Religious Bigotry In A University Classroom?

[Pahoran]

Oh I get it. Since BYU openly discriminates against prospective Catholics students in its admission practices, it not descrimination to boot out a mormon student who converts to Catholicism.

Thank you for clearing that up for me.

Yes, I realise that you are relying upon rhetoric, and "discrimination" is a TTC that means "bad." But to discriminate simply means to choose between alternatives. The Church built BYU, and maintains and runs it from tithing funds without government money, and has absolutely every right to "discriminate" in how it spends its money on people when none of those people are actually entitled to it.

And the Church chooses to spend the bulk of its education money on students who are part of the group whose tithes provided that money in the first place.

It is mere demagoguery, trying to get a knee-jerk reaction, to call that "discrimination." But absolutely nobody expects any better of Jaybear.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

A couple years ago I posted on a prominent anti-Mormon who was teaching for a Texas community college and appeared to be actively spreading bigotry in his classroom. Several people involved in higher education chimed in and commented that his approach was absolutely unacceptable. It was recently brought to my attention that this professor has now resigned as a direct result of his bigotry. Apparently two Muslim students were particularly offended and interrupted his class repeatedly, finally storming out while one allegedly made a veiled threat to the class. A police report was filed, but one of the students who stormed out sent an email to the school and the students documenting the teacher's bigotry elsewhere on the internet. The school began to come down on the teacher rather than the students, and he resigned. I cover the details on my blog, here.

I cannot remember his handle at CARM, but he boasted of this for years there.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I cannot remember his handle at CARM, but he boasted of this for years there.

Now I remember he was Paul_D; I have not seen his lately on the boards, but he was quite proud of doing this and used to give regular updates.

[Pahoran]

I cannot remember his handle at CARM, but he boasted of this for years there.

It was PaulD. He was and remains a malicious bigot and cheap demagogue.

And those are his good points.

Incidentally, it's worth pointing out that Derengowski was not fired. He resigned and then immediately demanded his job back on his own terms; specifically, under conditions where he didn't have to be neutral.

IOW, he wanted the college administration to make the bully pulpit status of his classes explicit.

And he wonders why they wouldn't go along with it.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Jaybear]

Yes, I realise that you are relying upon rhetoric, and "discrimination" is a TTC that means "bad." But to discriminate simply means to choose between alternatives. The Church built BYU, and maintains and runs it from tithing funds without government money, and has absolutely every right to "discriminate" in how it spends its money on people when none of those people are actually entitled to it.

Lets stay on point. Peterson want to award BYU browie points for religous tolerence by its professors.

You tell me, what is worse:

1. A ocassional professor who might derides and mock a student who coverts to Catholicism;

2. An administration which would unequivocally kicks said student out of school.

And the Church chooses to spend the bulk of its education money on students who are part of the group whose tithes provided that money in the first place.

Right, its about the money. Even though non LDS pay a higher rate.

So then what is the rationalization for kicking out the catholic student who decides to become an athieist?

It is mere demagoguery, trying to get a knee-jerk reaction, to call that "discrimination." But absolutely nobody expects any better of Jaybear.

What a surprise. Pahoran goes negative.

[Libs]

I don't understand why an LDS student who converted to Catholicism would be kicked out of BYU, if the school accepts non-LDS students. Is there more to this story? Was the student expelled based solely on the fact that he/she converted to another religion?

[Scott Lloyd]

Lets stay on point. Peterson want to award BYU browie points for religous tolerence by its professors.

You tell me, what is worse:

1. A ocassional professor who might derides and mock a student who coverts to Catholicism;

2. An administration which would unequivocally kicks said student out of school.

Without hesitation I'd pick the professor who browbeats and bullies a student for his/her religious faith (as being worse).

LDS students who enroll at BYU do so on the condition that they will remain loyal to the Church while they are there. Failing to do so amounts to violating a contract.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

I don't understand why an LDS student who converted to Catholicism would be kicked out of BYU, if the school accepts non-LDS students. Is there more to this story? Was the student expelled based solely on the fact that he/she converted to another religion?

An LDS student who forsakes (apostatizes from) the faith is in a different category from a non-LDS student who enters the university. The student who apostatizes is, in effect, a covenant breaker.

[LeSellers]

LDS students who enroll at BYU do so with the understanding they will remain loyal to the Church while they are there. Failing to do so amounts to violating a contract.

It does not "amount to violating a contract", it is violating a contract.

Lehi

[Libs]

So, they actually sign an agreement that they will not leave the church while attending BYU?

Interesting..I didn't know that.

[Jaybear]

LDS students who enroll at BYU do so with the understanding they will remain loyal to the Church while they are there. Failing to do so amounts to violating a contract.

No, nothing manipulative or coercive about that approach: "Your not being kicked out of school because you joined the Catholic Church, you are being kicked out becuase you breached a contract."

[Scott Lloyd]

So, they actually sign an agreement that they will not leave the church while attending BYU?

Interesting..I didn't know that.

They agree to abide by the standards and teachings of the Church while they are there. Those standards include not breaking the covenants one has made at baptism and thereafter.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Pahoran]

No, nothing manipulative or coercive about that approach: "Your not being kicked out of school because you joined the Catholic Church, you are being kicked out becuase you breached a contract."

Specifically, they are being kicked out of school because they no longer meet the qualifications under which they were accepted.

Everyone who isn't massively prejudiced against the Church can understand that.

Can you?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Scott Lloyd]

No, nothing manipulative or coercive about that approach: "Your not being kicked out of school because you joined the Catholic Church, you are being kicked out becuase you breached a contract."

Like a lot of things in life, entering BYU has conditions and standards that must be agreed to in advance and adhered to so long as one remains. And no, it's not manipulative. One is free to leave at any time, or not come in the first place, if the conditions seem too onerous.

[maklelan]

Lets stay on point. Peterson want to award BYU browie points for religous tolerence by its professors.

You tell me, what is worse:

1. A ocassional professor who might derides and mock a student who coverts to Catholicism;

2. An administration which would unequivocally kicks said student out of school.

This is a bit manipulative. You ask what's worse and immediately expand the context to the institutional level ("an occasional professor" demands a much wider context). In other words, you're asking what's a worse university-wide situation; "what kind of university is worse," not "what kind of specific situation is worse." The university's implication in the professor's actions is marginal, but the professor's actions themselves are a different story. To answer the question of what is worse, a private religious university that expels a student for converting away from the school's religion or a state university professor that openly and repeatedly mocks and derides several different religions, the answer is without question the latter. You don't accept admission to a state school with the understanding that you will be mocked and derided for your religion. You do accept admission to BYU with the understanding that you will be required to satisfy specific ecclesiastical requirements. You don't get to complain about those requirements when you willfully change your circumstances. I'd appreciate it if you'd stop derailing my thread, by the way.

What a surprise. Pahoran goes negative.

You're the one who came in here to complain about BYU.

[Pahoran]

Lets stay on point. Peterson want to award BYU browie points for religous tolerence by its professors.

You tell me, what is worse:

1. A ocassional professor who might derides and mock a student who coverts to Catholicism;

2. An administration which would unequivocally kicks said student out of school.

Your lawyerly skills at skewing the discussion are here on full display. Let us correct your bogus dichotomy to reflect the actual situation:

You tell me, what is worse:

1. A tax-funded college that actively permits a professor to set up single-digit minority students for concerted, relentless abuse over their faith; or

2. A privately-funded religious university that accepts students on the explicit basis that their place at the university is subject to them remaining faithful to their religious allegiance, and has the vertebrae to follow through when a student violates that agreement?

This is the non-manipulative, de-jaybeared version of your question. So which is it, Jaybear?

What a surprise. Pahoran goes negative.

Even more surprisingly, Jaybear's unfailing pavlovian response to the letters B, Y and U is always negative.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Libs]

They agree to abide by the standards and teachings of the Church while they are there. Those standards include not breaking the covenants one has made at baptism and thereafter.

Okay, thanks. Appreciate the explanation.

[morgan.deane]

I cannot remember his handle at CARM, but he boasted of this for years there.

His handle there was "Paul D". I have several screen shots of his more egregious behavior. What particularly irked me about his behavior was how he would cloak his intense venom and outrageous behavior in a cloak of objectivity behind being a professor and PhD candidate. People who disagreed with him were accused of "terrorism" or threatened with legal action, and then he would play the victim. Just based on his behavior at places like CARM and the tactics he used against me I could have told Tarrant college what would have happened. But since I was ridiculed and mocked as a "terrorist" with a "vendetta" for reporting his behavior to his human resource department I am enjoying the vindication a great deal.

Edited January 24, 2012 by morgan.deane

[Jaybear]

Your lawyerly skills at skewing the discussion are here on full display. Let us correct your bogus dichotomy to reflect the actual situation:

You tell me, what is worse:

1. A tax-funded college that actively permits a professor to set up single-digit minority students for concerted, relentless abuse over their faith; or

2. A privately-funded religious university that accepts students on the explicit basis that their place at the university is subject to them remaining faithful to their religious allegiance, and has the vertebrae to follow through when a student violates that agreement?

Niether situation is conducive to a proper academic enviroment.

At the public school you will have mormons who are reluctant to express thier religous belief for fear of belittlement and perhaps relatiation.

At BYU, you have secret apostates who cant express thier religious beliefs for fear of expulsion.

If I were the student impacted, frankly I would prefer a verbal abusive professor over expulsion. Its much simplier for the mormon to conceal his religon for 3 hrs a week, or transfer to another class than it is for the apostate to carry on the charade of being a faithful mormon or to transfer to a new school.

So bottom line, option 2 is worse, and its not even close.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Jaybear

[Okrahomer]

Apparently, if an LDS student at BYU converts to another faith, it may not necessarily result in dismissal from the school:

http://cougaruteforum.com/showthread.php?t=27335

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So bottom line, option 2 is worse, and its not even close.

Couldn't see that one coming.

[bluebell]

If I were the student impacted, frankly I would prefer a verbal abusive professor over expulsion.

Isnt' the choice whether or not to be verbally abused or have to keep your religious beliefs to yourself rather than being verbally abused or expelled?

What it seems like you are saying is that you would rather be verbally abused than have to keep your religious beliefs a secret since you can't be expelled without first broadcasting your religious beliefs.

[thesometimesaint]

God forbid someone is held accountable for not living up to their commitments.

[Cold Steel]

Of course I would have rather seen him repent of his bigotry, act like a professional, and keep his job....

For people like this it's impossible to change. Many times they think they have a calling to use their position as a bully pulpit. In most cases schools ask the person to straighten up and act responsibly. That he decided to resign indicates that he went so far beyond the line that he couldn't "repent" (kind of like a scholastic son of perdition). Mormons tend to forgive and forget the slings and arrows that are our lot and get on with things. Muslims do not, and when Muslims get upset, people tend to take them very seriously.

This guy should have realized what might happen to him before he spouted off. He's undoubtedly the kind of person who shouldn't be trusted to teach. He should be able to land a job at Starbucks; there no one will care what he thinks.

.

[thesometimesaint]

Cold Steel:

Even Star Bucks would fire someone who kept insulting their customers.