Duncan Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 What you were talking about sounded VERY much like stating that anyone that takes medicine is lacking in faith. If they had enough faith they would simply resolve their {insert illness here} by petitioning God. Such petitioning would never, if truly faithful, result in inspiration to see a doctor or take medication -- it would always result in immediate healing via divine intervention. People who ask God for help but still feel the need to see a doctor are lacking in faith.Right...One must assume that truly faithful people have no Band-Aids in their house, they simply pray their cuts away. Truly faithful people may be alarmed by large gushes of blood flowing from a wound, but they have no need to use their hands to apply pressure because their arms should really be folded in prayer until the blood stops.Please reconsider such preaching and its effects. Read this post as well...that's how i read it as well. Sadly I know people who believe this type of thing. One guy in my folk's ward won't take his meds because of some "if only you had..." On another note a friend of mine some years ago stated in gospel doctrine that if your kid fell down and cut themselves on sunday it would be breaking the sabbath to get them checked out medically. That would be abuse IMO to do nothing and have your kids bleeding everywhere. You could be charged with neglect. This same person has no kids, said he wants to be a GA and is now totally inactive, totally.
TAO Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) If the answer to any of these questions is "yes," why does God allow these emotional handicaps to befall His people (or are His people immune, and is suffering from such a handicap evidence that the sufferer isn't one of God's people)?For the simple reason that it will help us, in the long run.You'll notice, some days 'just stink'. Is it because we are unrighteous? Sometimes. But sometimes not too. Sometimes God is just giving us tests and trials like said we would; he is giving us what we need to improve and become more like him.Why do I have weaknesses? Why do I have troubles? Why do I have conditions? Why do I have trials?It's so I can be humble, and have faith in him, and through that become strong, and improve.I have some pretty bad weaknesses... yeah. But it's my job - and duty - to overcome them. No matter what they are. Because God has ordained my trials for me, I believe. He has said, these are the things you need to go through; this is your limit... and this is where you need to reach. Now, just do it.You'll notice in the story of the prodigal son, about Christ welcoming back his son. But you will also notice the other son... who had been righteous all that time... and yet was envious, of not recieving a greater reward than the prodigal son. He was envious that he was not able to have both worlds - even for a tiny bit. But we must remember, always in our lives, to be sastified with what we have, at least trial wise.Our trials, I guess are ours to deal with. Other people's trials are their's to deal with. And yes, we can help them... but they must make the final choice. It isn't unfair for us to recieve different trials... it is for our own good... because we are all a bit different in the long run and need slightly different things =). And, we will be the better for it, I think.'I'm sorry if that seems a bit harsh =p.Best of Wishes,Your Friend,-TAO Edited January 23, 2012 by TAO
Storm Rider Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 By the rule of language and grammar and rhetoric and historical and precedent etc. Ultimately, nothing is impossible to him that believeth (Matthew 17:20). There are no exceptions to the rule.I think there are a lot of limitations to the rule and they have all be born out in the lives of the prophets and the apostles. It is not only death that causes the exception; the will of our Father also does. The purpose of this life is for opposition to exist, to be active consistently and constantly in our lives. If faith was to be a panacea for all problems, i.e. to take them away or to overcome them, then the purpose of this life would be forfeit.One of my favortie stories is in one of S. Robinson's books Believing Christ. It was about the woman in a wheel chair who prayed her entire life to walk. God denied her prayers utterly and completely. Yet, she never lost her faith in her God. As long as she could have the sweet name of Jesus on her lips was sufficient for her, even with the denial of her prayers.To move a mountain is most often not by moving it all at once, but by moving one grain of dirt or sand at a time. At that rate it may appear that by the end of our lives the mountain has not moved at all, but our effort does not go unrewarded.For those who have suffered from severe depression and as soon as we become aware of our condition, we are responsible for eating right, exercising often, sleeping properly, and taking medication as directed. If we do not do these things, of which we are in our control, then we are not fulfilling our responsiblity. Faith helps us to keep taking one more step, but faith does not remove all that troubles us and it is not supposed to do so. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Zerinus, I have an idea: you should become a faith-healing televangelist and start your own (snake-handling) church.
Senator Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Every written or spoken word has a context that qualifies or determines its meaning; and they are not all the same.There may be exceptions to the rule; but the rule is not changed because of the exceptions. The rule remains the same. The rule is that he who has faith to be healed will be healed, period. If there are exceptions, well, they are exceptions, not the rule. That quote actually did have a qualifier which I had dotted out. Here is the full quote:"And again, it shall come to pass that he that hath faith in me to be healed, and is not appointed unto death, shall be healed" (D&C 42:48).That is the only qualification that the Lord has added. If He wanted to add other qualifications, He would have. I don't think we have the right to add to His qualifications.One thing this is telling me is that we as givers of priesthood blessings need to be more bold in prescribing death.
zerinus Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 No thank you. One nonsensical post from you was enough, spare me another.What you were talking about sounded VERY much like stating that anyone that takes medicine is lacking in faith. If they had enough faith they would simply resolve their {insert illness here} by petitioning God. Such petitioning would never, if truly faithful, result in inspiration to see a doctor or take medication -- it would always result in immediate healing via divine intervention. People who ask God for help but still feel the need to see a doctor are lacking in faith.Right...One must assume that truly faithful people have no Band-Aids in their house, they simply pray their cuts away. Truly faithful people may be alarmed by large gushes of blood flowing from a wound, but they have no need to use their hands to apply pressure because their arms should really be folded in prayer until the blood stops.You have committed two serious errors in this post. Firstly, I don't care what I wrote sounds like to you. What I said is clear enough, and it goes by what it says, not what it "sounds" like to you. Secondly, being "truly faithful" and "having faith to be healed" are two different things. You are the one who is confusing the two; I did not. What I said is clear, and so is the scripture I cited.Please reconsider such preaching and its effects. Read this post as well...No thank you. One nonsensical post from you was enough, spare me another.
zerinus Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 I think there are a lot of limitations to the rule and they have all be born out in the lives of the prophets and the apostles. It is not only death that causes the exception; the will of our Father also does. The purpose of this life is for opposition to exist, to be active consistently and constantly in our lives. If faith was to be a panacea for all problems, i.e. to take them away or to overcome them, then the purpose of this life would be forfeit.One of my favortie stories is in one of S. Robinson's books Believing Christ. It was about the woman in a wheel chair who prayed her entire life to walk. God denied her prayers utterly and completely. Yet, she never lost her faith in her God. As long as she could have the sweet name of Jesus on her lips was sufficient for her, even with the denial of her prayers.To move a mountain is most often not by moving it all at once, but by moving one grain of dirt or sand at a time. At that rate it may appear that by the end of our lives the mountain has not moved at all, but our effort does not go unrewarded.For those who have suffered from severe depression and as soon as we become aware of our condition, we are responsible for eating right, exercising often, sleeping properly, and taking medication as directed. If we do not do these things, of which we are in our control, then we are not fulfilling our responsiblity. Faith helps us to keep taking one more step, but faith does not remove all that troubles us and it is not supposed to do so.Thank you for your comments, but I take what the Lord says as face value.
thesometimesaint Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 So Pi is equal to exactly 3, and Pilot was literally a fox. :rofl:
Doctor Steuss Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 One thing this is telling me is that we as givers of priesthood blessings need to be more bold in prescribing death.Now I'm kind of nervous about the priesthood blessing I received wherein I was told that G-d didn't want me to be healed...*drafting last will and testament*
thesometimesaint Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Doctor Steuss:While I have no fear of death, I ain't volunteering any time soon.
JDave Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 You have committed two serious errors in this post. Firstly, I don't care what I wrote sounds like to you. What I said is clear enough, and it goes by what it says, not what it "sounds" like to you. Secondly, being "truly faithful" and "having faith to be healed" are two different things. You are the one who is confusing the two; I did not. What I said is clear, and so is the scripture I cited.Are you saying that you don't agree with my description of what you wrote? Did I not accurately capture your clear statements? I agree that what you saw yourself write and what it sounds like to others are two different things. So are you writing for your own personal reflection or are you trying to get your point across to other people? If you are attempting the latter, you might actually "care what I wrote sounds like".Because I am perhaps not clear on what you are stating, could you expound a bit on the below?Is someone that does not have "faith to be healed" therefore lacking in faith in any way?If I have "faith to be healed" and I pray to be healed, is it possible that God will inspire me to see a doctor?If I have "faith to be healed" and I pray to be healed, is it possible that God will inspire me to take medication?If I have "faith to be healed" can I stop buying Band-Aids or is that a little bit of a silly thing to ask? Does "faith to be healed" really not apply to abrasions?No thank you. One nonsensical post from you was enough, spare me another.Your loss. 2
altersteve Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) I believe God inspires doctors, nurses, pharmacists, dentists, surgeons, paramedics, and other medical personnel every day. Like so many other professions, those within the medical field exist by the will of the Lord specifically for the purpose of serving His children, and I have no doubt that our Heavenly Father expects us to seek medical attention when we truly need it. He has, after all, commanded us to keep ourselves healthy, so I believe it would be sinful to refuse to take advantage of a gift He has given us for the express purpose of helping us keep that commandment. Edited January 23, 2012 by altersteve 2
Storm Rider Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Thank you for your comments, but I take what the Lord says as face value.Tell me how many people have raised from the dead lately? For that matter, how many people have been raised from the dead by anybody in the last few hundred years? Better yet, could you tell me how many mountains have been moved by a anybody in the last few thousand years? Exactly how many of these miracles have you seen in your lifetime. What the scriptures say is true, but your application of them is, obvisouly, not in accord with the context or you would have mulitple examples to all of the questions above. Of course, if you are correct, then we must necessarily deduct that there have been not a single member with any faith in the last few hundred years and very few during the entire time that man has been on the earth. You tread on a very slippery slope and the logic is quickly observed.
Freedom Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Actually it does. The timing must be assumed to be immediate, unless otherwise stated or qualified. Since no temporal qualification is added, the timing must be assumed to be immediate. The only required qualification is faith. Nothing else is stated.Why?
Freedom Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) So you don't believe that God has the power to heal. Fair enough. You don't need to go through all that rigmarole to justify it.How would you respond to this talk?http://lds.org/gener...&query=healingsIf we can be healed from all ailments, why to prophets die? Why did their faith not heal them? Why was Hunter unable to walk? Edited January 23, 2012 by Freedom
KevinG Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Thank you for your comments, but I take what the Lord says as face value.In that case you had better pray your understanding of what the Lord says is very, very clear. I do not presume to know all of God's will and plan for me and therefore a failure to get what I want out of prayer does not shake my faith in the Lord or drive me to assume I must have some hidden or unrepented sin or lack of faith.I am doubly cautious not to presume that about others.John 9:1-3 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was ablind from his birth.And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this aman, or his parents, that he was born blind?Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the aworks of God should be made bmanifest in him.I have had members wonder out loud what I did to lose employment, suffer illness or receive setbacks in my life. It is extrememly offensive and shows weakness on their part not mine.
KevinG Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 It is part of themortal experience to have weakness, illness and struggles. God guides us through them, helps us over them and comforts us in the midst of them. He does not usually remove them from us without first allowing us to grow and prove ourselves faithful.
Kenngo1969 Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Zerinus, I have an idea: you should become a faith-healing televangelist and start your own (snake-handling) church. Zerinus doesn't like my idea? All I'm doing is suggesting that he put his money where his mouth is, as it were.
Kenngo1969 Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 OK, Zerinus, I have a serious question for you: What does the concept of "opposition in all things" mean to you?
inquiringmind Posted January 24, 2012 Author Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) Moroni 10:5 says "And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."Does "ye" mean everyone?Does "all things" mean anything?Is it saying that anyone who can't see or understand some truth is responsible for their limitation?Does this mean that there are no medical or mental conditions that could keep someone from understanding the Bible, The BOM, the D&C, and The POGP?P.S. My dad had a stroke a little over a year ago, he has a shunt in his head, he sometimes thinks I'm his brother, and he thinks it would be a sin for him to visit the Mormon Church (and told me with tears in his eyes that he doesn't want any sins on his soul.) Edited January 24, 2012 by inquiringmind
Storm Rider Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 Let's pull back from the individual and focus on the topic.
altersteve Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 Does this mean that there are no medical or mental conditions that could keep someone from understanding the Bible, The BOM, the D&C, and The POGP?There is nothing that will keep a person from understanding the Gospel of Jesus Christ except themselves. Heavenly Father will give all His children the chance to accept His plan for them, whether in this life or the next.
inquiringmind Posted January 24, 2012 Author Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) There is nothing that will keep a person from understanding the Gospel of Jesus Christ except themselves. Heavenly Father will give all His children the chance to accept His plan for them, whether in this life or the next.I'm talking about this life.Are there medical or mental conditions that can keep a person from understanding the Gospel in this life?What about Altzheimer's, Autism, and Schizophrenia?...except themselves...So are these conditions (ultimately) self-imposed? Edited January 24, 2012 by inquiringmind
JDave Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 Moroni 10:5 says "And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."Is it saying that anyone who can't see or understand some truth is responsible for their limitation?I believe it is describing the method to know all things (by the power of the Holy Ghost) and it is stating that mankind may receive that gift. But if not... There is a wonderful talk from General Conference with that title, "But If Not...". A pertinent portion from that talk reads,Our scriptures and our history are replete with accounts of God’s great men and women who believed that He would deliver them, but if not, they demonstrated that they would trust and be true. He has the power, but it’s our test.Our God will deliver us from sickness and disease, but if not … we will have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, knowing that if we do all we can do, we will, in His time and in His way, be delivered and receive all that He has. I so testify in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.Does this mean that there are no medical or mental conditions that could keep someone from understanding the Bible, The BOM, the D&C, and The POGP?Of course not. I have a really good friend with Down Syndrome who is over 20 years old. She will never receive the covenant of baptism in this life because she just doesn't understand. 2
inquiringmind Posted January 24, 2012 Author Posted January 24, 2012 I believe it is describing the method to know all things (by the power of the Holy Ghost) and it is stating that mankind may receive that gift. But if not... There is a wonderful talk from General Conference with that title, "But If Not...". A pertinent portion from that talk reads,Of course not. I have a really good friend with Down Syndrome who is over 20 years old. She will never receive the covenant of baptism in this life because she just doesn't understand.Thank you.You seem to have understood the question, and I appreciate your thoughtful answer.
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