Publishing The Temple Ceremony

[why me]

I find this truly appalling! And only the most devil-driven would publish it out in the internet!

I also hate the You Tube videos I've seen, with people showing the Temple clothes and how they are worn and demonstrating the signs and symbols! Unbelievable! Mockery at its finest!!

So technically speaking...there really is no 'secret' to our temple ceremonies anymore, its all over the internet! Has been for years! So anyone who still claims what we do is so 'secret'...it ain't no more! Anyone on the planet can look it up.

Sad

There are people who do not believe that the ceremony is sacred because they are not mormon. When we put ouselves in other people's shoes we can see that it is not that important for others and since they are not mormon, they do not think that it is sacred. So, reading it is just a curiosity for them.

I may feel the same when dealing with other religions and about what they consider to be sacred. However, I can respect the people who view aspects of their faith as sacred and treat their ceremonies as such.

But for former mormons to help get it on the web for mocking is quite another thing.

[why me]

As far as putting blame on someone, I feel most disappointed toward those members who deceive those around them, attend the temple, and break their covenenants by sharing the temple ceremonies. I don't really put too much blame on anti-Mormons because they are just serving their master. There is no honor in them nor has there ever been; they deal in lies, half-truths, and sensationalism.

I think that we can put antimormons into two parts: the former mormons and the people who never had much to do with the church and yet, still don't like it. The former mormons can be the worse antimormons because they have a vendetta or an agenda to destroy the church or mock it. The others just act on their own prejudice and they certainly don't think that they deal in lies, half-truths, and sensationalism.

[mfbukowski]

If a person steals a precious jewel and then sells it to fence who knows it is stolen property, are not both equally guilty? Is that so different from an individual who illicitly acquires the temple ceremony, and then turns it over to an anti-Mormon webmaster who knows its sacred nature but still publishes it to the world? I find such anti-Mormons who justifies their dishonest behavior contemptable.

And yet, as we know, we speak in friendly terms on this very board with one who makes money on such stolen property.

And many of us defend him.

[Nominee]

And yet, as we know, we speak in friendly terms on this very board with one who makes money on such stolen property.

And many of us defend him.

Hear, hear!

[why me]

And yet, as we know, we speak in friendly terms on this very board with one who makes money on such stolen property.

And many of us defend him.

Maybe. But I do believe that that he is not doing something dishonest. He is just being a good american supporting the benefits inherent in capitalism.

[altersteve]

My opinion: mocking anything considered sacred is of the poorest taste, and is something that no one who calls himself a "Christian" should ever do. Jesus would be absolutely disgusted by such behavior, especially since much of it is done in His name.

Edited January 15, 2012 by altersteve

[Nominee]

My opinion: mocking anything considered sacred is of the poorest taste, and is something that no one who calls himself a "Christian" should ever do. Jesus would be absolutely disgusted by such behavior, especially since much of it is done in His name.

Amen. I do wholeheartedly agree with your opinion.

[Bernard Gui]

There are people who do not believe that the ceremony is sacred because they are not mormon. When we put ouselves in other people's shoes we can see that it is not that important for others and since they are not mormon, they do not think that it is sacred. So, reading it is just a curiosity for them.

I may feel the same when dealing with other religions and about what they consider to be sacred. However, I can respect the people who view aspects of their faith as sacred and treat their ceremonies as such.

But for former mormons to help get it on the web for mocking is quite another thing.

I grew up in northern New Mexico. The Pueblo Indians around the area have a sacred place they call kiva in which they practice their most sacred religious ceremonies. They do not discuss what happens in the kiva with anyone. I feel no obligation to infiltrate their ranks, obtain their secrets, and publish them on the web, even though I may not agree with them. But who knows? I might find much with which to agree. A Pueblo elder, friend of my family and LDS church member, would not discuss the kiva with us, but said he felt very comfortable when he first attended the LDS temple. I am not aware of any disaffected Pueblo who has divulged his tribal secrets.

Bernard

Edited January 15, 2012 by Bernard Gui

[Xander]

Didn't think I was crying and complaining. How about calling them to account for their deceit?

So you're probably dealing with someone willing to lie for the Lord. So what? There are plenty of people like this on the Mormon side just the same. Joseph Smith lied about polygamy, John Taylor lied about polygamy, and I know more than a few defenders who lie regularly on apologetic matters.

But of course, we're not supposed to hold any of these people accountable for their deceit. Or at least, such attempts are not tolerated on this forum.

Personally, I don't understand why Mormons get to claim something is super sacred, therefore all critics have to shut their mouths about it. Just because you hold it sacred doesn't mean they must as well. I don't know why they demand so much respect when some of the same Mormons spend a great deal of time and energy mocking their Trinity doctrine, their practice of infant baptism, or any number of beliefs and practices they no doubt hold sacred as well.

I can't think of any other context where this tactic is tried, let alone tried successfully. Maybe politicians should start using it to silence up their critics. Just claim the issue is too sacred and sensitive for them to talk about. Then they get to accuse those people of "hatred" and "bigotry" when they refuse to comply by your rules.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Xander

[Bernard Gui]

So you're probably dealing with someone willing to lie for the Lord. So what? There are plenty of people like this on the Mormon side just the same. Joseph Smith lied about polygamy, John Taylor lied about polygamy, and I know more than a few defenders who lie regularly on apologetic matters.

But of course, we're not supposed to hold any of these people accountable for their deceit. Or at least, such attempts are not tolerated on this forum.

Personally, I don't understand why Mormons get to claim something is super sacred, therefore all critics have to shut their mouths about it. Just because you hold it sacred doesn't mean they must as well. I don't know why they demand so much respect when some of the same Mormons spend a great deal of time and energy mocking their Trinity doctrine, their practice of infant baptism, or any number of beliefs and practices they no doubt hold sacred as well.

I can't think of any other context where this tactic is tried, let alone tried successfully. Maybe politicians should start using it to silence up their critics. Just claim the issue is too sacred and sensitive for them to talk about. Then they get to accuse those people of "hatred" and "bigotry" when they refuse to comply by your rules.

Please don't derail the topic. An example of respect for the the sacred beliefs of others has already been given.

Bernard

Edited January 15, 2012 by Bernard Gui

[Xander]

Please don't derail the topic. An example of respect for the the sacred beliefs of others has already been given.

Bernard

An example of respect? We're talking about disrespect, and there are plenty of examples that prove the Mormon Church is being hypocritical here. But as I said, we're not allowed to discuss these things because if you call someone a liar on this forum, the recipient better be an anti-Mormon.

It doesn't matter if you think you're being sufficiently respectful of other's beliefs. What matters is if they feel you're being respectful towards them. I remember when on my mission we toured Toledo Spain and walked through some of the oldest Catholic Churches that are still standing. Most of them were not supervised at all, and so the missionaries would go into the Priest's confession booth and start mimicking a confession, then most of the others would giggle. I couldn't think of a single missionary who thought of this as disrespectful. I mean after all, we were told that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon. The Pope's hat has 666 written in Roman Numerals, etc. I was taught this repeatedly in my early years as a Mormon student of the apostate faiths.

[Bernard Gui]

I ask again, respectfully, not to derail the topic.

Bernard

[Xander]

Huh? I'm not derailing. You started a thread attacking people for being deceptive and disrespectful. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy in that. Obviously you don't like the facts I present, but you have no basis to claim I'm "derailing."

Mormonism is every bit as disrespectful towards other religions as some guy who tries to inform the public about what goes on in the Mormon temple. The difference is, Mormons think they get to decide where the line is drawn for both sides. The Temple is off limits because Mormons say it is too sacred to them. In reality, it is only sacred to those who have experienced it, which is a very small percentage of the overall membership. It isn't reasonable to say filming the Temple ceremony is offensive to all of those Mormons who have never experienced it. To me, it would seem that you should have a bigger beef with the hundreds (thousands?) of people getting married in the Temple, only to divorce afterwards. That seems like more of a disrespect towards the Temple than anything else.

[Scott Lloyd]

I ask again, respectfully, not to derail the topic.

Bernard

I agree that Graham is derailing the thread, so I hesitate to respond. I will only say that the sort of thing he claims he and his buddies did as missionaries would have been regarded as egregious in my mission. As a missionary, I would have endeavored to put a stop to it. Had I been unable to do so, I certainly would have reported it to our mission president, who undoubtedly would have disciplined the offenders.

So, for Graham to claim that such a thing is normative behavior for Mormons strikes me as disingenuous.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

but a few Bradys short of a bunch. Harhar! Does not having enough beans for a full burrito excuse the duplicity?

Bernard

It certainly does not excuse those taking advantage of it.

[Xander]

So, for Graham to claim that such a thing is normative behavior for Mormons strikes me as disingenuous.

It is entirely normative based on my experience and my experience is hardly limited to this one incident. Bruce R. McConkie's published slap down of the Catholic Church was a perfect example of what drove this anti-Catholic mentality that still resonates with Mormons today. I couldn't think of a single Mormon at the time who dared to complain about it. Instead, his book and opinions were embraced as acceptable in Mormon thought. He was only reprimanded by the First Presidency and asked to submit an edited version, after his bigotry became publicized and the Church was forced to go into PR mode. And that is to be expected from any corporation. But the point is his views were embraced, not rejected by the Mormon membership. When I went on my mission, the ward and my other LDS friends bought me a copy of his Mormon Doctrine, and they all signed it as a gift.

But McConkie was hardly the first anti-Catholic Mormon. His ideas are rooted in nearly two centuries of Mormon intolerance towards other Christian faiths:

"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, `since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: `There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.'

- Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon!"

- Apostle Orson Pratt The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255

"The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon"

- Apostle George Q. Cannon said, Gospel Truth, p.32

"You may get a Methodist priest to pour water on you, or sprinkle it on you, and baptize you face foremost, or lay you down the other way, and whatever mode you please, and you will be damned with your priest."

- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, 5:89

"...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century."

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167

"The Greek and Roman Churches, which have been called Christian, and which take the name of Christians as a cloak, have worshipped innumerable idols. On this account, on the simple subject of the Deity and His worship, if nothing more, I should rather incline, of the two, after all my early traditions, education, and prejudices, to the side of Mahomet, for on this point he is on the side of truth, and the Christian world on the side of idolatry and heathenism."

- Apostle Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses

As I was saying, Mormon bigotry towards other Christian faiths and especially Catholicism, goes all the way back to the early years. As a modern corporation with PR/marketing depts., the Church has become more "politically correct" in recent times, but my description of typical Mormon attitude is supported by the plethora of anti-Catholic, anti-Protestant references littered throughout Mormon literature. So you shouldn't be surprised when these threads designed to garner support for the poor persecuted Temple goer, aren't received sympathetically by those who are aware of the many ways Mormons have attacked and disrespected the religious beliefs and practices held sacred by other Christians.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Xander

[Storm Rider]

It is entirely normative based on my experience and my experience is hardly limited to this one incident. Bruce R. McConkie's published slap down of the Catholic Church was a perfect example of what drove this anti-Catholic mentality that still resonates with Mormons today. I couldn't think of a single Mormon at the time who dared to complain about it. Instead, his book and opinions were embraced as acceptable in Mormon thought. He was only reprimanded by the First Presidency and asked to submit an edited version, after his bigotry became publicized and the Church was forced to go into PR mode. And that is to be expected from any corporation. But the point is his views were embraced, not rejected by the Mormon membership. When I went on my mission, the ward and my other LDS friends bought me a copy of his Mormon Doctrine, and they all signed it as a gift.

But McConkie was hardly the first anti-Catholic Mormon. His ideas are rooted in nearly two centuries of Mormon intolerance towards other Christian faiths:

"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, `since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: `There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.'

- Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon!"

- Apostle Orson Pratt The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255

"The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon"

- Apostle George Q. Cannon said, Gospel Truth, p.32

"You may get a Methodist priest to pour water on you, or sprinkle it on you, and baptize you face foremost, or lay you down the other way, and whatever mode you please, and you will be damned with your priest."

- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, 5:89

"...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century."

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167

"The Greek and Roman Churches, which have been called Christian, and which take the name of Christians as a cloak, have worshipped innumerable idols. On this account, on the simple subject of the Deity and His worship, if nothing more, I should rather incline, of the two, after all my early traditions, education, and prejudices, to the side of Mahomet, for on this point he is on the side of truth, and the Christian world on the side of idolatry and heathenism."

- Apostle Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses

As I was saying, Mormon bigotry towards other Christian faiths and especially Catholicism, goes all the way back to the early years. As a modern corporation with PR/marketing depts., the Church has become more "politically correct" in recent times, but my description of typical Mormon attitude is supported by the plethora of anti-Catholic, anti-Protestant references littered throughout Mormon literature. So you shouldn't be surprised when these threads designed to garner support for the poor persecuted Temple goer, aren't received sympathetically by those who are aware of the many ways Mormons have attacked and disrespected the religious beliefs and practices held sacred by other Christians.

This is a comical summary and I hope you did not intend this to be a reflection of any type of scholarly work. First, McConkie's work was never viewed as coming from the prophet or the leadership. I assure you that it was viewed as his opinion. More important, to buy a book does not signify that you would agree with everything written in it. That type of assumption is pretty outlandish.

Second, please demonstrate that LDS maintain an "anti-Catholic mentality that still resonates with Mormons today". How did you measure this? How do LDS as a whole demonstrate this? Did you forget to balance your selection of quotes with all the positive comments? Surely you remember those? Or are you only interested in revealing half-stories?

I expect better from you.

[Scott Lloyd]

It is entirely normative based on my experience and my experience is hardly limited to this one incident.

And my point is your reported experience would be regarded as deviant with regard to what is acceptable and accepted in the Church. And my mission experience goes back to the mid-'70s, very much in Elder McConkie's era.

By the way, you may be interested to know that the font you have chosen shows up on my iPod Touch as this ornate script, which comes across as laughably pretentious (some apt symbolism there) as well as extremely difficult to read. Thus, I haven't bothered to wade through the bulk of it. I doubt there is much substance there anyway.

[Scott Lloyd]

I expect better from you.

Sad to say, I don't.

[Xander]

This is a comical summary and I hope you did not intend this to be a reflection of any type of scholarly work. First, McConkie's work was never viewed as coming from the prophet or the leadership.

This is beside the point. The issue isn't what the current Prophet says, the issue is where these anti-Catholic sentiments originate. And the sad fact is, they originate from Mormon teaching that dates all the way back to Joseph Smith. Don't blame me for stating facts.

I assure you that it was viewed as his opinion.

Of course it was. It was his opinion that was typical in Mormon thought, as expressed by LDS leaders before him. When he published a book professing to represent Mormon Doctrine, no one in the Church complained about it until the public caught wind of some of the bigotted comments. As I have argued before, this silly notion of "official doctrine" is something that was completely alien to Mormons at the time. Go ahead and dig through to digital LDS database and pull up all the instances in which "official doctrine" appear. You'll find nothing before the late 70's, because it is a recent apologetic innovation designed to avoid accountability for doctrinal statements by past leaders.

More important, to buy a book does not signify that you would agree with everything written in it. That type of assumption is pretty outlandish.

That wasn't my assumption. My Mormonism was primarily shaped by those Mormons who were involved in my conversion. I can assure you that they held McConkie and his book in the highest regard. Never once did I hear anything questioning his teaching or referring to it as merely his "opinion," until after I returned from my mission and I got involved in online apologetics.

Second, please demonstrate that LDS maintain an "anti-Catholic mentality that still resonates with Mormons today". How did you measure this?

Personal experience, obviously. I just moved from Brazil to Atlanta, and I can tell you that the anti-Catholic sentiment is just as strong in both areas as it was twenty years ago. In Brasilia I attended a get together at the Mission President's home, and he made numerous remarks about the Catholic faith as idolators, etc. I've also heard experiences from other people who have seen the same phenomenon in LDS chatter sessions. In fact, the only time I ever see Mormons pretend my description is nothing but a false caricature, are those on apologetic forums who have apparently taken it upon themselves to act as PR reps for the Church.

How do LDS as a whole demonstrate this? Did you forget to balance your selection of quotes with all the positive comments? Surely you remember those? Or are you only interested in revealing half-stories?

What "positive" comments could possibly outweigh the level of anti-Catholic intolerance expressed by past LDS leaders? And more importantly, why would an offended Catholic view these recent comments as anything other than an attempt at damage control for PR purposes? You see, you don't get to nullify the strongly expressed opinions and clearly bigoted views of past LDS leaders by pointing to some politically correct comment by a current leader. But why don't you go ahead and provide your list of "positive" comments about Catholics, so we can get a better feel for what you're talking about. I'm guessing they all come from the past decade, in the wake of concerns about past anti-Catholic remarks.

[Xander]

And my point is your reported experience would be regarded as deviant with regard to what is acceptable and accepted in the Church.

Obviously not. Though I'm certain the Church would never condone this behavior in public. It is a corporation with an image to protect, after all. The point isn't what the Church would officially endorse. The point is how Mormons typically act and feel towards Catholicism. I've been in the Church and around the Church long enough and on enough continents (three) to know the shared sentiment cannot be just fluke or coincidence. Hell, even our own MTC teacher told us gruesome stories about how an old Catholic Church in Argentina was excavated and they found dozens of baby skeletons, which according to him, was evidence that these nuns were having babies and then killing them. I had only been a member of the Church for a little over a year, so I was the only person in the district to challenge his assumption. But as my membership in the Church aged, I began to realize just how strong the Mormon hatred towards Catholicism really was. Of course, they didn't see it as hatred, because they were representatives of God's true Church, and Catholicism was the whore of Babylon. Their Pope had 666 on his hat, etc etc etc. I heard more anti-Catholic garbage during my two year mission, than I had ever heard in my entire life. So for you to jump in and say the Church doesn't officially condone this is irrelevant to the fact that it happened, and it still happens in the Church in every corner of the world, and the reason it happens is because members read past LDS teachings that foster such thinking. It all goes back to the restoration.The restoration can only be true if the world was in apostasy, which makes the then leading Christian Churches a bunch of false religions, which means they are led by Satan, etc. This is the train of thought and it is entirely logical, so there is little wonder why so many Mormons jump on the anti-Catholic bandwagon the way they do. If Heber C. Kimball and Parley P. Pratt and John Taylor could do it with so much invective, then why not anyone else?

And my mission experience goes back to the mid-'70s, very much in Elder McConkie's era.

Of course, I always expect an apologist to jump in and say "my experience is different," relying on a judgment call from a biased audience to determine who is lying. Ultimately you present nothing to refute my experience nor do you present anything to outweigh the plethora of anti-Catholic remarks published by past LDS leaders. To sit there are suggest these remarks had no effect on current Mormon thought, is just an insult to our intelligence.

By the way, you may be interested to know that the font you have chosen shows up on my iPod Touch as this ornate script, which comes across as laughably pretentious (some apt symbolism there) as well as extremely difficult to read. Thus, I haven't bothered to wade through the bulk of it. I doubt there is much substance there anyway.

Get a Droid.

[thesometimesaint]

xander:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Great_and_abominable_church

[mercyngrace]

I agree that Graham is derailing the thread, so I hesitate to respond. I will only say that the sort of thing he claims he and his buddies did as missionaries would have been regarded as egregious in my mission. As a missionary, I would have endeavored to put a stop to it. Had I been unable to do so, I certainly would have reported it to our mission president, who undoubtedly would have disciplined the offenders.

So, for Graham to claim that such a thing is normative behavior for Mormons strikes me as disingenuous.

Scott,

The kind of behavior Xander is describing was fairly routine on my mission also. Missionaries would pretend to cross themselves before prayer, they'd jokingly offer absolution, and generally just be absolute idiots when it came to other church cultures. I did speak up and my words fell on deaf ears. I attributed the behavior to the typical stupidity and immaturity of 19-21 year old boys.

I also agree with Xander about the culture wide disdain for Catholicism in our church. I too heard stories about priests and nuns that mocked their rites and commitments. On my mission, a letter was circulated that described demons dressing priests in their vestments. This was presented as a first person account by a former seminarian. I think McConkie's writings contributed greatly (and wrongly) to this dark side of LDS cultural thought and I also believe, thankfully, that this perception of the Catholic church is waning among LDS.

I will say though that missionaries were fairly indiscriminate in who they mocked. The name for Jehovah's Witesses in Spanish is "Testigos de Jehovah" which missionaries routinely and intentional misnamed "Testiculos de Jehovah". Vulgar on all counts.

That your experience was dissimilar is wonderful but my experience is sadly supportive of Xander's and I've been a member all my life - always actively attending - always temple recommend holding - attended church schools - served a mission - etc. In other words, I've got no reason to lie. I believe this was a cultural foible encouraged by statements by some influential church members and I don't think,if that is the case, that their is anything wrong with owning our mistakes.

[thesometimesaint]

May the Lord forgive us our faults and foibles as we forgive others their faults and foibles.

[Duncan]

May the Lord forgive us our faults and foibles as we forgive others their faults and foibles.

well said