So, Are They All Lying? Or Just Delusional?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I used to follow up on such stories. One time in particular, after a series of phone calls I tracked down the source of a story that my wife reported when she went to church without me. It was supposed to have happened to the person giving the talk. My wife said that everyone remarked how the room was filled with the spirit. she was full of the spirit when she testified to me that the story was true.

I called the guy who gave the talk. He gave me his source. My long series of phone calls ended with a little old lady in Arizona who could not recall where she heard the story.

It was a variation on the old disappearing hitchhiker story that has various versions (3 Nephites, Jesus, etc.).

Just another faith promoting rumor and a bunch of people who saw no harm in "owning" the story.

My mother used to check out the stories of the temples looking like they were on fire (it was reported that an authority said it was the Lord checking out his house). She was left disappointed.

How about the one where some Jesus freaks healed someone with a broken arm and when it was reported to the Mormon missionaries. They gave the guy a blessing and the arm was found to be broken again (guess it was an evil spirit).

Trust me, these things are not to be taken seriously.

So what if you have experienced it yourself...source me Bill Lee. Not your story but my own?

[Craig Paxton]

Are all of these people lying? Delusional?

Throughout history there have been dozens and dozens of individuals who have claimed to see Angels, The Virgin Mary, Christ, dead relatives etc...these were non-Mormon's....were these people lying? Were they delusional?

Seeing dead people is not unique to Mormonism...it seems to be a common phenomenon amoung some humans in general. Joseph Smith claimed to see dead people all the time. The human brain is a complex organ and quite capable of allowing the human body to expereince things that are not real.

So while I tend to believe that these experiences may in every sense be real to the person experienceing them...I do not beleive that dead people return to life once dead for Mormons or non-Mormons.

[cinepro]

The stories of angels attending the temple dedications. I recall a story of a man whose wife had died said that he spent an hour or so with her in the temple on their anniversary. The tons of witnesses of the restoration stories. Are all of these people lying? Delusional?

Perhaps this discussion should have started with a very important question:

If someone makes a supernatural claim, is it possible to tell whether they are being "accurate", lying or delusional?

If so, how?

Take three men. Ted, Jack and John. Each claim a similar supernatural experience. One actually had such an experience, one is lying (he knows he didn't have such an experience but insists he did), and the third is "delusional" (he didn't have such an experience, but he honestly thinks he did).

Is there a reliable way to tell which is which?

Edited February 3, 2012 by cinepro

[Hamba Tuhan]

You can know for yourself.

and I do.

What you know, by your own admission, is that you spent your Church life living a lie, merely repeating what others had 'conditioned' you to say without any foundation in your own experiences. I fully trust you that this is an accurate report of your personal life. It is not, however, an accurate account of mine.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Hamba Tuhan

[KevinG]

Scientists who attribute all human experience to the brain are confusing the stimulus with the reaction.

Observers who attribute the Mormon experience to conditioning fail to account for conversion.

It is a very provincial observer who takes his own experience and generalizes it to cover all people as though life were a closed system.

Edited February 4, 2012 by DaddyG

[Xander]

Why do you qualify your remark with an insulting remark? Because you believe it to be a "falsehood" it simply is?

It isn't an insult to reject truth claims you know to be false. Much of what Mormon parents tell their kids are in fact falsehoods, yes. And children will accept them uncritically for the same reasons they accept the existence of Santa. Because they want to believe it. Mormonism and its plan of salvation is really something along the lines of a fairy tale that doesn't really make a lot of sense to grown, educated adults hearing it for the first time. But why wouldn't a child love the idea of eternal security in the arms of his or her family? Together forever is something that sounds great when you're a kid, and it sounds really great if you're a parent who just lost a family member. But ultimately what are we talking about? The Saturday's Warrior play and movie is logically incoherent, but it is generally accepted as realistic among Mormon kids. I mean in what sense can anyone really be "sealed" to their kids? In heaven, are we all going to be together as a family unit, or are we going to progress as gods taking care of our own spirit children, etc etc..? How can it be both? And what age will your kids be in heaven? As you remembered them when they were 12? 3? 27? 45? Remember, we're all going to be glorified humanoids in heaven and the women will be beautiful and the men will all be handsome. So what age do you think you will you appear to your kids? If everyone appears to be the same perfect age in heaven, then in what sense will anyone really look at one another as though relating to their former father, mother, younger sister, baby brother, etc etc? The Saturday's Warrior image of children and elderly folks existing as such in the preexistence and heaven, doesn't make sense. The whole idea behind family sealings becomes less and less coherent the older you get. It makes no sense at all. Now I'd sometimes love it if my daughter would just never grow up, because as each day passes, I feel like I'm losing my baby girl to life. She is becoming a young lady right before my eyes. And however much I could imagine "heaven" being with her in such a state, and me taking care of her forever as her father and guardian, a heaven with all humans in mind would naturally consider her progression just as much as mine. In the Mormon view, I will be resurrected in my most perfect form as will she. We can only assume this would be something between the 25-35 age range. In what sense would I remain her father in such a hereafter? In what sense would she be my daughter? She'll presumably be a Goddess married to another man who became a God, and producing her own spirit children, right?

[why me]

I guess Why Me and I might have been on the same train of thought today. A friend of ours posted on Facebook a link that he liked, Recovering Mormons or something similar, I don't know the exact site. The top discussion was what was the straw that broke and made you leave the LDS church? I know his was church history (BoA, BoM, Polygamy, ect.), on a recent post I commented on his and his wife's falling away. As my wife has the same issues and is holding on by a string herself I read all of the posts and a lot of them point to the same thing.

Let me get to the point. All of the leaders and members alike (past and present) that have bore testimony of the church and said that they are certain of the truthfullness of the gospel. All of those that have claimed to have had (how do I put it?) a special witness or actually seen visions, angels, deceased loved ones, ect. The stories of angels attending the temple dedications. I recall a story of a man whose wife had died said that he spent an hour or so with her in the temple on their anniversary. The tons of witnesses of the restoration stories. Are all of these people lying? Delusional? My wife tends believe that they "truly belive" they witnessed something, but really didn't. I have personaly never seen, felt or heard anything, but can't get myself to believe that so many people would make stories up like this. Do those that have left the church doubt all of these witnesses? If no, how do you leave knowing that they are true?

This is true. Many have had strong spiritual witnesses of the truthfulness of the lds church. I know that I did. However, what becomes important is to do a good read of the history of the lds church as found in bushman in rough stone rolling. It is quite a history and one that any member can be proud of. Also, the experiences of the witnesses is something wondeful and yet baffling since many left the church but yet could not leave it alone.

Some joined off shoots. But their experiences around the book of mormon were quite convincing for them so much so, that they needed to bear their testimony on their deathbeds. There is going to be some apostacy occuring these days. It is natural because of all the hate out there. And it was no different than in the early days of the church. Much apostacy then too. But when one investigates the early beginnings of the lds church, one can not help but be impressed with Joseph Smith, the witnesses, the whitmers' mother and emma, not to mention the mother of JS. All had tremendous experiences centered around the gospel. And may I add the women who agreed to be sealed to JS? Many also had a strong confirmation about the principle before saying yes. How to explain it? These experiences were not warm fuzzies.

[why me]

I guess Why Me and I might have been on the same train of thought today. A friend of ours posted on Facebook a link that he liked, Recovering Mormons or something similar, I don't know the exact site. The top discussion was what was the straw that broke and made you leave the LDS church? I know his was church history (BoA, BoM, Polygamy, ect.), on a recent post I commented on his and his wife's falling away. As my wife has the same issues and is holding on by a string herself I read all of the posts and a lot of them point to the same thing.

Let me get to the point. All of the leaders and members alike (past and present) that have bore testimony of the church and said that they are certain of the truthfullness of the gospel. All of those that have claimed to have had (how do I put it?) a special witness or actually seen visions, angels, deceased loved ones, ect. The stories of angels attending the temple dedications. I recall a story of a man whose wife had died said that he spent an hour or so with her in the temple on their anniversary. The tons of witnesses of the restoration stories. Are all of these people lying? Delusional? My wife tends believe that they "truly belive" they witnessed something, but really didn't. I have personaly never seen, felt or heard anything, but can't get myself to believe that so many people would make stories up like this. Do those that have left the church doubt all of these witnesses? If no, how do you leave knowing that they are true?

This is true. Many have had strong spiritual witnesses of the truthfulness of the lds church. I know that I did. However, what becomes important is to do a good read of the history of the lds church as found in bushman in rough stone rolling. It is quite a history and one that any member can be proud of. Also, the experiences of the witnesses is something wondeful and yet baffling since many left the church but yet could not leave it alone.

Some joined off shoots. But their experiences around the book of mormon were quite convincing for them so much so, that they needed to bear their testimony on their deathbeds. There is going to be some apostacy occuring these days. It is natural because of all the hate out there. And it was no different than in the early days of the church. Much apostacy then too. But when one investigates the early beginnings of the lds church, one can not help but be impressed with Joseph Smith, the witnesses, the whitmers' mother and emma, not to mention the mother of JS. All had tremendous experiences centered around the gospel. And may I add the women who agreed to be sealed to JS? Many also had a strong confirmation about the principle before saying yes. How to explain it? These experiences were not warm fuzzies.

[why me]

Well, it sure cheers me up to know that every spiritual experience I have ever had was just tripe and self-delusion.

I am so glad you guys know so MUCH.

It is amazing, isn't it? But you need to understand that for those who left the lds church they must downplay their spiritual expeiences by comparing it to going to a ballgame or a circus etc. It is apart of the separation process. I find it unfortunate that many do this. No reason to attack their spiritual expeiences because one wishes to disbelieve.

[why me]

I prefer to call it conditioning.

When a young child is nudged up there while the parent whispers in his/her ear what to say verbatim, well that's taking it too far. And from what I understand, the Church has since discouraged parents from doing this. I haven't seen it in awhile, but I used to see it virtually every testimony Sunday in the 80's-90's.

And I don't think children are being lied to by their parents if the parents genuinely believe whatever falsehoods they're telling them.

I actually have not seen this done in a long time. I think that parents who do this think that it is cute to have their child do it. But it has been many years since I have seen it. Also, some children want to copy their parents which is quite normal. I would rather have them copy this behavior then picking up a beer and having a swig. But it isn't conditioning at all. It is just being a parent.

[why me]

When a young child is encouraged to get up in church and say that they know the church is true what do we call it?

I wouldn't have called it lying. So that set the pattern that was internalized; such a thing just isn't lying.

I'll speak as if I were still in the church (technically true since I am a member of record).

From a very young age we find ourselves in such an environment and we are surrounded by faith promoting stories that thrill us. We want to participate. We examine our feelings very closely to see if perhaps this or that subtle feeling might be the spirit. After all, it is a still small voice. If it is small and subtle then perhaps the slightest thing could be "it". What harm to describe it to another person in that way?

In short, while critics go to a lot of trouble to describe the ways a person could have a profound neurologically based experience and falsely interpret it as transcendent, I think in reality, a lot of what happens is closer to simple lying: All made possible because of a lesson learned over and over at the podium when Mom whispered in our ear the words we should use to bear our testimony. Over the years we just kept trying to make that original fib a little more authentic but all that happened was that habits were developed and rationalizations were made more sophisticated.

IMO

I think that you are putting too much into it. And you are rationalizing people's experiences. I think that it is a natural process of the spirit testifying of the truthfulness of the gospel. How do we rationalzie the witnesses away? Well, you see they wanted to see and they wanted to touch and so, they saw and touched something that they needed to believe in and kept this belief tjhroughout their lives.

That actually doesn't work well because if you notice on this board and other boards people rationalize their experiences all the time. And the same for the witnesses except that their experience was so strong that not one could rationalize it away.

[Xander]

I actually have not seen this done in a long time. I think that parents who do this think that it is cute to have their child do it. But it has been many years since I have seen it. Also, some children want to copy their parents which is quite normal. I would rather have them copy this behavior then picking up a beer and having a swig. But it isn't conditioning at all. It is just being a parent.

This is a truly convoluted non sequitur. Whispering testimonies into your kids ears is better than them drinking beer, therefore it isn't conditioning!?!?!

What the heck?

Following that logic, having sex as a teen is better than murdering one's family, so maybe that isn't fornication after all?

What LDS parents do is a textbook example of conditioning. In fact, it would have been called brainwashing back when brainwashing was believed to exist. It is one of the reasons people had a tendency to look at Mormonism as a cult. Mind control is an element of cultish behavior.

Conditioning is precisely what it is, and it is what the Church expects parents to do in order to secure future generations of faithful tithe payers. They simply cannot rely on the missionary program for this. Without funding, the corporation cannot thrive.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Xander

[why me]

Following that logic, having sex as a teen is better than murdering one's family, so maybe that isn't fornication after all?

What LDS parents do is a textbook example of conditioning. In fact, it would have been called brainwashing back when brainwashing was believed to exist. It is one of the reasons people had a tendency to look at Mormonism as a cult. Mind control is an element of cultish behavior.

Conditioning is precisely what it is, and it is what the Church expects parents to do in order to secure future generations of faithful tithe payers. They simply cannot rely on the missionary program for this. Without funding, the corporation cannot thrive.

I remember seeing it happen in the 70's and 80's but not recently or even in the distant past. I am not sure if many lds parents do this anymore. I just see parents give their testimony and the youngest children are usually in their youth. But no kids giving testimonies. Now if a child wants to give his or her testimony because they want to, well...what should a parent say to the child?

[Hamba Tuhan]

What LDS parents do is a textbook example of conditioning. In fact, it would have been called brainwashing back when brainwashing was believed to exist. It is one of the reasons people had a tendency to look at Mormonism as a cult. Mind control is an element of cultish behavior.

Conditioning is precisely what it is, and it is what the Church expects parents to do in order to secure future generations of faithful tithe payers. They simply cannot rely on the missionary program for this. Without funding, the corporation cannot thrive.

You forgot to mention what happens to the problematic children who hold out against all this brainwashing/conditioning and fail to faithfully fund the corporation. If they're little enough, we eat them. If they're too big for that, we simply add them to the Danite hit list maintained in each bishop's office and allow those who received handgun training in the MTC to take care of the problem.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Hamba Tuhan

[Mariner]

Hamba Tuhan,

Despite your attempt to deflect it with humor (or an attempt at humor) Xander has a valid point.

When I hear my grandchildren sing about "Book of Mormon" stories, I wonder how long they will be before they understand that Book of Mormon stories are just that, fictional stories about imaginary people. I wonder how much their trust in the Church that taught them these untruths (and in the parents who took them there) will be damaged when they finally figure it out.

When I was growing up in the Church, one could say that the jury was still out on the Lehite migration. It could be said that the jury was out on the Book of Abraham. Those options are now off the table. No credible scientist could now possibly support either one of these books as having a scintilla of truth to them. Neither can possibly be what the LDS Church claims. It will not be long until my internet savvy grandchildren will be forced to deal with the fact of the fiction of the LDS scriptures.

Sam Harris was quite right in Letter to a Christian Nation when he described, in some detail, the extent to which religions are obliged to rely on lies.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Mariner

[Storm Rider]

Hamba Tuhan,

Despite your attempt to deflect it with humor (or an attempt at humor) Xander has a valid point.

When I hear my grandchildren sing about "Book of Mormon" stories, I wonder how long they will be before they understand that Book of Mormon stories are just that, fictional stories about imaginary people. I wonder how much their trust in the Church that taught them these untruths (and in the parents who took them there) will be damaged when they finally figure it out.

When I was growing up in the Church, one could say that the jury was still out on the Lehite migration. It could be said that the jury was out on the Book of Abraham. Those options are now off the table. No credible scientist could now possibly support either one of these books as having a scintilla of truth to them. Neither can possibly be what the LDS Church claims. It will not be long until my internet savvy grandchildren will be forced to deal with the fact of the fiction of the LDS scriptures.

Sam Harris was quite right in Letter to a Christian Nation when he described, in some detail, the extent to which religions are obliged to rely on lies.

So, to accomodate your poistion not to pass on lies to our children we should not:

1. Tell them Martin Luther King was a good man
   
2. George Washington did not chop down the cherry tree
   
3. The Revolutionary War was really just a bunch of hoodlums in revolt against their rightful King
   
4. Jesus was nothing but a Rabbi, and a rather insignificant one at that
   
5. God is the opiate of the people
   
6. FDR was a socialist
   
7. Captialism is the misguided economic system of the rich
   
8. All soldiers are really just killers
   

We should also institute a police force that would ensure that every parent guides their children in truth, absolute truth, as judged by an enlightened committee of ???; I am not quite sure but it can't have anyone with any form of religious upbringing, educated at strictly liberal institutions, and each member of the committee should be vetted every year for having proper thougths and ideas.

My what an noble nation we would have, but I still have figured out who these supper intelligent people are going to be. Is that something that you would be in charge of or who exactly meets your standard?

BTW, there have been societies that quickly came and went that had similar ideas. They don't seem to stay around very long. There would be some wisdom to be gained to understand why.

[Mariner]

So, to accomodate your poistion not to pass on lies to our children we should not:

1. Tell them Martin Luther King was a good man
   
2. George Washington did not chop down the cherry tree
   
3. The Revolutionary War was really just a bunch of hoodlums in revolt against their rightful King
   
4. Jesus was nothing but a Rabbi, and a rather insignificant one at that
   
5. God is the opiate of the people
   
6. FDR was a socialist
   
7. Captialism is the misguided economic system of the rich
   
8. All soldiers are really just killers
   

Strom Rider,

Your list contains assertions that can be considered a matter of opinion. There are credible data that could be interpreted as supporting each assertion, and there are credible data to the contrary. With the possible exception of George Washington's unfortunate cherry tree, evidence would allow reasonable people to either agree or disagree with your assertions, and have credible evidence to back their position.

Such is not the case with the LDS scriptures. Truth claims made in and about these scriptures can be demonstrated, beyond any reasonable doubt, to be not true. While this might not have been the case in the 19th Century, it is certainly the case now.

I do not want my grandchildren growing up believing that the ancestors of Native Americans were Hebrews who came to the New World on a boat in 600 BC and were later cursed with a curse of blackness because of their iniquity. I do not want them believing that African Americans, including the President of the United States, bear the curse of Cain, when it can be proven that such an individual never existed.

I do not want my grandchidren to believe that an Egyptian Breathing Permit of Hor can be translated in any rational way to yield the Kolob cosmology, or that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice. Science has shown all of these assertions to be false.

I don't want my grandchildren taught these things because I have seen the anguish that my wife, who was born into the Church, went through when she finally figured out that these doctrines and teachings were lies. I have seen the damage done to my business partner's family when their son came out as gay after the honorable completion of his mission.

Your trivial and irrelevant examples really don't even address the issue, let alone help the situation. They simply illustrate that you either do not understand what is going on here, or cannot appreciate its significance.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Mariner

[Storm Rider]

Strom Rider,

Your list contains assertions that can be considered a matter of opinion. There are credible data that could be interpreted as supporting each assertion, and there are credible data to the contrary. With the possible exception of George Washington's unfortunate cherry tree, evidence would allow reasonable people to either agree or disagree with your assertions, and have credible evidence to back their position.

Such is not the case with the LDS scriptures. Truth claims made in and about these scriptures can be demonstrated, beyond any reasonable doubt, to be not true. While this might not have been the case in the 19th Century, it is certainly the case now.

I do not want my grandchildren growing up believing that the ancestors of Native Americans were Hebrews who came to the New World on a boat in 600 BC and were later cursed with a curse of blackness because of their iniquity. I do not want them believing that African Americans, including the President of the United States, bear the curse of Cain, when it can be proven that such an individual never existed.

I do not want my grandchidren to believe that an Egyptian Breathing Permit of Hor can be translated in any rational way to yield the Kolob cosmology, or that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice. Science has shown all of these assertions to be false.

I don't want my grandchildren taught these things because I have seen the anguish that my wife, who was born into the Church, went through when she finally figured out that these doctrines and teachings were lies. I have seen the damage done to my business partner's family when their son came out as gay after the honorable completion of his mission.

Your trivial and irrelevant examples really don't even address the issue, let alone help the situation. They simply illustrate that you either do not understand what is going on here, or cannot appreciate its significance.

I reject your proposal that individuals cannot read the Book of Mormon and not be benefited. It is arrongant to think that you, your friends, or anyone else can dictate the benefit of the Book of Mormon or any other book of scripture. In fact, it is the very height of arrogance to propose that LDS parents are somehow doing something wrong by teaching their religion and cuture to their children. Who gets to decide what should be taught and what is acceptable?

Here is a clue: don't friggin teach your children, your grandchildren, the neighbors children or anyone else anything about Mormonism. I the entire proposal that LDS are doing something wrong. I reject using bad examples as if LDS have a corner on the market of making bad choices. I reject the entire premise as baseless and nothing more than individual whining that the world does not revolve around them and their desires.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

It isn't an insult to reject truth claims you know to be false. Much of what Mormon parents tell their kids are in fact falsehoods, yes.

And what are these falsehoods that we tell our children? Also the insult was; your nailing of the door shut on the idea that it is a falsehood, because that is the conclusion you have reached. Are we to accept that it is false because you say so? I have no problem with you rejecting the message of the LDS Church, just the arrogance you express when telling everyone else they are wrong for believing.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

What LDS parents do is a textbook example of conditioning. In fact, it would have been called brainwashing back when brainwashing was believed to exist. It is one of the reasons people had a tendency to look at Mormonism as a cult. Mind control is an element of cultish behavior.

I see now we are a cult and delusional, anything else. Lets put aside the experiences of "leaders" whom you think are running a con, what of our own experiences?

[Mariner]

I reject your proposal that individuals cannot read the Book of Mormon and not be benefited. It is arrongant to think that you, your friends, or anyone else can dictate the benefit of the Book of Mormon or any other book of scripture. In fact, it is the very height of arrogance to propose that LDS parents are somehow doing something wrong by teaching their religion and cuture to their children. Who gets to decide what should be taught and what is acceptable?

Here is a clue: don't friggin teach your children, your grandchildren, the neighbors children or anyone else anything about Mormonism. I the entire proposal that LDS are doing something wrong. I reject using bad examples as if LDS have a corner on the market of making bad choices. I reject the entire premise as baseless and nothing more than individual whining that the world does not revolve around them and their desires.

Storm Rider,

What is wrong with one's preference that their grandchildren be taught the truth about the origins of Native Americans, the reason for increased melanin content and dispersal in native Africans and African Americans, and the biological basis of homosexuality?

Why must the LDS Church continue to insist that their unfounded and demonstrably false teachings and doctrines on these issues are true?

Does it not occur to them that LDS children will be taught the evidence based truth regarding these issues anyway in the course of a quality educational experience?

Why continue to suffer the loss of credibility and trust that accrues from the continued preaching and teaching of these falsified 19th Century beliefs?

[thesometimesaint]

Mariner:

The twentieth century should disabuse you of the idea that Atheism is anything more than homicidal cult.

[Mariner]

Mariner:

The twentieth century should disabuse you of the idea that Atheism is anything more than homicidal cult.

thesometimesaint,

Not that again. Do I need to remind you that Hitler was a Catholic?

As a smart guy who works in the social sciences, you should know better than to make comments like this anyway.

If you look up the numbers, you will find that atheists and agnostics are, in general, better educated and less likely to be imprisoned for any reason than their religious counterparts. Doesn't sound like a homicidal cult to me.

If you look a little further, you will find that atheists and agnostics (self identified as having no religious affiliation) constitute the fastest growing cohort in the US by declaration of belief (or lack thereof) - by a lot.

All of this aside, what do the beliefs, or lack thereof, of atheists have to do with the fact that the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham have been demonstrated to be fraudulent and therefore should not be taught as truth to anyone, especially children?

I have nothing against teaching Book of Mormon stories to kids, so long as the kids who are forced to learn them understand that they are just that - stories, like the religion themed stories of C.S. Lewis.

[Pahoran]

thesometimesaint,

Not that again. Do I need to remind you that Hitler was a Catholic?

A lapsed Catholic. Get it right.

As a smart guy who works in the social sciences, you should know better than to make comments like this anyway.

If you look up the numbers, you will find that atheists and agnostics are, in general, better educated and less likely to be imprisoned for any reason than their religious counterparts. Doesn't sound like a homicidal cult to me.

If you look a little further, you will find that atheists and agnostics (self identified as having no religious affiliation) constitute the fastest growing cohort in the US by declaration of belief (or lack thereof) - by a lot.

All of this aside, what do the beliefs, or lack thereof, of atheists have to do with the fact that the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham have been demonstrated to be fraudulent

"Demonstrated" by whom?

Thank you for bearing your un-testimony to us; but it seems a little hypocritical for someone of your professed ideology to declare belief in a proposition that has not been proved, but is only accepted on faith.

and therefore should not be taught as truth to anyone, especially children?

I have nothing against teaching Book of Mormon stories to kids, so long as the kids who are forced to learn them understand that they are just that - stories, like the religion themed stories of C.S. Lewis.

And you would enforce this how: by legislation?

Should the homes of believers be subjected to electronic surveillance to ensure that they are not trying to teach their children that there really was a Lehi colony? What should be done to any parents who offend against your bigoted intolerance? Should they be sent to political re-education camps, Comrade?

Regards,

Pahoran

[thesometimesaint]

Mariner:

Stalin, Mao, Poh Pot. None of them were religious, but they were determined Atheists.

BTW. Hitlers' only god was Hitler. Tojos' only god was the Emperor.