So, Are They All Lying? Or Just Delusional?

[Mariner]

There is no doubt in my mind that the Spirit works through many avenues. The truth claims of the LDS church do not need to be false for God to work with all of His children on the levels that they each need them to work. All cats are mammals does not mean that all mammals are cats. The validation of the truthfulness of the Gospel is a matter between each individual and God. I don't count a Buddhist's uplifting religious experience, for example, as evidence that Buddhism is the right way to go, but I do recognize that Buddhism has a certain amount of truthiness and is beneficial to its adherents generally.

Mariner, I know where you're coming from, and the fact that you do not believe does not mean that what you do not believe in is also false. Your doubt does not invalidate a single thing. Truth stands on its own, regardless.

Fair enough.

However, as is the case for those who believe that the Earth is regularly visited by aliens from outer space, or are sure that sasquatch exists without evidence, one should stop every now and then and ask why there is no credible physical evidence to support such beliefs. When such evidence is found to be lacking, then one must consider the alternative explanation that these experiences are simply products of the neurological functioning of a brain that has been conditioned to expect and even anticipate these kinds of perceptions.

The fact that these same experiences can be induced by both electromagnetic and chemical manipulations of an organ that functions on electrical impulses and associated release and transport of chemicals should at least give one pause, don't you think?

Edited February 1, 2012 by Mariner

[Senator]

When you say this that tells me that you lost.

Ok

[Senator]

Your not very good at this, are you?

What degrading name do you have for me?

[BlueDreams]

Mariner:

1. What constitutes physical evidence?

2. Considering alternative explanations is great, but what makes them any more plausible when studying neurological functioning cannot prove causation of phenomena?

3. Where is the evidence that these "same" experiences can be induced? And though it gives one similar senses, what does that prove?

I'm asking because, theres a number of underlying assumptions that I don't see much validation for in this post. People have had spiritual experiences that have been validated within their own lives. Besides it assumes that the physical world is all that really matters in the end....which is just a belief, not actually substantial. Neuroscience has shown various correlations, but correlations never equals causation. And besides I find it mildly degrading to have spiritual experiences be placed on the same level as looking for big foot.

With luv,

BD

[Stargazer]

Fair enough.

However, as is the case for those who believe that the Earth is regularly visited by aliens from outer space, or are sure that sasquatch exists without evidence, one should stop every now and then and ask why there is no credible physical evidence to support such beliefs. When such evidence is found to be lacking, then one must consider the alternative explanation that these experiences are simply products of the neurological functioning of a brain that has been conditioned to expect and even anticipate these kinds of perceptions.

The fact that these same experiences can be induced by both electromagnetic and chemical manipulations of an organ that functions on electrical impulses and associated release and transport of chemicals should at least give one pause, don't you think?

The fact that some experiences can be so induced doesn't give me pause so much as it tells me that our brains were designed to be able to receive such impressions as directed from outside of them.

If you read my earlier post, you may recall that I had an unmistakeable impression that I was to be called to a position of responsibility, and that this impression was later confirmed by being so called. Perhaps you would choose to believe that all of this occurred because self-generated electrical impulses in my brain triggered a cascade of chemical release and, perhaps, shall we take this into the realm of particle physics, caused quantum entrainment of a particle that subsequently hit the stake president two weeks later and caused his brain to generate electrical impulses and chemical releases, making him call me to the position?

Hmmm. A bit too Rube Goldberg for my tastes, but nevertheless I shall consider this for a moment. <tick, tick, tick>

Nah. Occam's Razor alone would cause me to reject the scenario above as not the simplest explanation of what happened. I find that the simplest explanation is that God wanted me to be called to that position and inspired the stake president to make the call.

But if you prefer a more convoluted explanation that leaves God out of it, I shan't argue with you about it. The fact that I was there and it happened to me does tend to make me believe my own experience over any attempt to ascribe it to random physical phenomena.

[Darth_Bill]

I once had that impression. Very strong, to the point of "I need to learn Spanish, soon." Didn't happen, which I am happy about. So, not sure what to make of that either. Guess I just can't interpret my own spirituality.

On the other side, my wife anticipated her call to be the RS president. Granted, she was on her way to the interview and they asked I come to...not sure that qualifies either. But still, a person is left to their own experiences.

[CV75]

Do those that have left the church doubt all of these witnesses? If no, how do you leave knowing that they are true?

I think this why we are encouraged to seek our own testimony and not live off borrowed light. I think those that leave the Church on the basis of witness alone a) doubt or don’t believe what others claim; b) also doubt or don’t believe their own witnesses of a similar nature; c) haven’t obtained or maintained any kind of witness sufficient to compete with something else more to their liking.

The Lord and the Church have mechanisms for those who stumble for lack of truth, those who seek but know not where to find the truth, and those who have seared their conscience. They almost always involve the faithful reaching out to the rest but ultimately each person must make his own decision.

I have also seen cases where people leave the Church even though they beleive others' or their own witneses are true.

[wenglund]

We rely on our own experiences, for that is really all we have. Otherwise, those hindu mystics have some compelling arguments too. I've had spiritual experiences, but none point to a point that the church is what it claims. It tells me there probably is a God and that he knows of my existance, but because I received direction in my life, good or ill, doesn't mean that the church is true or false. On my mission I was told to stay after a particularly trying time. When expressed to my Bishop that was evidence that the church was true. For me, I stayed and eventually things worked out better and differently than I contemplated when I was going to leave. Even then, I'm open to the idea that my subconscious was possibly looking out for me and manifested itself before I made a mistake while in my grief.

You evidently have great faith in your subconscious.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Darth_Bill]

You evidently have great faith in your subconscious.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Possibly. At the time, I felt it was the Lord, and even though I didn't want to stay, I did. If you want to call that faith in my subconscious, then I'm good with it. If it was the Lord, I'm good with that too. I'm sure he'll be much more merciful than we are to each other.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Darth_Bill

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Your not very good at this, are you?

Got to be better than me...he spells correctly,

Edited February 1, 2012 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[Eldwynn]

It's unfortunate that everyone isn't a graduate student in Neuroscience.

But this problem has more or less been solved. I think the biggest issue about "personal experience" (be it hearing a voice that you will be called to a position or whatever) is that science actually has shown that such "revelations" are a normal function of the brain.

Your brain evolved over hundreds of millions of years. What makes our brains different than the rest of mammals? Well for starters, we have this incredibly large frontal cortex that allows us to make decisions, process information in real time, and choose what we attend to. This evolution happened over a short period of time- just a few million years.

The rest of our brain hasn't gone away though! When you get a "flash" of insight, that's simply other brain regions that solved the problem for you without you realizing it. Why did the guy have a feeling that he would be called to stake president? Because it was obvious based on his actions and hard work in the community. His brain knew "this is what a stake president looked like" and "Hey I look like this" and did all the math without him realizing it. It's sad that you aren't giving your unconscious mind the credit it deserves

When you fall asleep with a question (such as "should I serve a mission" or "What is the structure of benzene") your brain works on the problem as you sleep- we know this to be true. This happens across cultures, across religions etc. etc.

If you think such dreams and flashes of insight are simply the work of god, then you need to explain why people have them to do horrible and very nonreligious things. Do you think God influences a serial killer to have a "eureka" moment on the best way to make a human being suffer? It's a very serious questions.

In short, we are left with two hypotheses. I think we can reject the supernatural (which has no observable reason to believe) and accept the perfectly reasonable explanation that science has given us.

Science works, you monkeys! People aren't lying or delusional. They are ignorant to how the brain functions, have imperfect memories of events, exaggerate for social reasons, and are just generally wrong about most everything.

This is why experiments and analyzations made by a LOT of scientists is better trusted than a single person.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Eldwynn

[Mariner]

Mariner:

1. What constitutes physical evidence?

2. Considering alternative explanations is great, but what makes them any more plausible when studying neurological functioning cannot prove causation of phenomena?

3. Where is the evidence that these "same" experiences can be induced? And though it gives one similar senses, what does that prove?

I'm asking because, theres a number of underlying assumptions that I don't see much validation for in this post. People have had spiritual experiences that have been validated within their own lives. Besides it assumes that the physical world is all that really matters in the end....which is just a belief, not actually substantial. Neuroscience has shown various correlations, but correlations never equals causation. And besides I find it mildly degrading to have spiritual experiences be placed on the same level as looking for big foot.

With luv,

BD

BD,

Just dropped in for a minute and don't have time to respond fully now. I also see that a neurosciences grad student has posted on the thread (see post above). Since he and I are both trained in the neurosciences, his responses will be similar to mine, and so I won't spend too much time on detail.

Very briefly, in response to your 3 questions:

1. Physical evidence would include genuine artifacts for which the spiritual experience is the most likely explanation (a gold plate or two inscribed with reformed Egyptian would do nicely, for example), scientific or technical measurements that could only be explained by the spiritual experience claimed (for example, if an individual claims that they were visited by a dead relative, the relative might relate to that individual facts that only the relative could have known, which could then be checked as to their validity, say the combination and location of a lost or forgotten safe with personal effects and currency locked inside.).

2. This question might need to be re-phrased. If the spiritual events and angelic visits are a product of natural brain function, and do not actually exist in the real physical world, then no causality is needed. If this is not what you were getting at, please re-phrase.

3. There are quite a number of papers on this subject. When I have time to look them up, I will do so and post a few references. Why it matters is that if the natural chemically and electromagnetically induced perceptions and associated emotions are indistinguishable from "spiritual experiences" then why would one postulate some external supernatural source for these experiences such as a god or a ghost? (Occam would not be happy.)

Edited February 1, 2012 by Mariner

[Pahoran]

It's unfortunate that everyone isn't a graduate student in Neuroscience.

But this problem has more or less been solved. I think the biggest issue about "personal experience" (be it hearing a voice that you will be called to a position or whatever) is that science actually has shown that such "revelations" are a normal function of the brain.

Your brain evolved over hundreds of millions of years. What makes our brains different than the rest of mammals? Well for starters, we have this incredibly large frontal cortex that allows us to make decisions, process information in real time, and choose what we attend to. This evolution happened over a short period of time- just a few million years.

The rest of our brain hasn't gone away though! When you get a "flash" of insight, that's simply other brain regions that solved the problem for you without you realizing it. Why did the guy have a feeling that he would be called to stake president? Because it was obvious based on his actions and hard work in the community. His brain knew "this is what a stake president looked like" and "Hey I look like this" and did all the math without him realizing it. It's sad that you aren't giving your unconscious mind the credit it deserves

That's a very glib armchair-expert answer. It might work, if he were the only viable candidate. However, the fact remains that people do receive such promptings in situations where there are multiple candidates, and where some of the others would seem better qualified.

"Ah," I can hear you saying, "that's what the conscious mind thinks. But the unconscious mind picked up on other clues and did the math better." In which case "the unconscious mind" is merely a blank cheque you have written for yourself; you appeal to it as if it explains everything, but it actually explains nothing. And how is it that one person's unconscious mind knows what the unconscious minds of several other people are thinking, namely, those who choose the person and extend the call?

When you fall asleep with a question (such as "should I serve a mission" or "What is the structure of benzene") your brain works on the problem as you sleep- we know this to be true. This happens across cultures, across religions etc. etc.

If you think such dreams and flashes of insight are simply the work of god, then you need to explain why people have them to do horrible and very nonreligious things. Do you think God influences a serial killer to have a "eureka" moment on the best way to make a human being suffer? It's a very serious questions.

No, it is not. It's a glib, adolescent "gotcha" question.

If there has ever been any serious, non-polemical attempt to compare the two types of experiences, I have yet to come across it. The above is not an argument, it's a mere triumphalistic hand-wave. Before any "serious question" can arise from it, some actual analysis needs to be done.

So, has it?

In short, we are left with two hypotheses. I think we can reject the supernatural (which has no observable reason to believe) and accept the perfectly reasonable explanation that science has given us.

Science works, you monkeys!

You really do imagine yourself superior to everyone who doesn't agree with you, don't you?

What an arrogant little adolescent you are.

People aren't lying or delusional. They are ignorant to how the brain functions, have imperfect memories of events, exaggerate for social reasons, and are just generally wrong about most everything.

For example, you are generally wrong about most every arrogant opinion you advance about Mormon things.

This is why experiments and analyzations made by a LOT of scientists is better trusted than a single person.

A pity none of them are actually relevant to the subject at hand.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Deborah]

But this problem has more or less been solved. I think the biggest issue about "personal experience" (be it hearing a voice that you will be called to a position or whatever) is that science actually has shown that such "revelations" are a normal function of the brain.

And this eliminates prompting by the spirit in what way? I have no doubt that our subconscious minds figure things out before we do consciously. However, I also have no doubt that the spirit also prompts us and we can have some experiences outside of our heads that can't be explained by brain function.

[Eldwynn]

Pahoran, do you think you could have a spiritual experience without a brain?

If yes, would you like to fly to Seattle and be part of a study?

That's what I thought.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Eldwynn

[cinepro]

The tons of witnesses of the restoration stories. Are all of these people lying? Delusional? My wife tends believe that they "truly belive" they witnessed something, but really didn't. I have personaly never seen, felt or heard anything, but can't get myself to believe that so many people would make stories up like this. Do those that have left the church doubt all of these witnesses? If no, how do you leave knowing that they are true?

It's an interesting question and line of thought, and as others have noted, it can be especially interesting to put the same scrutiny on other groups of people with unusual claims and beliefs.

In order to put things in a proper perspective, you might want to research different factors in "eyewitness testimony", the foibles of human memory, and psychological conditions that can affect how supernatural events are remembered, reported, transmitted and understood over the years, decades and centuries.

You might want to check out the book The Varieties of Religious Experience. It's an interesting look at the kinds of things that can go on in other religions, and the kinds of things people say and do when it comes to non-LDS religious experiences.

[Eldwynn]

And this eliminates prompting by the spirit in what way? I have no doubt that our subconscious minds figure things out before we do consciously. However, I also have no doubt that the spirit also prompts us and we can have some experiences outside of our heads that can't be explained by brain function.

The problem I have with this explanation is that "spirit" could literally be anything, and we would observe the same thing. For example, you could say its the mystical Juju at the top of the mountain (if you were living in a primitive African tribe).

So we are left with two explanations. That such events are a natural part of the human psychology OR basically an extreme view of polytheism, where everybody's explanation is right.

[Deborah]

...do you think you could have a spiritual experience without a brain?

What has that got to do with the price of tea? Can you have a brain without spiritual experiences; of course.

LDS believe mind and heart must be involved in revelation so in no way do we eliminate the brain in receiving spiritual confirmation.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The problem I have with this explanation is that "spirit" could literally be anything, and we would observe the same thing. For example, you could say its the mystical Juju at the top of the mountain (if you were living in a primitive African tribe).

So we are left with two explanations. That such events are a natural part of the human psychology OR basically an extreme view of polytheism, where everybody's explanation is right.

I am one man...but each of my children see me differently and have their own personal relationship with me. My 5.75 granddaughters all see me as there hero and all theirs. I assure you there is no polydadism or polypapaism, and yet there is.

[Pahoran]

Pahoran, do you think you could have a spiritual experience without a brain?

No.

Eldwynn, do you think you could experience having your thumb whacked by a hammer, without a brain?

If not, does that mean the brain manufactured the experience, or might it still reflect some reality external to the brain?

Take your time. Think about it.

If yes, would you like to fly to Seattle and be part of a study?

That's what I thought.

Still relying upon the glib adolescent comeback, I see.

Regards,

Pahoran

Edited February 1, 2012 by Pahoran

[freedom_of_religion]

I suppose you must believe in UFO's, then?

I don't know, just because I haven't seen one doesn't mean they don't exist. If someone else says they saw one (or if millions of people make that claim) who am I to tell them they're wrong. I don't see how the two issues corrolate, but lets say I'm part of a UFO club, believe that others have seen UFO's even if I haven't, and then I leave the club due to whatever issues I might have. Do I call everyone's claims of seeing UFO's that I once believed bunk?

[Senator]

I don't know, just because I haven't seen one doesn't mean they don't exist. If someone else says they saw one (or if millions of people make that claim) who am I to tell them they're wrong. I don't see how the two issues corrolate, but lets say I'm part of a UFO club, believe that others have seen UFO's even if I haven't, and then I leave the club due to whatever issues I might have. Do I call everyone's claims of seeing UFO's that I once believed bunk?

No.

But is their reported claims of seeing UFOs cause enough for you to then declare belief that there really are extraterrestrial vehicles visiting earth?

Edited February 1, 2012 by Senator

[thesometimesaint]

Senator:

There are UFOs. They are are just something flying that is unidentified. Sooner or later they get identified.

If by UFOs it is meant to be creatures from another planet. They came, landed on the Washington DC Mall. They found absolutely no intelligent life, and left never to return.

[Pahoran]

Actually if he had any balls he could at least offer to fly to your neck of the woods. What did he says? "That's what I thought".

I think he was inviting me to fly to Seattle so I could have my brain removed as part of his "study."

This is evidently his idea of an adult discussion.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Hestia]

Science works, you monkeys!

Any more insults like that and you are out of the thread.