and explain absolutely everything.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Hamba Tuhan

[freedom_of_religion]

No.

But is their reported claims of seeing UFOs cause enough for you to then declare belief that there really are extraterrestrial vehicles visiting earth?

That is my question for the Ex's. If they believed the stories before from people that had these experiences, those that literally have declared they saw a spirit, angel, deceased relative or whatever else they witnessed, do they stop believing them after they leave? If we use the example I gave of the man that spent time with his deceased wife in the Celestial Room of the temple. If one were to believe that story were true while in the church, will they believe it when they leave? If they don't, then what do they believe the truth is? That he lied? Thought he saw his wife in the temple? Thus being delusional. Or what? If I at one point believed that UFO's existed because I believed the stories I heard, I think I'd tend to believe them even after I left. That is unless those telling the stories were proved to be fraudulent or just plain out admitted they lied.

Like I said earlier, I've never had any more than a "warm feeling" as declaration or witness of anything. I can read the scriptures or listen to a talk by a General Authority and get that "warm feeling", but I also get that feeling when I watch an inspirational movie. It is quite possible that the "warm feeling" I get is nothing more than my mind creating a natural emotion or it could be the Holy Ghost, I don't know how to tell the difference.

I've never had a relative that has died come back to me, or seen an angel, or as some say "had my spritual eyes opened". I've never felt any kind of "out of body" experience or any type of "out of the ordinary" experience. Does that mean that my testimony can't grow from the testimony's of those that have? Of course I'd love it if my deceased son were to come to me and declare all of the truth's that I seek, or just to tell me I'm doing the right thing. Since this has never happened all I have is the testimony's of those that have.

[rodheadlee]

It's unfortunate that everyone isn't a graduate student in Neuroscience.

But this problem has more or less been solved. I think the biggest issue about "personal experience" (be it hearing a voice that you will be called to a position or whatever) is that science actually has shown that such "revelations" are a normal function of the brain.

Your brain evolved over hundreds of millions of years. What makes our brains different than the rest of mammals? Well for starters, we have this incredibly large frontal cortex that allows us to make decisions, process information in real time, and choose what we attend to. This evolution happened over a short period of time- just a few million years.

The rest of our brain hasn't gone away though! When you get a "flash" of insight, that's simply other brain regions that solved the problem for you without you realizing it. Why did the guy have a feeling that he would be called to stake president? Because it was obvious based on his actions and hard work in the community. His brain knew "this is what a stake president looked like" and "Hey I look like this" and did all the math without him realizing it. It's sad that you aren't giving your unconscious mind the credit it deserves

When you fall asleep with a question (such as "should I serve a mission" or "What is the structure of benzene") your brain works on the problem as you sleep- we know this to be true. This happens across cultures, across religions etc. etc.

If you think such dreams and flashes of insight are simply the work of god, then you need to explain why people have them to do horrible and very nonreligious things. Do you think God influences a serial killer to have a "eureka" moment on the best way to make a human being suffer? It's a very serious questions.

In short, we are left with two hypotheses. I think we can reject the supernatural (which has no observable reason to believe) and accept the perfectly reasonable explanation that science has given us.

Science works, you monkeys! People aren't lying or delusional. They are ignorant to how the brain functions, have imperfect memories of events, exaggerate for social reasons, and are just generally wrong about most everything.

This is why experiments and analyzations made by a LOT of scientists is better trusted than a single person.

So, What part of the brain is responsible for wide awake, driving down the freeway visions? You're saying my subconcious knew my wife had cancer? and it really wasn't a miracle (as the doctors described) that we caught it so soon she didn't need chemotherapy?

[boblloyd91]

'To fulfil that part of your dream.' It was my turn to look stunned. I explained that I was pretty sure the rocker lived in New York City or possibly California.

'No,' the investigator said. 'She lives just down the road a bit now. She moved here quietly a couple of weeks ago. My mother sold her the house.'

So off we went.

What a cool story!

Out of curiosity who did you end up meeting?

[Pahoran]

So, What part of the brain is responsible for wide awake, driving down the freeway visions? You're saying my subconcious knew my wife had cancer? and it really wasn't a miracle (as the doctors described) that we caught it so soon she didn't need chemotherapy?

That's it: you knew, but you didn't know you knew; hence, it was your "subconscious mind" that did the knowing.

You see, we don't all have to be graduate students in neuroscience (as if everyone could be graduate students in one particular scientific speciality out of so many.) Once you understand the psychobabble, anyone can play the game.

This is how just-so stories work, you see; they explain everything by explaining nothing.

Regards,

Pahoran

[cinepro]

Clearly, certain primitive regions of their brains knew that I was thinking about a mission even though I'd never raised it before or after our one discussion at Christmastime. Brains! They sure are amazing and explain absolutely everything.

While brain function is one factor to consider Hamba Tuhan, you also can't forget this important principle, best expressed by Oscar Hammerstein:

Let's take the most unlikely event you can imagine. Imagine something even less likely than your pre-mission dream about the rock star. Since we probably all agree that "unlikely" events happen every day without God's intervention, we should establish some criteria for distinguishing between divinely guided unlikely events and randon ones.

What is the difference? Is it just the odds (i.e. anything with less than 1:1,000,000 odds is divinely guided, anything greater is just chance)? Is it the meaning we give it? Does the "chance" need some element of spirituality or religion in order to invoke a theory of divine intervention?

In the specific case of your rock star and dream, what are the odds? What are the odds of a missionary meeting someone who knows a celebrity they had a dream about? How often do 18 year old boys dream of rock stars or other celebrities? How many rock stars are there on the planet? How many doors do missionaries knock on every day?

And other than being highly unlikely, you don't ascribe any further meaning to the dream story. What are we supposed to learn from this? What is the divine purpose? Did it result in a person finding the gospel and being baptized, or otherwise strengthening faith? Did you actually go knock on the door of the rock star (and was it similar to your dream)? And what divine mechanism was at work (i.e. what purpose did the dream serve in a gospel context)?

I agree it's an amazing coincedence, but I'm not sure it's more amazing than the kinds of coincedences that happen everyday.

[Tarski]

When a young child is encouraged to get up in church and say that they know the church is true what do we call it?

I wouldn't have called it lying. So that set the pattern that was internalized; such a thing just isn't lying.

I'll speak as if I were still in the church (technically true since I am a member of record).

From a very young age we find ourselves in such an environment and we are surrounded by faith promoting stories that thrill us. We want to participate. We examine our feelings very closely to see if perhaps this or that subtle feeling might be the spirit. After all, it is a still small voice. If it is small and subtle then perhaps the slightest thing could be "it". What harm to describe it to another person in that way?

In short, while critics go to a lot of trouble to describe the ways a person could have a profound neurologically based experience and falsely interpret it as transcendent, I think in reality, a lot of what happens is closer to simple lying: All made possible because of a lesson learned over and over at the podium when Mom whispered in our ear the words we should use to bear our testimony. Over the years we just kept trying to make that original fib a little more authentic but all that happened was that habits were developed and rationalizations were made more sophisticated.

IMO

[Pahoran]

When a young child is encouraged to get up in church and say that they know the church is true what do we call it?

I wouldn't have called it lying. So that set the pattern that was internalized; such a thing just isn't lying.

I'll speak as if I were still in the church (technically true since I am a member of record).

From a very young age we find ourselves in such an environment and we are surrounded by faith promoting stories that thrill us. We want to participate. We examine our feelings very closely to see if perhaps this or that subtle feeling might be the spirit. After all, it is a still small voice. If it is small and subtle then perhaps the slightest thing could be "it". What harm to describe it to another person in that way?

In short, while critics go to a lot of trouble to describe the ways a person could have a profound neurologically based experience and falsely interpret it as transcendent, I think in reality, a lot of what happens is closer to simple lying: All made possible because of a lesson learned over and over at the podium when Mom whispered in our ear the words we should use to bear our testimony. Over the years we just kept trying to make that original fib a little more authentic but all that happened was that habits were developed and rationalizations were made more sophisticated.

IMO

And the just-so stories keep on coming.

So it's not lying -- it's just close to it. And instead of "the subconscious mind," the new get-out-of-jail-free card is "more sophisticated." If anything it's even more vague, but it has the advantage of making people want to seem "sophisticated" themselves by hastening to agree. Come on everyone, let's all lean back in our chairs and show how much smarter we are than those silly unsophisticated Mormons by quietly chortling together over their silly, childish "testimonies." Because we're so smart and sophisticated!

And thus we see that the "Great and Spacious Building" combines many forms of architecture. Including its very own ivory tower.

Regards,

Pahoran

[freedom_of_religion]

When a young child is encouraged to get up in church and say that they know the church is true what do we call it?

I wouldn't have called it lying. So that set the pattern that was internalized; such a thing just isn't lying.

I'll speak as if I were still in the church (technically true since I am a member of record).

From a very young age we find ourselves in such an environment and we are surrounded by faith promoting stories that thrill us. We want to participate. We examine our feelings very closely to see if perhaps this or that subtle feeling might be the spirit. After all, it is a still small voice. If it is small and subtle then perhaps the slightest thing could be "it". What harm to describe it to another person in that way?

In short, while critics go to a lot of trouble to describe the ways a person could have a profound neurologically based experience and falsely interpret it as transcendent, I think in reality, a lot of what happens is closer to simple lying: All made possible because of a lesson learned over and over at the podium when Mom whispered in our ear the words we should use to bear our testimony. Over the years we just kept trying to make that original fib a little more authentic but all that happened was that habits were developed and rationalizations were made more sophisticated.

IMO

The still small voice I can understand. I'm speaking more generally of physical manifestations and visitations. At least with my wife she's not just predjudiced against some LDS beliefs and doctrines, she doens't believe that God commanded Abraham to kill his son either. Another story I heard (I don't know that believe it or not) was that of our previous Bishops Son-in-Law. After my son died he called me up and told me about the death of his little girl. He said that one day on his way to work he looked over at the passenger seat and there was a woman sitting there. He immediately recognized her as his deceased daughter. She told him that she was ok and happy and disappeard. Was his mind playing tricks on him? I don't know, but I don't know of any reason he would lie about it either.

[freedom_of_religion]

When a young child is encouraged to get up in church and say that they know the church is true what do we call it?

I wouldn't have called it lying. So that set the pattern that was internalized; such a thing just isn't lying.

I'll speak as if I were still in the church (technically true since I am a member of record).

From a very young age we find ourselves in such an environment and we are surrounded by faith promoting stories that thrill us. We want to participate. We examine our feelings very closely to see if perhaps this or that subtle feeling might be the spirit. After all, it is a still small voice. If it is small and subtle then perhaps the slightest thing could be "it". What harm to describe it to another person in that way?

In short, while critics go to a lot of trouble to describe the ways a person could have a profound neurologically based experience and falsely interpret it as transcendent, I think in reality, a lot of what happens is closer to simple lying: All made possible because of a lesson learned over and over at the podium when Mom whispered in our ear the words we should use to bear our testimony. Over the years we just kept trying to make that original fib a little more authentic but all that happened was that habits were developed and rationalizations were made more sophisticated.

IMO

The still small voice I can understand. I'm speaking more generally of physical manifestations and visitations. At least with my wife she's not just predjudiced against some LDS beliefs and doctrines, she doens't believe that God commanded Abraham to kill his son either. Another story I heard (I don't know that believe it or not) was that of our previous Bishops Son-in-Law. After my son died he called me up and told me about the death of his little girl. He said that one day on his way to work he looked over at the passenger seat and there was a woman sitting there. He immediately recognized her as his deceased daughter. She told him that she was ok and happy and disappeard. Was his mind playing tricks on him? I don't know, but I don't know of any reason he would lie about it either.

[Tarski]

The still small voice I can understand. I'm speaking more generally of physical manifestations and visitations. At least with my wife she's not just predjudiced against some LDS beliefs and doctrines, she doens't believe that God commanded Abraham to kill his son either. Another story I heard (I don't know that believe it or not) was that of our previous Bishops Son-in-Law. After my son died he called me up and told me about the death of his little girl. He said that one day on his way to work he looked over at the passenger seat and there was a woman sitting there. He immediately recognized her as his deceased daughter. She told him that she was ok and happy and disappeard. Was his mind playing tricks on him? I don't know, but I don't know of any reason he would lie about it either.

I used to follow up on such stories. One time in particular, after a series of phone calls I tracked down the source of a story that my wife reported when she went to church without me. It was supposed to have happened to the person giving the talk. My wife said that everyone remarked how the room was filled with the spirit. she was full of the spirit when she testified to me that the story was true.

I called the guy who gave the talk. He gave me his source. My long series of phone calls ended with a little old lady in Arizona who could not recall where she heard the story.

It was a variation on the old disappearing hitchhiker story that has various versions (3 Nephites, Jesus, etc.).

Just another faith promoting rumor and a bunch of people who saw no harm in "owning" the story.

My mother used to check out the stories of the temples looking like they were on fire (it was reported that an authority said it was the Lord checking out his house). She was left disappointed.

How about the one where some Jesus freaks healed someone with a broken arm and when it was reported to the Mormon missionaries. They gave the guy a blessing and the arm was found to be broken again (guess it was an evil spirit).

Trust me, these things are not to be taken seriously.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Tarski

[Tarski]

And the just-so stories keep on coming.

So it's not lying -- it's just close to it. And instead of "the subconscious mind," the new get-out-of-jail-free card is "more sophisticated." If anything it's even more vague, but it has the advantage of making people want to seem "sophisticated" themselves by hastening to agree. Come on everyone, let's all lean back in our chairs and show how much smarter we are than those silly unsophisticated Mormons by quietly chortling together over their silly, childish "testimonies." Because we're so smart and sophisticated!

And thus we see that the "Great and Spacious Building" combines many forms of architecture. Including its very own ivory tower.

Regards,

Pahoran

Maybe I just should have left out the word "closer"?

If you think there is a sharp boundary between flat out lying, lying to oneself, role playing and being deluded, then fine. I'll say they all occur and not much else is needed in terms of explanation.

Just what is so implausible about the idea that being told to say you know something that you don't know from an early age could lead to a similar habit in adulthood imperceptively modified over time? Especllially when it seems like it is for a good cause that was endorsed by our oh-so-honest parents. They wouldn't lie would they? (it turns out that well, maybe they would).

Its plausibility is enhanced when we recall this advice given to hestitant missionaries:

"A testimony is found in the bearing of it."

(say it like you mean it and you will end up meaning it)

It kinda vaguely reminds me of psychologist induced false memory (oh that doesn't exist now does it?).

Was Martha lying or deluded? Perhaps nothing turns on settling that.

I am also reminded of a time I was dragged to a transcendental meditation center. I showed due skepticism and the guru tried to psych me out by looking deep into my eyes and saying "you know you know" in a slow mystical voice. I guess I was to imagine at that moment that I had suddenly realized that somehow I always knew that his profound story -whatever it was- was true with a capital T.

Unfortunately, human nature is vulnerable to such manipulations and it seems all too many are willing to take on the role of passing it on down the line. Are people that fall for this deluded, lying, lying to themselves?

I know I was both subject to manipulation and in turn a manipulator myself (missionary, promulgator of faith promoting rumors etc.).

We shy away from the "lying" option out of etiquette but certainly you of all people are not opposed to entertaining that possibility are you?

Edited February 3, 2012 by Tarski

[Stargazer]

Well, it sure cheers me up to know that every spiritual experience I have ever had was just tripe and self-delusion.

I am so glad you guys know so MUCH.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Stargazer

[Hamba Tuhan]

And other than being highly unlikely, you don't ascribe any further meaning to the dream story. What are we supposed to learn from this? What is the divine purpose?

In my case, I was perfectly content to delay serving a mission for another year right up until I experienced a night as a missionary. The peace and joy which came with the dream were beyond anything I'd experienced up to that point in time; consequently, upon waking, I was consumed with a desire to serve a mission in order to enjoy the blessings which my dream suggested would be mine. The desire was unshakable. In fact, from that moment forward, it grew and grew in me. Literally overnight, I went from planning to serve a mission someday to feeling I couldn't endure any delay. I knew I needed to leave soon. This desire mixed up with urgency were necessary, in my case, to compel me to re-approach my parents. My mission ended up taking 1/4 of their combined gross incomes each month at a time when they were struggling to support my sister, so it was a very big deal to them financially, and I knew it. But the Lord had made it clear to all three of us that it was His will, and, as He always does, He provided.

So that was the major 'divine purpose,' in my opinion: it got me on a mission when the Lord needed my particular skills in a particular location. What, however, was the purpose of the odd part of the dream? To me, it seemed then (and still seems) like discovering an artist's signature obscured in the corner of a painting. The Lord chose to sign His work. He didn't want me to be able to brush off the experience as just a coincidence: 'Telling them of things which must shortly come, that they might know and remember at the time of their coming that they had been made known unto them beforehand, to the intent that they might believe....'

In addition, the experience opened me up further to the possibility of dreams as channels of revelation--something, to be honest, which I'd scoffed at before since overwhelmingly my dreams had consisted of things like showering in public or being chased down an endless staircase by a giant Pac-Man. As a result, when I dreamt one Saturday night in the months following my mission that I'd spent the night in a dingy basement flat talking to one of the men I'd baptised, listening to him describe being seriously ill but grateful for the support he'd found in the gospel, I emailed him the next morning to see if he was OK. When he wrote back and told me that, although only 28 years old, he'd been diagnosed with cancer, I wasn't suprised. He said he'd determined not to tell me because he didn't want to worry me, but he was glad that the Lord had overridden that decision. His request when I asked what he wanted from me in addition to prayers was to see me one last time before he passed away, so I figured out a way to travel back to my mission to spend time with him. He was an investment banker and had lived in a beautiful penthouse flat when I'd taught him, but, when he found out I was coming, he gave me a new address. When I arrived, it was a dingy basement flat. The first night, we stayed up late as I listened to him tell me about the support he had found in the gospel to endure what he was going through.

These and other experiences prepared me for the Saturday night years later when I thought I dreamt that the grandfather of one of the women I had taught visited me in my bedroom. In our conversation, he thanked me for sharing the gospel with him. I pointed out to him that I hadn't, that I had shared the gospel with his granddaughter (incidentally, the same one whose mum had sold the house to the American rock star). He said, 'I know, but she has shared the gospel with me now, and I wanted to thank you.' The next morning, still feeling the peace of the experience, I sent off an email to the granddaughter to tell her about my experience. Sure enough, she wrote back to inform me that she'd gone to the Washington DC Temple with her ward that weekend, and the temple work for her grandfather had been completed during the day Saturday.

All just coincidences, of course. Or normal brain activity. Or something.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

I think in reality, a lot of what happens is closer to simple lying: All made possible because of a lesson learned over and over at the podium when Mom whispered in our ear the words we should use to bear our testimony. Over the years we just kept trying to make that original fib a little more authentic but all that happened was that habits were developed and rationalizations were made more sophisticated.

I know I was both subject to manipulation and in turn a manipulator myself (missionary, promulgator of faith promoting rumors etc.).

An interesting bit of bio. No wonder you've left the Church. You may want to be careful, however, when it comes to projecting your personal experiences onto others.

[Hamba Tuhan]

It is quite possible that the "warm feeling" I get is nothing more than my mind creating a natural emotion or it could be the Holy Ghost, I don't know how to tell the difference.

Act on it. Divine communications usually have content. When Joseph Smith thought he saw an angel in his bedroom at age 17, it could easily have been a dream. Occam's Razor would certainly suggest that conclusion. The problem is that, if young Joseph had never gone to the hill and pried up the rock, he never would have known how to tell the difference. Faith without works dies in large part because it's lacking in any evidence.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Trust me, these things are not to be taken seriously.

In other words: 'Don't believe anything anyone else tells you. They're all lying or deluded (and clearly not postgraduate students in neuroscience!). Me, however, you can trust. I don't lie, and I'm not deluded. I just know that everyone else does/is.'

FofR, I don't want you to just trust me (or anyone else). You can know for yourself. Remember that the word which is translated as 'faith' in the New Testament means in Greek both trust and loyalty, but we don't have faith in men. Place your trust in the Lord and stay loyal to Him, and He'll guide you.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Hamba Tuhan

[altersteve]

Trust me, these things are not to be taken seriously.

Okay, I trust you.

No, really.

LOL

[Hamba Tuhan]

Okay, I trust you.

No, really.

LOL

[Xander]

When a young child is encouraged to get up in church and say that they know the church is true what do we call it?

I prefer to call it conditioning.

When a young child is nudged up there while the parent whispers in his/her ear what to say verbatim, well that's taking it too far. And from what I understand, the Church has since discouraged parents from doing this. I haven't seen it in awhile, but I used to see it virtually every testimony Sunday in the 80's-90's.

And I don't think children are being lied to by their parents if the parents genuinely believe whatever falsehoods they're telling them.

But I do think it is silly the way LDS folks like to criticize the Catholic baptism, arguing that there is no way a baby can understand and accept something like the atonement. This is a favorite talking point for missionaries who want to convince people their previous baptism was invalid. But then they turn around and embrace the practice of baptizing eight year-old kids, as if this were really any different. We're talking about children who generally believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny, and afraid of the dark because there are monsters in the closet.

I can't think of a single life changing decision I'd leave up to an eight year old child.

Which reminds me, some apologists criticize former members for complaining about the fact that the Church doesn't tell them things that would otherwise result in them passing on baptism. They say things like, "no one was stopping you from doing your own research before you joined." Well, many of us joined at age eight for obvious reasons. I can't think of a single eight year old born and raised in an active Mormon family, passing up on baptism. Of course they are going to join. But just exactly what kind of research does one expect from a kid who is more likely to be playing his Nintendo DS than reading a book? Baptizing children in the Church and constantly conditioning them to believe they "know" the Church is true, is the best thing the Church has going for it.

[Xander]

Let me get to the point. All of the leaders and members alike (past and present) that have bore testimony of the church and said that they are certain of the truthfullness of the gospel. All of those that have claimed to have had (how do I put it?) a special witness or actually seen visions, angels, deceased loved ones, ect. The stories of angels attending the temple dedications. I recall a story of a man whose wife had died said that he spent an hour or so with her in the temple on their anniversary. The tons of witnesses of the restoration stories. Are all of these people lying? Delusional? My wife tends believe that they "truly belive" they witnessed something, but really didn't. I have personaly never seen, felt or heard anything, but can't get myself to believe that so many people would make stories up like this. Do those that have left the church doubt all of these witnesses? If no, how do you leave knowing that they are true?

I don't really concern myself with this question anymore. What matters to me is that I know these things are not true. What doesn't matter to me is why people claim they are. And I do not believe there are "tons" of claimed angelic appearances and such. The Mormon rumor mill is just that, and stories like these travel down the usual lines and like any other story, they are embellished. When interviewed by Larry King, Gordon B. Hinckley was asked something along these lines, and I can't recall what his exact response was, but it didn't involve visions of God or angels. If miracles occur, then they should be such that they can be verified for others to witness as well. I see no purpose for God to keep hiding himself from others in this way, only performing special miracles for select individuals when no one else can witness them.

Besides, I've seen people get up with a sincere face and tears running down their cheeks, claiming some of the most ridiculous things happened to them as "spiritual experiences." One return missionary spoke at his homecoming in California, and told us a story about how his companion was saved from gunfire because his garments repelled the bullets. There were holes in his suit and shirt, but not the garments. Uh huh, right.

In Spain we heard an extremely weird story about a kid who was born somewhat deformed. He was born with only half an arm and no hand. The father was upset because kids at school were making fun of him and so he and his wife decided to pray about it. He said that days later he and his wife noticed that their son's arm was a little longer than it was before. He believed God was going to make his arm grown out, along with a hand. My companion started laughing when I translated for him what was just said.

We also heard stories from ex-Catholic Mormons in Spain who testified with the same level of conviction and sincerity, that they were visited by the virgin Mary! You still get Mormons in Latin countries claiming visitations from her.

Now isn't it odd that Mary only appears to Mormons who grew up in a Catholic culture? What is the most likely explanation here? Obviously, that these people come up with experiences based on their own cultural influences. And in many cases, they say things they want to believe and things they think their audience wants to hear.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I prefer to call it conditioning.

When a young child is nudged up there while the parent whispers in his/her ear what to say verbatim, well that's taking it too far. And from what I understand, the Church has since discouraged parents from doing this. I haven't seen it in awhile, but I used to see it virtually every testimony Sunday in the 80's-90's.

And I don't think children are being lied to by their parents if the parents genuinely believe whatever falsehoods they're telling them.

Why do you qualify your remark with an insulting remark? Because you believe it to be a "falsehood" it simply is?

[Tarski]

You can know for yourself.

and I do.