Religious Bigotry In A University Classroom?

[CQUIRK]

Since the topic is now "discriminatory" policies at BYU -how about we also talk about the similar policies, or requirements, at other private and/or religious colleges elsewhere in the US.

After all, BYU isn't the only such educational institution out there with certain high standards.

[Doctor Steuss]

Sigh, blind leading the inarticulate.......

I suggest a healthy dose of Locke regarding property rights, and then understanding how distinct environments allow for different rights. If I am a guest in a Baptist school and become a Latter-day Saint, I can be asked to leave, it is their right, I am a guest with limited rights in that environment. In public school however must accomadate all, it is not "private". Its support comes from all and not a limited means, its work is for the public and not private groups.

I hope I'm the blind one, as my father would disown me if he found out I was sullying the family name by being inarticulate.

Steuss seems to have taken it that you were saying he was stupid.

Sorry for the confusion (it was my fault for not using an emoticon in my post). My response was a sarcastic volley.

Hope all is well in your neck of the woods (or paradise, rather),

Stu

[Jeff K.]

insults aside.

what on Gods green earth does John Locke have to do with bombing abortion clinics and killing in the name of Jesus? Your zealotry to make up and take offense has now affected your ability to reason.

But since you brought up John Locke, I will offer what i know of him. John Locke, was heavily referenced to support the notion that Pre-Columbus peoples had no rights to the land upon which they had lived for generations.

Apart from once again your zealotry to take offense, it should be obvious that my comment had nothing to do with YBU, but rather my comment was in support of Doctor Stuess comment about christian terrorist. Though, we all have become accustomed to your reckless zealotry to take offense and issue insult.

Perhaps you should calm down a bit, I did not even realize Dr Stuess had posted something about YBU, until I read your diatribe contrived out of your zealotry of conjuring up offense when none is intended either directly or indirectly, perhaps you would do well to read and apply President Young statement about taking offense.

I took no offense. I but I presumed someone was very very inarticulate since you the constable are too cunning to be understood (to borrow a phrase from Shakespeare)

My zealotry is no much for yours and BYU, indeed your focus on it is that of a masterful zealot worthy of a statue on Masada.

As to Locke, he was a creature of his time. Enclosures (something unknown to Native Americans in much of the new world) ruled the decision as to who had property for what. An enclosure established ownership and "commons" could be enclosed by someone who could claim ownership. This meant that native Americans could be displaced since they had no property that was theirs, just land that they occupied. I would not argue that was his sentiment so much as a reflection of one of his positions used as justification.

[why me]

Marxist professors have been discriminated against for years. And those education professors who advocate critical pedagogy can get the short end of the stick too at hiring. This is also bigotry. But very few complain of it who are not directly involved. Bigotry shows its head in many places but if one goes against the dominant ideology the bigotry against the professor or teacher are not recognized.

[LeSellers]

She will also abide by certain citizenship requirements, and she will not seriously violate the religious covenants she has taken upon herself. If she breaks the terms of that agreement, the school is entirely within its rights, and, I would argue, perfectly justified, in considering the agreement nullified.

I'd say, "... the school is entirely within its rights, and, I would argue, obligated to consider the agreement nullified." The nullification was not anything the school itself did: the student nullified the contract.

There are too many others who could have worthily fulfilled the provisions of the agreement but who were denied a seat at the university, too many people who sacrificed to support him there, too many obligations to God, Whose money it is, to allow such covenant breakers to scoff at the very foundation of the school to permit such a breach.

Lehi

Edited January 25, 2012 by LeSellers

[Scott Lloyd]

He just likes doggin BYU.

Since a favorite pastime of Jaybear seems to be to rankle Mormons on this board — however unsound the argumentation he employs in doing so — perhaps it would be better if we didn't feed and gratify his urge with our responses.

Just thinkin' out loud here.

Then again, a little softball practice from time to time doesn't hurt, I suppose.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[thesometimesaint]

why me:

We studied the Communist Manifesto in the 1960's in Huntsville; Alabama. Must mean they/we are Marxist. :rofl:

[Jaybear]

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<p>I do not, however, believe that religious discrimination has a legitimate place in public, tax-supported schools.</p>

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<p>Am I wrong to assume that BYU accepts tuition payments from student backed by federal student loan programs, or that contributions to BYU are tax deductable? </p>

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<p>And, in my view, they should <em>have</em> it. Latter-day Saint tithepayers are under no legal or moral requirement that <em>I</em> can discern to subsidize the educations of non-Latter-day Saints or former Latter-day Saints at a Latter-day Saint school.</p>

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<p>I don't disagree. BYU is and should be free to accept only LDS members. Likewise, I think it should be and is free to kick out apostates. Whether it should is a different issue.</p>

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<p>However, BYU opens its doors to non members. The more relevant and interesting moral and legal question is whether BYU (or simlarly faith based insitution) can or should openly descriminate based on the religion or lack thereof of the <strong>nonmember students</strong>.</p>

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I think, to the contrary, that a department or college making decisions about tenure or continuing contracts has a very legitimate interest in getting rid of teachers who use derision and mockery as major components of their instruction, and I think that a tax-supported public institution (and particularly a community college like Mr. Derengowski's) can terminate the employment of a teacher who obsessively attacks a specific religious group with complete justification<br />

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<p>I don't think professors who belittle students are effective teachers, and should be weeded out as such. </p>

<p>It matter not one bit to me whether the professor is belitting a student's religous or secular beliefs. But as a pactical matter, people who are religous are more sensitive to criticism about their beliefs, and are more likely to complain where no slight was intended.</p>

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<p>And I presume that you don't contribute to its support, either. <strong>Yet you seem very much exercised </strong>by what goes on at my place of employment.</p>

<p>Your view differs from the view of those who own, those who lead, and those who pay for BYU.</p>

<p>Why do you care? What business is it of yours?</p>

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<p>Huh?</p>

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<p>You were the one who brought BYU into the discussion, by holding it up as an example of religious tolerance. </p>

<p>After I disputed that notion, pointing out the fact BYU has no tolerance for atheists or apostates (that don't play football), you asked me a series of questions regarding my personal views, to which I politely responded.</p>

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[KevinG]

What utter nonsense. You can be of any religion, philosophy or stripe at BYU as long as you agree to abide by the Honor Code (i.e. don't fornicate, drink or cheat). I know first hand of a Professor who was censured by the University for making intolerent remarks about students beliefs.

Having attended a state university and BYU I can attest to the environment being very similar other than the LDS Church and its culture being a handy scapegoat any time a professor or student gets their panties in a bunch.

Universities public and private are allowed to have behavioral standards. At BYU you don't get drunk and at University of Illinois you don't sneak into the South Farms and tip cows. Both will get you uninvited to attend the respective institution.

Jaybear and others need to come up with something more original than "so's your mama (church)" when LDS have a complaint.

Edited January 25, 2012 by DaddyG

[Jeff K.]

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<p>Am I wrong to assume that BYU accepts tuition payments from student backed by federal student loan programs, or that contributions to BYU are tax deductable? </p>

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<p>I don't disagree. BYU is and should be free to accept only LDS members. Likewise, I think it should be and is free to kick out apostates. Whether it should is a different issue.</p>

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<p>However, BYU opens its doors to non members. The more relevant and interesting moral and legal question is whether BYU (or simlarly faith based insitution) can or should openly descriminate based on the religion or lack thereof of the <strong>nonmember students</strong>.</p>

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<p>I don't think professors who belittle students are effective teachers, and should be weeded out as such. </p>

<p>It matter not one bit to me whether the professor is belitting a student's religous or secular beliefs. But as a pactical matter, people who are religous are more sensitive to criticism about their beliefs, and are more likely to complain where no slight was intended.</p>

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<p>Huh?</p>

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<p>You were the one who brought BYU into the discussion, by holding it up as an example of religious tolerance. </p>

<p>After I disputed that notion, pointing out the fact BYU has no tolerance for atheists or apostates (that don't play football), you asked me a series of questions regarding my personal views, to which I politely responded.</p>

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Sigh, softball practice again.....

While I am German, I usually prefer my red herring in the morning with a light dill sauce.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Jeff K.

[Daniel Peterson]

Am I wrong to assume that BYU accepts tuition payments from student backed by federal student loan programs, or that contributions to BYU are tax deductable?

I believe you're correct in both assumptions. But I don't think it follows from that fact that BYU is the functional equivalent of a state school.

Contributions to the Catholic Church are also tax deductible. I don't believe, though -- and, if we can get any hints from its recent 9-0 decision, the Supreme Court may not believe -- that being the recipient of tax deductible contributions puts an institution under federal control or makes it subject to federal standards for nondiscrimination with regard to gender, race, creed, ethnic origin, or sexual orientation. Thus far, at least, America still permits the Catholic Church to have a male-only clergy, and doesn't require it to ordain Jews, agnostics, Buddhists, or Mormons to its priesthood. In my circles, we call that freedom. There are, and there ought to be, very large areas of life that are not subject to government regulation and the rule of lawyers. Hallelujah!

BYU is and should be free to accept only LDS members.

Quite so. And yet, generously, it also accepts non-LDS students, and subsidizes their education.

Likewise, I think it should be and is free to kick out apostates.

Again, quite so.

Whether it should is a different issue.

Alas, those who own it and those who lead it and those who pay for it and those who attend it hold a different view on this matter than you do.

However, BYU opens its doors to non members. The more relevant and interesting moral and legal question is whether BYU (or simlarly faith based insitution) can or should openly descriminate based on the religion or lack thereof of the nonmember students.

My not so very interesting moral judgment, which I believe is also a sound legal judgment, is that faith-based institutions do most definitely have the right to discriminate openly based on the religion or lack thereof of their employees, students, etc. Jewish congregations, for instance, are entirely free to insist that their rabbis be Jewish rather than, say, Baha’i or Methodist. Lutheran seminaries have a perfect right to require their professors to be Lutherans rather than, say, Sikhs or Jains or atheists.

The just-released Supreme Court decision in the case of Hosanna-Tabor Evangelical Lutheran Church and School v. EEO, decided by a nine-to-nothing majority of the justices, holds that ministers may not bring employment discrimination law suits against their ecclesiastical employers. And this exemption isn't limited only to employees performing religious functions. The Supreme Court also ruled unanimously in the 1986 case of Corporation of the Presiding Bishop v. Amos -- yes, it was a case specifically involving the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- that the Church had the right to fire a janitor who had worked for sixteen years at the Church-owned Deseret Gym because he failed to qualify for a temple recommend.

It matter not one bit to me whether the professor is belitting a student's religous or secular beliefs. But as a pactical matter, people who are religous are more sensitive to criticism about their beliefs, and are more likely to complain where no slight was intended.

American law has created a number of special protections for religious belief (and non-belief). It is wholly inappropriate, and indeed illegal, for a state-sponsored institution to favor or oppose a particular religious belief or denomination except under certain very restrictive and rare conditions. And this is as it should be.

You were the one who brought BYU into the discussion, by holding it up as an example of religious tolerance.

I pointed out, quite correctly, that behavior like Paul Derengowski's is not tolerated at BYU. He would not have remained long on the faculty here if he had engaged in derisive, aggressive mockery of Islam, Catholicism, Buddhism, or any other religion.

After I disputed that notion, pointing out the fact BYU has no tolerance for atheists or apostates (that don't play football), you asked me a series of questions regarding my personal views, to which I politely responded.

Where is your evidence that BYU has "no tolerance" for atheists or apostates? Are atheists barred from enrollment? If so, I've never heard of the policy. Are they actively tracked or investigated? I've heard of no such case. Are apostates publicly flogged or subject to classroom humiliation? I've never heard of that happening.

***

For Maklelan:

Someone just pointed out to me the disingenuous "discussion" about this thread over at my Malevolent Stalker's board.

A word of advice, born of long experience: Don't waste your time. George Bernard Shaw's famous witticism is perfectly apropos with regard to the Stalker: "I learned long ago," he quipped, "never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

[The Nehor]

why me:

We studied the Communist Manifesto in the 1960's in Huntsville; Alabama. Must mean they/we are Marxist. :rofl:

Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist party?

[silvermoon383]

Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist party?

No, but I do have a list of registered mutants. Is that close enough?

[The Nehor]

No, but I do have a list of registered mutants. Is that close enough?

[why me]

why me:

We studied the Communist Manifesto in the 1960's in Huntsville; Alabama. Must mean they/we are Marxist. :rofl:

Was it taught by a Marxist teacher or professor?

[why me]

Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist party?

No way was thesometimessaint taught this book by a Marxist in Alabama in the 60's. And it is very difficult to find Marxist professors in the USA who are not on a "bigotry" list by conservative students. My point was simple: the word bigotry can be abused if people are not intune with the mood of a country,

[frankenstein]

Evidence that byu has no tolerance for apostates, persons who have ex'd, disfellowshipped, on formal probation or ASKED to their name removed from the records of the Church are not admissible.

It is incredulous to argue that byu does have tolerance of apostates.

From ybu honor code:

Students must be in good Honor Code standing to be admitted to, continue enrollment at, and graduate from BYU.... Excommunication, disfellowshipment, or disaffiliation from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints automatically results in the loss of good Honor Code standing.

Edited January 26, 2012 by frankenstein

[Daniel Peterson]

Evidence that byu has no tolerance for apostates, persons who have ex'd, disfellowshipped, on formal probation or ASKED to their name removed from the records of the Church are not admissible.

That puts you in rather a difficult position, clearly.

Meanwhile, I'm free to say, quite clearly and without any fear of truthful contradiction, that, while BYU feels no obligation to continue to educate apostates and etc. at tithepayer expense, it doesn't subject them to public or private punishment, mockery, abuse, humiliation, prejudicial grading, or anything of the sort.

It is incredulous to argue that byu does have tolerance of apostates

I'm incredulous that you find it incredible.

Jews don't ordain Baptists. Moreover, if an ordained rabbi converted to Evangelicalism, he would presumably be removed from the rabbinate. Does that demonstrate that Jews are intolerant of Baptists? Buddhists don't appoint Catholics as abbots of Buddhist monasteries. And it seems reasonable to assume that, if a Buddhist abbot converted to Catholicism, he would be deposed from his office. Does that illustrate Buddhist intolerance of Catholics? Should Buddhists feel obliged to permit Catholics to preside over Buddhist monsteries? Men aren't typically allowed in women's restrooms. Does that prove that women are intolerant of men?

Discrimination -- which is to say, making a distinction -- isn't necessarily evil, and isn't necessarily "intolerant," as that word has come to be used.

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Edited January 26, 2012 by Daniel Peterson

[frankenstein]

That puts you in rather a difficult position, clearly.

So I provide what you asked for and in response you suggest that I am some form of apostate. Your bluff gets called and in response you resort to insults .... Thanks for being true to form, oh wait I forgot you are ever the victim.

Meanwhile, I'm free to say, quite clearly and without any fear of truthful contradiction, that, while BYU feels no obligation to continue to educate apostates and etc. at tithepayer expense, it doesn't subject them to public or private punishment, mockery, abuse, humiliation, prejudicial grading, or anything of the sort.

I'm incredulous that you find it incredible.

Jews don't ordain Baptists. Moreover, if an ordained rabbi converted to Evangelicalism, he would presumably be removed from the rabbinate. Does that demonstrate that Jews are intolerant of Baptists? Buddhists don't appoint Catholics as abbots of Buddhist monasteries. And it seems reasonable to assume that, if a Buddhist abbot converted to Catholicism, he would be deposed from his office. Does that illustrate Buddhist intolerance of Catholics? Should Buddhists feel obliged to permit Catholics to preside over Buddhist monsteries?

You are suffering from same irrational mind numbing zealotry as other.

You are the one who suggested ybu has tolerance for apostates.

You asked for evidence that byu does not have tolerance for apostates, apostates can't even apply much less stay enrolled. I provided what you asked and in your irrational zealotry you go into the rant quoted above. Clearly you want a soap box.

Why do you feel obligated to insult a.person when that person provides what you ask for? I do notice a pattern among you zealots, if anyone does not demostrate Uber alles for anything remotely connected to the LDS Church, that person must and can only be an apostate or antimormon.

Your bluff was called and met and now you are mad about that, do act this way towards your students; the topic is bigotry in university classroom, and your online conduct shows you are not much different than the professor from the OP.

Edited January 26, 2012 by frankenstein

[Stargazer]

So I provide what you asked for and in response you suggest that I am some form of apostate. Your bluff gets called and in response you resort to insults .... Thanks for being true to form, oh wait I forgot you are ever the victim.

You are suffering from same irrational mind numbing zealotry as other.

You are the one who suggested ybu has tolerance for apostates.

You asked for evidence that byu does not have tolerance for apostates, apostates can't even apply much less stay enrolled. I provided what you asked and in your irrational zealotry you go into the rant quoted above. Clearly you want a soap box.

Why do you feel obligated to insult a.person when that person provides what you ask for? I do notice a pattern among you zealots, if anyone does not demostrate Uber alles for anything remotely connected to the LDS Church, that person must and can only be an apostate or antimormon.

Your bluff was called and met and now you are mad about that, do act this way towards your students; the topic is bigotry in university classroom, and your online conduct shows you are not much different than the professor from the OP.

You are way too sensitive. I didn't read anything insulting into anything Dr. Peterson wrote in response to you. He simply pretty much repeated what he has been saying over and over throughout this thread.

You can be rational -- I've seen it myself -- why do you have to be irrational on some of the oddest subjects possible? Are you channeling Jaybear or something?

It has been stated over and over again in this thread that BYU has the right to kick out students who do not adhere to the Honor Code, which is something that they promised to adhere to as a condition of attendance at BYU. The only people who seem to think that BYU has no right to enforce the conditions that students solemnly agree to adhere to are Jaybear and now you. Why? It's a similar matter with respect to simple membership in the Church. If a member of the church chooses to violate the sacred covenants which he or she voluntarily entered into, would you argue that the church had no right to excommunicate him or her? If a person gets a mortgage loan and then fails to pay it according to the agreement, are you saying that the lender has no right to foreclose? What if a renter stops paying rent? Does the landlord have no right to evict? Why is this matter apparently rocket science?

Although Jaybear has been saying that yes of course BYU has the right to kick the student out, it just shouldn't do so. At least that's what I am reading into what he's been saying -- and possibly you agree with him? So, I guess that if a person robs a bank, well, the government may have a right to prosecute him, but it just shouldn't do it -- it's too gauche, perhaps.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Lets stay on point. Peterson want to award BYU browie points for religous tolerence by its professors.

You tell me, what is worse:

1. A ocassional professor who might derides and mock a student who coverts to Catholicism;

2. An administration which would unequivocally kicks said student out of school.

BYU accepts students of other faiths...if you know of something then you don't know the entire story. The person in question in the OP is one of the most hate filled, vile posters I have ever encountered, his resignation shows this. He has a PhD from Liberty University (or so he says) which is known for such tactics. Also TCC is a Community College and makes no pretense to have any religious roots; to my knowledge. He once told me that (after 23 years of teaching which still continues) at a largest College in the State, as well as lectures at the University of Georgia and Georgia Tech) that I could not teach math because of my :"worldview". As you can see from my posts I do not teach writing and grammar.

[Darth_Bill]

What "worldview" could possibly disqualify a math teacher? The only issue I could think of is that cartoon where it shows a chalkboard filled with equations and in the corner the text..."And then a miracle happens."

[thesometimesaint]

We also studied Alabama ancient history. That must mean I'm a long dead Amerid.

No I've never been a Communist or a supporter of any form of Communism. I am philosophically an American "running dog" Capitalist. I just wish I had more capital.

Edited January 26, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

What "worldview" could possibly disqualify a math teacher? The only issue I could think of is that cartoon where it shows a chalkboard filled with equations and in the corner the text..."And then a miracle happens."

This was my response, I told him that my views would not effect mathematical formulas. Despite his PhD, he said it would.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

We also studied Alabama ancient history. That must mean I'm a long dead Amerid.

No I've never been a Communist or a supporter of any form of Communism. I am philosophically an American "running dog" Capitalist. I just wish I had more capital.

So you are Southerner at heart...great!